S01E14 – “Mentorship” ft. Master J. Tebias Perry

OVERVIEW:

For the Season 1 finale of The Best Gay Sex Podcast, I’m joined by author and sex worker David Wichman to talk about sexual freedom—and why it matters now more than ever. Drawing from his new book “The Four Rooms,” David shares how surviving a rough childhood, navigating survival sex work, and finding queer joy shaped his radical vision of sexual well-being. We dive into why pleasure is political, how connection builds resilience, and why queer joy isn’t just a luxury—it’s a lifeline. Plus, David spills a few juicy stories about taking all the daddy d*ck he can handle (and why that’s self-care, baby).

TRANSCRIPT:

Trevor Hoppe (00:09)
Hey, welcome to the season one finale of the Best Gay Sex podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Trevor Hoppe. Today’s episode is about sexual freedom. You know, if you haven’t been paying attention to the news, you may have missed it. Authoritarianism is on the rise globally. So as we cap off season one, I thought it was important to take a moment and appreciate all those freedoms we enjoy. The freedom to express our sexuality,

the freedom to find joy in our own bodies, and the freedom to seek out and build connection with others that sustain us. The ability for you and me to wake up tomorrow and prioritize pleasure, both our own pleasure and our partner’s pleasure, that is a gift, and it is a gift we ought not take for granted. Perhaps no one understands that better than today’s guest, David Wichman.

David’s the author of the new book, The Four Rooms, an inquiry into sexual freedom and wellbeing. And in that book, he reminds us that sexuality isn’t just a matter of bodies. We have to think about it holistically, also in terms of our hearts and our spirits. He draws on a lifetime of experience as a sex worker, as a survivor, and also as a fierce advocate for queer men’s sexual liberation.

He reminds us that sexual freedom isn’t just a matter of being able to do whatever we want or whoever we want. It’s also about making space for all of ourselves, not just the good parts, know, the joys, the pleasures, the victories, also the messy stuff, the failures, the insecurities, the wounds. He reminds us that even the simplest act of seeking out touch

can itself be an act of resistance. So as we close out season one, I couldn’t think of a better note to end on. A reminder that queer joy isn’t just a luxury, it’s a lifeline. Let’s listen in.

Trevor Hoppe (02:19)
David Wichman, welcome to the Best Gay Sex podcast. It is a pleasure to have you on to talk about all that you do, including your new book, which we will get to in due course, but…

David Wichman (02:23)
Thank you, thank you.

Mmm.

Trevor Hoppe (02:34)
Let’s situate people, tell folks a little bit about where you’re from, where you grew up, where you became a little sexual human being.

David Wichman (02:42)
wow. That’s we just spoke about me talking all the way around the block. I live in Palm Springs right now. I have been here for 13 years. I grew up in San Francisco and I became a little sexual demon when I was born. I don’t know any better way to explain it because I feel like I have been.

Trevor Hoppe (02:49)
Ahahaha

David Wichman (03:09)
a lifelong sex worker either through survival, the type of work that I do, all the way through the type of work that I do today and doing content and all kinds of stuff. But it is, I have felt like it has either been the foundational part of my life, aside from the many, many years of drug addiction that I lived through. It was still a part of it. So I don’t know how better to explain.

Trevor Hoppe (03:37)
Yeah, little demon, grew up, so you grew up in the Bay Area, is that right?

David Wichman (03:41)
I did,

I did. was actually born and raised in Fremont of all places.

Trevor Hoppe (03:44)
Uh-huh. my gosh. Were your

first experiences then going into the city? Was that like where you would run off to?

David Wichman (03:53)
Early experiences were, although my first experiences were not. It’s kind of the I have this funny little story that I often remember for some reason when I was like in high school, I cruised this guy at a stoplight when I was walking down the street and he picked me up and took me back to his place. And yes, he totally did. It was like this guy, he was Middle Eastern and he was super hot. And we had this very hot, hot

Trevor Hoppe (04:10)
What?

David Wichman (04:21)
sexual time that I was traumatized by a little bit because I don’t know if I had ever been fucked before. And I remember him and it hurt and I remember him being, it’s okay, don’t worry. It’s okay. You want this, blah, blah. was, I was very young. I mean, I wasn’t a baby. I was totally looking for it, but I just often remember that guy because I just think

Trevor Hoppe (04:44)
Yeah.

David Wichman (04:48)
you know, because he disappeared into the ethers and you know, that moment was over. But yeah, that was my maybe that was maybe that was my first time getting fucked. I don’t remember. So.

Trevor Hoppe (04:53)
Yeah.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. But you knew you

were definitely attracted to boys from a young age. That was not a, yeah, that was not lost.

David Wichman (05:06)
yes. I think everybody

else knew I was attracted to boys at a very young age, too, because I was, you know, relentlessly bullied and my parents even called me a little queer and all kinds of, you know, little horrible things. So, you know, which I talk about in my first book.

I don’t know that they would refer to me as a little queer, but they would definitely make the references, you know. Anyways, don’t… The recollection is traumatic. I have a lot of trauma in my first book, so it’s a heavy duty read.

Trevor Hoppe (05:34)
Hmm.

I can imagine it sounds like there were some experiences that led you down your path. you, what, what, what were those first early experiences like? mean, situate us in terms of you’re picking this guy up at the stoplight. What year are we talking here? Is this the nineties? This is the, ⁓ okay. We’re going back, baby.

David Wichman (06:01)
goodness, this is the 80s now. I’m 56. I’m 56, yeah.

Back back. Even before the phone sex lines, well maybe they were there but I didn’t know about them.

Trevor Hoppe (06:10)
And was

It would seem like like the AIDS was like the backdrop for that experience is that

David Wichman (06:25)
⁓

Was it though? I think this is. AIDS was 1981.

But I really didn’t start seeing it on television and really becoming aware of it until I was like 85, 86. Because, know, Reagan and the media were silent about it for quite a while. And it was, and I was sort of in my, I was running away from home and living in foster care and very consumed with my dramatic.

Trevor Hoppe (06:43)
Uh-huh.

David Wichman (07:00)
you know, 15 year old life. So it was not like I was watching the daily news. And it wasn’t like I was really super aware of what was going on in the world. I was, you know, living in a very shadowy time. So, yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (07:10)
Hmm. Mmm.

Yeah. And

you ran away from home. Is that because of your sexuality?

David Wichman (07:23)
No. So I grew up in a very abusive household. I was actually escaped that household and lived in foster care for many years until I was about 17 years old. And then I aged out of foster care. And during those periods of time, I actually lived a really cool, fun experience in foster care. So I didn’t have a lot of sexual experiences in foster care, but I do remember

Trevor Hoppe (07:37)
Mmm.

Really?

David Wichman (07:53)
that I was like out one night. And that is one of the, actually had sex in a Bart, in a Bart station bathroom with some guy I met on the Bart train. You know, I’m in junior high, I’m in high school, know, sophomore year. So those early sort of hookup experiences, those random things would happen periodically. There’s actually an exciting story. These guys, these,

Trevor Hoppe (08:02)
Ahahahahah

Yes.

Uh-huh.

David Wichman (08:22)
girl and two guys, I actually, this is very eighties, they were dressed like the Thompson twins. I mean, literally like they could have been the Thompson twins, right? You know, and I was totally into that. And I used to take the Bart train from my foster home to the records stores in Berkeley and go through and look for my Stevie Nicks and you know, all of my divas records that were coming out. And on my way back to my foster home,

Trevor Hoppe (08:30)
⁓ my gosh. my gosh.

David Wichman (08:51)
these three picked me up and one of the older daddy guys, was fucking so hot. I was very attracted to him and he put the moves, they took me back to their place to smoke weed, And he took me into the bedroom and started playing with me. And the other two, the girl and the guy that were with him, the other queer individuals.

Trevor Hoppe (09:05)
my goodness.

David Wichman (09:16)
on the door and demanded that he get out. They put me in the car and drove me back to my foster home. But that stuff happened back then. I don’t know how to explain it. I didn’t feel like like I totally.

You know, it was like, this is an adventure.

Trevor Hoppe (09:38)
Growing up like in the Bay Area was, I think some people like, I grew up in North Carolina, so I imagine people who grew up elsewhere must’ve had all these resources available to them. What was like sex ed like for you growing up there?

David Wichman (09:51)
Well, what I remember of it is that it was available. I remember having to take a permission slip home to be able to access it, right? To be able to go like, your kid is going to be in sexual education and this. But it was all very. It’s a blur, but the little things that I remember was that it was very clinical and very scientific and it was very these are fallopian tubes and blah, blah, blah. And it was very textbook.

Trevor Hoppe (10:14)
Mm-hmm.

David Wichman (10:20)
And it was like three days. And it wasn’t. And it was junior high school, was seventh grade, and it was like, here you are. This is it. You know, and it was right around the time one of my friends found like a dirty magazine somewhere, like a hustler or something. And there was a naked man with a hairy chest and, you know, in it with a woman. And I was like, my.

Trevor Hoppe (10:23)
Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

David Wichman (10:49)
All of those, you know, all of that stuff came up for me and I was like, I really like that. So, but sex education in school was very brief and scientific. It was like taking a, you know, what did they call them? Assemblies. When you went to assembly, was like you go to science lab to talk about sex education. It was very bizarre. But that’s all I remember.

Trevor Hoppe (10:58)
Uh-huh.

Mm-hmm.

Uh-huh.

Yeah,

uh-huh. And you’re going out and finding other sources of information, I guess these like magazines and we’re like porn theaters? Is that still, is that a thing?

David Wichman (11:20)
Yeah.

Well, porn theaters

were around, which believe it or not, they used to be on every corner in San Francisco. Now I didn’t venture into San Francisco much as a high schooler. I did a couple of times and it was one time was really awful because like the BART train used to stop running at midnight. And so if you missed it, you’re fucked. So.

Trevor Hoppe (11:53)
Uh-huh. Yeah.

David Wichman (11:58)
Yeah, so I ended up spending the night at this guy’s house, this guy’s apartment, who was really super creepy. it was really, it was a weird experience. But I only started venturing into San Francisco when I ran away from the foster care system.

I had to go AWOL because I was aging out anyway and I was living with some other people. It’s just a complicated story and it doesn’t need to be in your podcast. I ended up in San Francisco when I was about 18 years old and that is when, you know, the drugs and the sex and the rock and roll and I was very much a wannabe hippie. I explored with a lot of psychedelic drugs in my high school years and

Trevor Hoppe (12:25)
You

David Wichman (12:46)
and San Francisco called to me. And I thought it was because of the free spirit of San Francisco, but also the opportunities for work because I wasn’t, I didn’t have a job. I was basically homeless.

Trevor Hoppe (13:01)
Mm-hmm.

So it sounds like in San Francisco, this might have been the genesis of your sex work career.

David Wichman (13:05)
Yes,

yeah, because sex work for me started out as a survival skill. It was something that I found out that I could do in order to at some points have a place to live, support my drug addiction, to eat, you know. So I would post ads actually and cruise men in the parks and and survive.

And that was how sort of I lived for a really long time in and out of relationships and these other types of experiences. But there was, you know, it was a very sexual time, believe it or not, even though AIDS was a big deterrent back then, you know.

Trevor Hoppe (13:46)
yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And when you’re saying ads, you mean like, are we talking classifieds?

David Wichman (13:57)
Yes, in the pack of the paper. Yes.

Trevor Hoppe (14:00)
What

would your ad say?

David Wichman (14:03)
⁓ man, I just found it too like three years ago. It said, ⁓ why can’t I think of it? ⁓ it didn’t say this, the thing that came out is young, hung and dumb, right? But it was, it did not say that, but it said hot young guy, hot hung guy. remember, right. Cause I could only afford the cheap ad.

I can only afford the text. Like all these other escorts and sex workers, they got to have their picture with their torso. This is so dating me. I actually, believe it or not, the Barrier Reporter has an archive of all of their papers. And by accident one day, I was looking for something completely different. I was like, let me just check. And sure enough, there it was. And I went by this name. I went by a fake name.

John, J-O-N, and I found my fucking ad. I have a picture of it. I took a screenshot immediately. I was like, oh, this is so wild. 1990 something. I don’t want to know. But it was a trip because back then you had to use a pay phone. You had to pay for a pager. And I never had money because I was always on drugs.

Trevor Hoppe (15:06)
⁓ my God.

David Wichman (15:22)
So my page would get turned off. was just, it’s all such a tragic story, but it was the first foray into survival sex work. it was, it isn’t where I realized, but in hindsight, I discovered the work that I do today was sort of found, it was so informative into the world that I live in now.

Because in the initial years, there was this resistance. like, I’m going to sleep with this guy that I don’t know. I don’t even know who’s be in 99.9 % of the time. You don’t. You didn’t know who was behind the door that you were knocking on. And you were just, you know, sort of. Praying to be safe, but then at the same time, you were excited and knew that you were going to get some money and you knew you were going to.

have some hot sex and deliver and get on with your life. So survival sex work is a very interesting.

Trevor Hoppe (16:24)
Hmm.

David Wichman (16:28)
education on sexual freedom, that’s for sure. Because it’s still happening today, you know, and it still has its place. It’s still vital and sacred in my opinion, it’s very important. Especially for marginalized communities of people, trans and other sex workers still do survival sex work.

sustains them rather than being.

you know, without any resources. So it’s really important.

Trevor Hoppe (17:04)
Yeah, I guess you’re distinguishing survival sex work from what you do now. How would you describe what you do now?

David Wichman (17:13)
Well…

What I’ve done for the past 18 years, is not, 17, I guess the first year of my recovery was survival sex work, because I didn’t really know. I had a few experiences, but one in particular that I had was with a man who called me and did not tell me that he was an amputee. And I walked in and I didn’t know, and,

I assume that he was a diabetic in hindsight because when I walked in, in early recovery, so I’m still very raw, and he removed his prosthetic leg and set it to the side and looked up at me and he was just like, is this gonna be okay for you? And like, I was, time slowed down, I was frozen in my skin, I didn’t understand.

you know what, what was happening, you know, like I didn’t get to pick and choose this moment. But something arrived within me that said, this is important. This man looked really miserable. He looked very hurt. He looked wounded. He looked as if he expected me to walk out. I’m assuming maybe even has had that experience on a number of occasions. And I put on my like,

Trevor Hoppe (18:34)
Mm-hmm.

David Wichman (18:41)
Here comes David, smile, and I was like, fuck yeah, that’s okay, let’s go. And I hopped on his lap and we started making out and I started playing with him. And when I say time slowed down, it’s because the memory that I have of that experience, whether it felt that way in that moment or not, is that it was almost as if the brokenness that I saw in his face and the sort of expecting rejection.

began to disappear and this sort of light come on. it was a pivotal moment, not only in my recovery, but in the work that I do in the world today. It was a defining moment. was…

It was almost like an epiphany or a what people in recovery and 12 step love to call a spiritual experience. ⁓ because I left there.

I won’t say changed, but a part of me uncovered, a part of me arrived that said, this is the work that you’re gonna do in the world that’s gonna matter. I get really a little emotional about it because it began to really matter to me. It began to become more about.

what I was learning in 12 step recovery about showing up and being of service and being useful in the world and having a function that says, you know, you can move on through another day without getting loaded. And, you know, I was doing a whole bunch of other stuff. I was walking dogs and things like that, but this work started showing up and marginalized people began arriving in my, across the thresholds that I stepped into.

and

I want to be careful how I say this because I was almost always excited about it. was like, awesome, I get to be that guy. I get to be this person. And it was a bit of ego involved in that at the same time, but it felt purposeful and meaningful to me. And I hope it always felt meaningful to those that I showed up for that were.

maybe untouched for a number of years, maybe isolated, maybe felt in a place of complete despair or invisible. And to a lot of people, not all, but a lot of people that I ended up working with, especially in my early recovery, seemed to be isolated, super overweight.

or in some form or another felt completely sexually incapable or unacceptable. And my job was to show up and pretend like none of that existed in the way that I would without pretending. I would see it, I would acknowledge it, but I wouldn’t make it the purpose for my visit. It was a…

Trevor Hoppe (21:45)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.

David Wichman (21:47)
I talk about it in the book a lot because I don’t know how to describe it, what it was or how it works. And I call it this sense of this sort of like energetic alchemy because I can’t describe it any other way because I’m still, know, like it’s one of the most frustrating parts about writing The Four Rooms was like, how do I really describe what happens in the rooms that I walk into?

Trevor Hoppe (22:08)
Mm-hmm.

David Wichman (22:13)
Because for years it was about justifying, about protecting, and I’m this person and this is I do what I do and you can’t stop me. And it became something much more deeper than that.

Trevor Hoppe (22:24)
Hmm.

Do you use the word sacred intimate to describe your work?

David Wichman (22:27)
I do not.

Trevor Hoppe (22:29)
Interesting. What, what?

David Wichman (22:30)
Yeah, I do not.

I know a lot of people like to use that word. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (22:33)
Yeah, it sounds

so rooted in a tradition that has echoes of that. So what do you distinguish as your work from that term?

David Wichman (22:39)
Yeah.

I’m a sex worker and what I do is I provide sexual gratification to people, to men that I work with and

Trevor Hoppe (22:44)
Uh-huh.

David Wichman (22:51)
And I don’t claim to play a part in their healing. I don’t claim to play a part in their uncovering of who they are and their discovery of their enoughness, their moments of being wanted, feeling wanted and desirable. Because that’s what I provide. I think a lot of sacred intimates also provide that.

There’s a part of me that has an opinion about sacred intimacy that is not negative or positive. It just feels healer, descriptive. It’s I’m this healer. I’m here to heal you. And the stuff that I do, I would rather call it more. And many sacred instruments do this now as well. It took a while, but I’d rather witness. I’d rather show up and allow what enters the room to enter the room.

and to be what it is without attaching this discovery or this magnificent change that arrives. more in the school of that person’s already there. They were always there and you’re beginning to uncover that is your work. It’s not mine. I just got to be a tool and an instrument and a witness to be present for it.

I will cry in a heartbeat talking about it because it’s so powerful. It’s such a, from that position of witness and not taking any, not accountability, crediting myself as being some part of their healing process, but just allowing myself to show up as an instrument is,

very freeing for me in a way, it also is, for me, allows me to…

Really.

embody that experience for what it is. Because sometimes it’s not always this ecstatic revelation. Sometimes it’s really difficult. Sometimes it’s really dark and shadowy. And sometimes it can go really sideways for people. You start uncovering part to yourself after you haven’t loved yourself for decades and you haven’t given yourself compassion or grace or the ability to be touched by another human being. And all of a sudden all the other stuff arrives.

And it’s intense.

Trevor Hoppe (25:27)
I guess I’m just struck because it sounds like you’re describing healing.

David Wichman (25:30)
Okay. I don’t even have an answer for it because I don’t have an answer to that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. it’s a word. I don’t know why. And I think because I have this idea around it that I don’t want to take ownership of being the healer. And my copy editor on the back of my first book.

Trevor Hoppe (25:40)
But I’m fascinated by that. I’m not challenging you.

Yo.

David Wichman (26:00)
called me a sexual healer and I didn’t see it until the proof came out. And I was like, how dare you call me a sexual healer? I am not a healer. Don’t you call me a healer. Isn’t it wild? So I don’t, that’s my stuff. And that’s why I don’t.

Trevor Hoppe (26:12)
How dare you!

That is fascinating!

David Wichman (26:24)
I don’t have a negative or positive or an opinion about being called a sacred intimate. Many people will describe the work I do as sacred intimacy, especially when I work with somebody who’s in their last days or hours of their life and things like that, which is really, that’s to me very sacred. I think all the work that we do in the world is sacred and important, especially if it brings meaning to us and to others.

Trevor Hoppe (26:49)
What lessons do you think you’ve brought to your sex outside of the sex work realm from, from that you learned in sex work? Mm-hmm.

David Wichman (26:57)
for myself.

⁓ yeah, well, that that I’m human and that I have this I can answer it really easily because what I notice, which is really interesting, is that I will have judgment. You know, like I’ll have a judgment about a person’s body or another person’s profile or what they say in their description or any kind of you name it. I’ll have a judgment about it. And then I’ll also have this like

immediate instinct to reject. And sometimes I do and other times I’m like, ⁓ there you are. You’re you’re you’re doing that thing that you, you know, hope that others will allow to happen, but live alongside of all of the other assets that they bring into that space. And so

And I also changed a little bit of my languaging about how I speak about the work that I do and the life that I live. Because I’m human, you know, and I get judgy. I get pissy. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I try to be though, God.

Trevor Hoppe (28:08)
Mm-hmm.

Amen. We have to give ourselves grace to fail and to be not perfect because we are not perfect. Absolutely. And thank God for that.

I know. I feel that.

David Wichman (28:25)
It’s folly

and it’s hilarious sometimes.

Trevor Hoppe (28:29)
What is sexual freedom?

David Wichman (28:30)
Sexual freedom to me is really about inviting in all the parts of myself in the sexual ideal that I think I’m working towards or coexisting with, especially the stuff that stops my feelings of being free.

my dick isn’t big enough or my body isn’t like that guy’s body or, you know, I’m not young enough. And allow that to sit at the table with the fact that I’ve had a shit ton of sex, that I have a lot of really great experiences. I have the privilege of doing the work that I do. So I’m already playing from an advantage. That my heart is filled with compassion for myself and others.

So I feel like that sexual freedom on the spectrum of moving through it, moving toward it, I don’t know that sexual freedom exists in a way that we would want it to exist, right? Like for everyone to have equal rights, for everybody to fuck whoever they wanna fuck, for everybody to do what they wanna do.

You know, I would love for that to exist.

Trevor Hoppe (29:44)
Yeah, so it’s not some,

it’s not an idyllic principle where we have a right for every other person to be attracted to us at all times, right? Like that’s not sexual freedom. But there is, I mean, there are questions that I guess I’m interested in, which is like, do you think we all, do we have a right to be desired?

David Wichman (30:05)
My hope is that you feel that you find that you’re desired.

I talk about it in the book a lot, remaining curious about what you desire and how you desire it.

I like for that adventure to be uncovered in a way that is free of judgment. What does sexual freedom look like to you? What is it for you? In society and in the messages and in our imprints and in the messages that we get from the outside world, you could be the hottest, most idyllic person there is and still feel undesirable.

And digging around in that, how do I describe it in the book? I describe it as like an archaeologist digging around in that rubble and looking for those little treasures are the ideas that I try to present that that’s our journey, right? That’s our individual journey. It’s wonderful when another person validates us and says, you’re desirable.

in whatever ways that they do that. And it could be a thousand different ways. And, you know, we idolize people a lot these days, these hot porn stars and the, you know, the cis white male Adonis has been the captivated ideal for such a long time. And now as we start evolving and moving through other body types and other genres of people’s bodies and genders, it’s

it’s becoming more exciting, and it’s also becoming more dangerous, and it’s also becoming more scary for a lot of people. I…

In the four rooms, you won’t find me making declarations, you know, because it’s a book on self-activation and self-discovery and uncovering parts of yourself that are in exile or that are unseen or that are undiscovered as of right now. so.

You know, I don’t know that I have an answer for what is sexual freedom in as a definition. I just know what it if I close my eyes and I think about what it means to me right now, it means, you know, a number of things for me personally right now, you know.

Trevor Hoppe (32:28)
Yeah,

I get that. guess I’m just thinking that a lot of people are probably, you know, concerned about the state of our freedoms in the world we live in right now. What can we do to protect and promote sexual freedom?

David Wichman (32:44)
There’s a part of me what’s going on right now is that I and and I said this earlier to you before we started the podcast is that I feel like this Sexual freedom as a form of resistance is almost becoming a catchphrase and it may be because my book and the algorithm is talking to me like that, but But no one’s talking about how You know just go out and fuck just go out

to the sex club, just go out and fuck your boyfriend or hook up, you know. If you keep having queer sex, you’ll be free. And I don’t know that…

But that’s available to a lot of people. There a lot of people doing self-activation work that doesn’t call them to those spaces, that doesn’t call people to go to the sex club, even though I encourage people to go to the sex club. At least once in your life.

What I like to talk about in the four rooms is about creating connection and creating community and doing what you can and keep creating. And that to me, I feel I remember when COVID hit and I felt so completely helpless. You know, I felt like what can I do? And I’m sitting in this studio that I’m in right now and I’m miserable and I’m not doing anything. Right. I can’t work, can’t touch people, can’t go out, can’t travel, can’t do anything. And I couldn’t figure it out.

After decades of fighting for our sexuality and our LGBTQIA rights and marriage equality and everything, you would think I would immediately know what to do. And I had to be reminded to join the ACLU again, to the Free Speech Coalition, to, as I can and as I will and have done, give money to organizations that matter and write letters to my senators, even if I’m from a liberal area.

and do things like that and make connections with the people I’m closest to, speak to whatever pod of people is around me, because that’s kind of foundational to moving forward. there are people who feel completely helpless and in fear all the time. And when you’re in despair and in fear, the last thing you’re thinking of is getting laid. And so,

If I’m not taking actions to feel on purpose in the world, and I want to talk about this a little bit, then I’m also not allowing myself to be touched. And in my perspective and in the world I live in, if I’m not being touched, even if I’m not self-pleasure, hooking up, fucking with my boyfriend or…

my fuck buddies ⁓ i’m

Placing myself in a position to become in a very unhealthy state of being. And it perpetuates more despair and loneliness and isolation. And so I always say, create connections, do things you’ve never done. In the book, I talk a little bit about how difficult it is to really sit down and tell people that you love how much you love them and about how much they mean to you.

Trevor Hoppe (36:16)
Mm-hmm.

David Wichman (36:17)
Like

I literally intentionally stop what you’re doing and pick up the phone or when you run into Joe Schmoe and you say, know what I got to, I just want to take a moment right now. I want to stop everything. And I want to tell you how much I love you and how important you are to me. And I cannot tell you how

freeing that is and how difficult and rare it can be sometimes for us to get really caught up in protesting and anxiety and doom scrolling and all of that other stuff and living in, you know, the room of the thinking mind, which is one of the sections of the book, we’re obsessed. And if we’re not visiting all four rooms, including the room with the body, it is my contention.

that we are betraying ourselves in a way that can create a sense of not enoughness, less wellbeing.

Trevor Hoppe (37:20)
Well, think,

you know, community is the only thing that’s going to save us for me. So I think you have to have community as a foundation. And so building those connections, sexual or not, and they can be sexual. think people don’t appreciate that a sexual community can be strong. ⁓ and those bonds can, can really do, you know, collectively a lot. So I appreciate that, that we have to.

David Wichman (37:24)
Mm. Mm.

Yeah.

yes.

Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (37:46)
look inwards to our own community and get that house in order in some ways and invest in that community to have a foundation to build any state of sexual freedom from, because if we don’t have those bonds, then what will that freedom get us, guess. So I definitely appreciate that. just think it’s a…

David Wichman (37:52)
Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (38:09)
You know, it’s, it’s, so many bold assertions happening every day about the state of our freedom, how much freedom we have or we don’t have. And it, and it’s hard to kind of put your finger on it, but it definitely feels like we want to be mindful of obviously the political climate we’re in. ⁓ but we also have to have some space outside of that. It’s, it’s kind of a.

can feel paralyzing that sort of conflict, I guess.

David Wichman (38:43)
I, you probably remember Dan Savage said that quote recently, the next four years are gonna suck really bad, really bad. And during the AIDS crisis, we danced all day, we protested all day and we danced all night and we, because we needed to build the resiliency, we needed our queer joy in order to have the resiliency to fight and to continue to fight. And I think that that is what’s really important about that.

The catchphrase that I’m talking about is that your queer sex is a form of protest is because in order for you to have in order for us to have the community to sustain the energy to keep the commitment to align ourselves with the people that we love and care about and that we want to protect, we definitely need to be able to build that resiliency. And if you are not visiting the room of queer joy,

your body, your emotions, your sacredness, you’re running on fumes in my personal experience. You’re hiding out in the internet, which I love to do. It’s such a drug for me. Yes, yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (39:58)
Yeah, ⁓ we all do, I mean, right?

So I always like to end with my favorite segment, is Sordid Lives or Untold Tales or S.L.U.T. for short. What’s the sluttiest thing you ever did?

David Wichman (40:03)
Okay.

Ooh.

⁓ goodness.

Gosh, it’s it’s gonna sound so vanilla. And I still do it all the time. I go I go to the sex club and I just because most of my work I’m top and I’m you know, the guy who’s doing all the fucking and I can get very ravenous and I will go to the sex club and I will take all the daddy dick I can get. Just

Trevor Hoppe (40:19)
I love that.

Yeah.

David Wichman (40:42)
bring it on. And I do it because it’s a part of my self care. It’s a part of my mental, physical well-being, my spiritual condition.

Trevor Hoppe (40:47)
Amen.

Absolutely.

David Wichman (40:56)
Take loads!

Trevor Hoppe (40:59)
You know, it’s a homeopathic anti-depressant. It’s all sorts of good for you. Semen is never… Well, I love that. Any particular club you frequent regularly?

David Wichman (41:06)
Yes it is.

Yeah.

Well, when I’m home, I go to 541, which is our new sex club in Palm Springs, which is super, super fun. And it’s busy and it’s super busy on Wednesdays at 10 in the morning till three in the afternoon for some reason, because it’s a, you know, we have people who live here full time retired. And if you’re a daddy lover like me, you’ll, you know, you’ll benefit great. Yes. You’ll benefit greatly from going. It’s like 10 bucks. But I like to get all of them. I like to go to all.

Trevor Hoppe (41:19)
⁓

Nice.

⁓

Happy hump day.

Okay.

I for that energy. Well, David, if people want to learn more about you and the work that you do, where can they find you?

David Wichman (41:45)
Get Get

Well, I’m on all the platforms under my name David underscore SF xxx. So if you want to see all my salacious content Go there. I’m on you know, I got the website David’s world dot me which is to get my books and to find out where I’m at and my events and things like that and I appear at a lot of sex parties like fornication and stuff as a performer still

to this day, which I love doing. So yeah, but I’m very approachable and I’m very reachable.

Trevor Hoppe (42:28)
Thank you.

love that. Well thank you for all you do to promote sexual freedom. I am grateful for that and all your work.

David Wichman (42:31)
Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (42:36)
That’s our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. And if you’ve been listening this whole season, I can’t express my gratitude more. It has been a joy and a pleasure to bring this information and these conversations to you, the listener. And if you’ve enjoyed season one, please, please take a moment out of your busy day and leave us a review on Spotify or Apple or YouTube, wherever you listen to your podcasts.

I would be most grateful for some positivity out there. It is really hard to get this content in front of people. There’s so much shadow banning, et cetera. I’m sure you can understand. So thank you for being here. And I would love it if you could help others get here as well. And of course, always as a reminder, if you are not having your best gay sex, I’m here to help.

My services as a sex coach can help you identify and overcome those obstacles that are standing between you and your best sex life. Find out more on my website, thebestgaysex.net. We’ll see you next season and I’ve got some great stuff cooked up for you. I cannot wait to tell you about season two, coming fall 2025. See you later.

OVERVIEW:

What does it mean to be a man? For many of us gay boys, masculinity wasn’t a choice—it was something we were punished for lacking. From childhood bullying to family silence, we grew up navigating a world that demanded we toughen up. But what if masculinity isn’t all bad? What if we can reclaim the good parts without the toxic baggage. This week, I’m joined by sexual health advocate and content creator Nolberto Gonzalez, who’s spent his career helping gay men cultivate pleasure, confidence, and consent. We reflect on our queer boyhoods, the pressures of masculinity, and how we can redefine it for ourselves. Plus, Nolberto spills on his first gangbang as a bottom—because, of course, we do.

TRANSCRIPT:

Trevor Hoppe (00:09)
Hey, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Trevor Hoppe. Today’s episode is about masculinity, a topic close to my heart, not in the way you might think. Like many effeminate gay men, I grew up a little, how do you say, limp-wristed, a little light in the loafers. I had this big goofy gran as a child and a penchant for playing with my neighbor’s Barbies, admittedly.

rather than my own Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, although I did like the turtles, not gonna lie. But when puberty hit my classmates, my happy life descended into a nightmare of bullying and beatings. My classmates called me the F-sler long before I even knew what that word meant or that I had something called a sexuality. I sometimes say that I came out at age 14, but that’s…

a little bit of a lie, like lots of effeminate boys, I didn’t really have the luxury of staying closeted or coming out. It was written on my face. Today’s guests may have grown up thousands of miles away in Puebla, Mexico, in a totally different cultural context. But we share a common experience of growing up as a little queer boy. Noberto Gonzalez.

is a sexual health advocate, activist, turned content creator who has made promoting healthy sexuality his mission in life. For over a decade, he has led erotic hands-on workshops tailored and designed to gay men called Sessiones Explicitas.

And in today’s episode, we pause to reflect not just on those toxic elements of masculinity that made our childhoods so traumatic, but we also brainstorm how can we salvage and recuperate those positive aspects of masculinity, and they do exist, on our journey towards healing. Let’s listen in.

Trevor Hoppe (02:22)
Nolberto Gonzalez, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast.

Nolberto (02:26)
Thank you for inviting me. I feel like very honored because I always like to talk with you. Our conversations are always fun, are always interesting, are always deep. And they have always this personal ingredient that is not just about theory, even if we talk about theory. And that’s what I think. It’s fabulous about you. One of the…

Trevor Hoppe (02:33)
It is a pleasure.

Nolberto (02:54)
hundreds of fabulous things to you all. So thank you.

Trevor Hoppe (02:59)
Absolutely. We met long ago

back in 2007 at a conference in Pueblo where you are from. So can you tell viewers and listeners a little bit about kind of situate them where you’re from, how, where you grew up and, where you became like a little sexual being.

Nolberto (03:03)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, I was born in Puebla, which is a very, not a very, very, very small town now. It kind of became big. Two hours far from Mexican city. It’s a very conservative place. It’s a very Catholic place. And I started to get involved in sexuality issues more like in the equivalent of high school.

you and when I started my university studies. First I was interested in sexual health in general and then my path went to HIV prevention and sexual and reproductive rights and then I started to do some work with my own body and my own image about trying to work some kind of some issues around about self-esteem in my image.

how I was perceiving myself and then I started to make some pictures of me every time with less and less clothes and then I started to make adult content and I was like balancing, know, like exploring both sides in parallel. Around these years, that’s when I met you, it was starting to get…

into conferences and seminars and all this academic stuff and in the meanwhile I was like exploring my sexual life first in terms of my body not just in terms of how it’s of how I saw my body or how I perceived my body but also in terms of perceptions of feelings you know like

physical pleasure and this elaborated pleasure. It’s a path that I have continued from all until today, of course.

Trevor Hoppe (04:59)
You, talked about growing up in Puebla and being a very Catholic conservative place. Tell me a little bit about what it was, let’s be like a little queer boy in a context like that.

Nolberto (04:59)
Wow.

Mm-hmm.

It’s very very very hard. It’s like like tons of people will be will feel related it’s a kind of a it’s kind of strange how lots of us have been like together in this feeling of isolation you know

Like being queer in a small place, in a place that is very conservative, in a place that doesn’t have a space for you. I remember, for example, every Christmas, I hated Christmas. And I remember Christmas as this period of time when I was punished for being myself in terms of…

you know, the big family gets reunited and here we don’t buy stuff for everyone because the families are huge in here. So we, we, what’s the word? We write down the names of everyone in little papers and then we give it. Okay. That’s, that’s it. So I remember that every year when someone got my name out of it,

Trevor Hoppe (06:09)
We call it a white elephant. Yeah. Yeah.

Nolberto (06:19)
They have a few weeks of course to buy a present for I remember that I was All the presents that I received were very very disappointed. Sometimes they were kind of cruel. I remember that I was like 10, 11 years old. And I received like a bucket of this kind of giant Lego that are for childs.

that I like in kindergarten because I was like, okay, these people doesn’t know me. And I remember when I was like 13 years, because I have always been like very, I have always you can always tell that I’m not heterosexual, course, you know? And that happens since I was a little child.

So I remember when I was like 30 years old, an uncle of mine gave me an image of Jesus Christ in a cross, like one meter tall. And I was like, okay, this is a statement, you know? And I was like, okay. And everyone else got phrases that they kind of liked because they have always…

Trevor Hoppe (07:19)
Wow.

Nolberto (07:28)
talked about what they wanted, they always talked about their desires, and they always talked about what they did, how they played, you know, as child, we give this information to the adults around us. But in some way, I always have this special treatment, and I was like, okay, I know these people just know me and just know how to treat me, how to face…

the reality that I’m putting on their faces. When I came out of the closet with my mom and my dad, I was like around 14. And it was a very, very interesting mental process that I went to because I’ve always been this anxious person. You know me. I have always been this…

Trevor Hoppe (08:07)
Wow.

Nolberto (08:21)
person with anxiety problems. So I was kind of into a girl during the school time when I was 40 years old. We were really into each other and my mom and my dad were very very excited about she and I being a couple or something.

Even if I was like kind of excited about this, I knew that eventually I would have relationship with voice. And in my head, there was a huge, huge horrible story about me giving the wrong message to my dad and mom that I was straight and then I had to keep on this lie during whole my life, you know?

And then I picture myself getting married for social pressure. And then I picture myself cheating on my wife and living with her with my kids to go out with some random guy in my 40s. You know, I was like a Mexican Telenorada. And then I, and the way I ended this Telenorada was coming out with them. I was like, all right, you know I’m into this girl.

Trevor Hoppe (09:17)
Yeah.

Nolberto (09:28)
I I have no issues with that. I hope you don’t have these issues with that, of course. But you have to know, you consider this warning if you want to, that eventually I will have, maybe I will have this with voice too. Sorry.

Trevor Hoppe (09:42)
what

a fascinating way to come out. You basically came out as like gay but with a girlfriend.

Nolberto (09:48)
Exactly.

And I’ve always had this openness. During some time of my life, I introduced myself as bisexual. Now I identify myself more as queer person. But politically, of course, surrounded by all these HIV calls, of course I’m politically…

Identified as a gay man because I have a lot of a lot of issues that crosses cross matter reality that it makes me configure myself as that but coming back to the Mexican telenovela of course, I that’s the way how I stopped it and That’s the way That that’s the way how I stopped how I stopped the telenovela

Trevor Hoppe (10:23)
That’s how it started? That’s how what?

Nolberto (10:29)
And that’s how I started to face my sexuality in terms of, so I think this is how, I think this is what life is about. Like facing the things as they are, maybe not trying to push things into categories or expectations or desires. And if I’m true to myself,

in this part, maybe the other will have the chance know if they accept me and to know if they there will be no false expectations.

Trevor Hoppe (11:08)
So

how did your parents react when you told them?

Nolberto (11:12)
was another telenovela. It was more like a serious and loud, and that was the second season. Of course, they sent me to the psychologist, of course. I went to the psychologist. She was a wonderful therapist. She was working in the clinic that we went to, you know, for the insurance we have for the government, you know, it’s a free clinic and they have a…

Trevor Hoppe (11:14)
Ha ha ha ha.

Nolberto (11:34)
access to she was very supportive and she was very wise and she helped me a lot to understand that there was nothing wrong with me. She said, and I have this tattooed in my said, I could help you to figure out if you’re into boys, into girls, into both. You have already figured it out. I can help you to figure it out.

Trevor Hoppe (11:46)
Good.

Nolberto (12:00)
figure out. If you are boys and girls and you feel some conflict inside of you, I can help you with that conflict but seems like you have this If you want you to talk to your parents about think I could help you to make a decision, to make what could be good, what could go

and you can make a decision. You already made that decision. I could help you to not feel guilty about who you are, not to feel less worthy for being who you are, but you have already done it. So it seems like now it’s your parents’ problem, and I’m very glad to help them if they want to come here. So I was like, I didn’t expect to get this reaffirmation of…

Trevor Hoppe (12:43)
Wow.

Nolberto (12:48)
Everyone out of my own head, you know, it was very life-changing absolutely that’s that changed my life and from this my I told that to my parents and The answer was so we’re gonna look for another psychologist and I was like Okay. Yes, they were like very committed to that cause They went to the psychologist they want to help but they

Trevor Hoppe (13:05)
no.

Yeah.

Nolberto (13:14)
they didn’t tell me. And you know the anxiety thing. Well, I decided, I think there should be a word in English. I decided unilateralmente, you know, like, just, I decided for everyone, I decided for everyone that I would never talk about it again until they come up with the issue.

And they telling me of course That they wouldn’t talk about the I would bring it to the conversation there was a six-year silence in my was a strange in my house during six years We didn’t talk about Anything more than the daily that’s when I started

high school and university. Of course it changed my dynamic with my family, of course. We were like strangers to each other. six years later, you know in Mexico we have this altars to the deaf people on November, Dia de Muertos. I started to work an association and we made an altar de Muertos, we made an ofrenda.

for LGBTQ people who committed suicide. We put it in a house of culture, it was a building in Puebla that works culture issues. It was kind of a demonstration. You get your group, they sign up and they show your

My mom went to that exhibition because it was a permanent exhibition and it was like a coincidence. I was there and she went into with my sister. And then that’s when she realized that I was doing all this stuff and that issue didn’t stop for me. did stop this conversation at home, of course, I didn’t…

Trevor Hoppe (14:59)
in those six years, yeah.

Nolberto (15:05)
I couldn’t stop working on it personally for a second. No one talked about it during the event, during the demonstration, you know? later at night, when I arrived home, my mom was washing I told him, well, thank you. So for what? Thank you for not making a serious scandal because that’s what you normally do.

you know, thank you for behaving, for being an adult. And she was you know, I haven’t talked to you about it and maybe this has been a mistake, but I want you to know that I’m open to talk about this every time you want to, that I been waiting for a chance.

from you to tell you that I’m more than okay with that, that I love you a lot, but I didn’t want to bring up to the conversation because I thought it would be invasive. And I was like.

You know, it was a very, it was a very strange feeling between reaffirmation, like, okay, I really wanted this. I can’t blame you for making this decision because in some way I made the same decision as you. In my mind, I was protecting you from the reality and in your mind, were protecting me from reality.

Trevor Hoppe (16:03)
Yeah.

Nolberto (16:26)
I can’t blame anyone but the culture. I just blame the culture. we kind of lost six years. After that six years, I had a full conversation with my parents. They told me they went to the psychologist and they loved her, but not as obsessed as I was with her. But then it happens that

they found a friend of them in the You know, there’s always this friend who has maybe not studies in some issues, but you give him, you give to that friend the ability, the title of that wise person, you know? There’s always someone who maybe didn’t study a lot, but there’s someone that you can fight, you know?

Trevor Hoppe (17:10)
Yeah.

Nolberto (17:17)
So they found this friend he has a very way He had a very strange advice for them but it worked in them and I’m thankful for they told me, we found this friend, we talked about this, we had just came out of the office with the psychologist like feeling kind of, you know, like confused and…

we saw this friend and he saw that we were like intrigued or worried and concerned basically what he told us was okay but would you love yourself right? He asked me

Yeah, but maybe people will treat him bad. Uh-huh. So, you love him, right? So you want him not to feel rejected on the outside. So you want to make for him a nice space at your home, right? And it was very effective for them. I think it maybe was a kind of a…

Maybe he speaks on their language. And I was trying to speak in another language, you know. Maybe it’s a thing between generations. Maybe it’s something that has to do a little bit more with maybe not trying to explain a lot of things, you know. And maybe that’s why it works on or on their generation.

Trevor Hoppe (18:18)
Yeah.

Nolberto (18:36)
I’m telling you to do this because I’m your mom and that’s enough reasons, you know? Maybe. Yes, exactly. And I’m very thankful for that. It took six years to get to this conversation, but I do feel bad about it. I feel that now my relationship with my father and my mother is great. I love my father. I love my mother with all my heart.

Trevor Hoppe (18:41)
Right? End of story.

Nolberto (19:00)
And they have known my boyfriends. They have known my spaces. Once I moved to Mexico City, they have came and visited. We have a very, very good relationship now. I’m still very far from my bigger family because I don’t think I…

Trevor Hoppe (19:18)
the uncle who gave you the cross

Nolberto (19:20)
Yes, I don’t know.

Trevor Hoppe (19:20)
you may be not so close with.

Nolberto (19:22)
Eventually some cousins come to me telling me that they had the courage to come out because I was the first one in the family. it also helped a lot that I was always this kind of nerdy, intelligent guy, you know, like a…

Trevor Hoppe (19:34)
That’s so great though

Nolberto (19:43)
this library mouse, have this expression in Spanish. And I was always that person. So I got good notes, was like, in my family I was known for the one that is going to be very, very intelligent, very successful and, know, smart and everything. So that was like…

the good quality that my family recognized about me and that in some way still put me on the map and I was very very happy that some of my cousins has reached me years before to tell me that okay I did it and thanks to you for doing something for not keep quiet

Remain silent.

Trevor Hoppe (20:30)
that’s really great that you were able to be that kind of trailblazer. certainly experienced the same similar thing in my family and my community where I was definitely ahead of the curve coming out at 14 also. So we share that experience. And I also, my parents took me to the psychologist also, and then the psychologist ended up being really supportive about the whole gay thing. It did not go the way that I expected it to or

probably the way my parents expected it to be honest. I’m grateful for that in retrospect. So.

Nolberto (21:04)
It’s

very interesting how we… Sorry, it’s just something that has just crossed my mind. There’s a lot of things that we need to change because it’s very unfair to put this pressure on 14 years old individuals. It’s very, very, very strange. And some things just have never changed. well, that was just the idea.

Trevor Hoppe (21:19)
yeah, I mean…

you’re growing up in Puebla, you’ve come out to your parents, but there’s the six years of silence. I presume probably your first sexual experiences probably took place sometime in those six years. Is that a fair assessment? What was that like?

Nolberto (21:45)
Yes, ah, that was very, very interesting, dad’s story.

I was in high school, I was 16 years old and I don’t know the age of the other guy but I’m very very sure he knew that I was underaged of course because they were in 2002-2003 to have internet in your house was a luxury you know

Trevor Hoppe (22:02)
Hmm.

Nolberto (22:17)
We had the cyber cafes. And you go around to computer per hour. And my God, feel like my teachers talking to me about the 60s. And then, and by that time, and at that moment in history.

Trevor Hoppe (22:28)
Right? It feels like a way, way back again. Yeah.

Nolberto (22:36)
We didn’t have apps in our cell phones. There was chat rooms. There was gay.com. And there was Latin America category. And there was gay men in black color. I remember that I was just… I went there. There was a cyber cafe out of my… just crossing the street.

Trevor Hoppe (22:45)
Yes.

Nolberto (23:00)
from my school. A preparatoria. Everyone is underage in preparatoria. So you do the math. So the guy who was in charge of the place, some time, know, some day I was like chatting with a random person because you have no information but the nickname. And yes, of course. Yeah. I think telenovela runs through my veins because I’m Mexican.

maybe and then in the momentary and then i receive a message and you insert the music of your favorite and then i’m the guy next to you with a i don’t know with a red shirt and i was like

Trevor Hoppe (23:25)
my gosh, that’s…

Nolberto (23:37)
You know.

Trevor Hoppe (23:40)
Whoa.

Nolberto (23:40)
I was very very

happy because I really like that guy. I found him very attractive. He had this nerdy look. He had a beard. He had a wonderful belly. He was cute. He was really really really cute. And I don’t remember how.

Trevor Hoppe (23:45)
Yeah?

Nolberto (24:02)
but sometimes I had to go to school on Saturdays for some signatures. Actually, I don’t remember clearly, but sometimes we had to go to school on Saturdays. And most of the things around the school were closed, and you have a lack of structure on these Saturdays. So I decided that I was…

trying to kill some time at the cafe and it was closed and I was getting out of the building where it was and I ran into that guy. I like I’m just gonna check some things in there so I will not be open today I’m sorry but if you want to join me to get these things you know upstairs just you and I was like alright that’s it yeah

Of course it was unprotected. Yes, it was unprotected. Of course I was yes. And I’m talking about 2002. It was way before prep. It was way before my first HIV test. It was way before a lot of things that I know now. And it was way before a lot of things that I consider. There are like a…

like the non-negotiable things that I have put myself in my sexual life. But there are things that I have solved later. In that time, I wanted to have this reaffirmation experience, you know, because I knew I didn’t feel pressured about there’s some experience that you’re losing that you have to, that you need to have now. I was like…

I wanted to prove myself that I was attractive to someone. I wanted to prove myself that someone would like to have this interaction with me. I didn’t want a boyfriend. a relationship. I didn’t want a happily ever after story. I wanted to feel desired. And that’s what I got. It was a sloppy yes.

It was it was not really really good He had one is the most gorgeous sticks I have ever seen in my life. I remember clearly

and it felt great. But yeah, it was the idea. But I have no regrets.

Trevor Hoppe (26:27)
What more can you ask for, for a first time?

Nolberto (26:28)
Yes, exactly.

I would have liked to have a little more preparation for that. You know, I have always been this very open person about things. So I wish I was the kind of person who would always carry condoms, for example. But I didn’t come up with the idea until that day.

So I was like, all right, I would have changed that to feel safer, to feel more secure, and to enjoy a little bit more of the experience, yes, because I was worried some days before, of course, I was very, very in terms of the experience and expectations, was absolutely satisfied, five stars.

Trevor Hoppe (27:14)
I love that. I love to hear that. that’s an amazing first time experience. I’m glad it was positive and fulfilling. Do you remember some of those early sexual experiences maybe that didn’t go so well that kind of you learn some lessons the hard way?

Nolberto (27:30)
yes, of course. And I had time to think about it. I had time, but there’s always so many things. The one that I have talked about the most, this year, some friends and I were talking about how the traditionally attractive people, know,

Trevor Hoppe (27:34)
Yeah.

Nolberto (27:50)
Egemonico? What’s the word in English for Egemonico? Egemonic? No. Egemonic, yeah. We have like this kind of… I don’t know. I won’t call it an idea because it’s more than an idea, but I won’t say it’s evidence. But well, you will get it as long as I start there. Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (27:55)
Hegemonic,

mainstream beauty norms is that is that

Nolberto (28:14)
Most of the time, the people that have the most of these attractive traditional features, most of the time, it looks like they seem to only need that and not to put some effort, not to put creativity. I’m just putting in here my attractive, my wonderful nose, my huge spectacles, you know, my muscles.

Trevor Hoppe (28:29)
Alright.

Nolberto (28:37)
And because I’m the ugly one, I’m putting all the effort, you know? So, we have this saying that handsome people have horrible thugs, basically. I remember in kind of these days, I was in Manhattan chatting in that siberica. Well, I had to go to another siberica.

So I was chatting with a guy that lived like two blocks from me, from where I was living. And it was this beautiful, traditionally beautiful, handsome man, very white skinned, you know, Mexico is a very racist country. Don’t let them try to convince you of the contrary. Very white skin, green eyes, a wonderful nose, very nice body, everything.

He sent me a message, hey how are you? Let’s meet. And I was like, I would gladly do, but I have to present a test in my school, so I don’t have time now. Can we do tomorrow? And his answer was shocking. I wish I could translate it fully. He was like, no, no, no, it’s not that I’m like you. I don’t like you, I’m just horny.

And I was like, how very down are you? know? And, course, yes, of course, I felt offended. Yes, of course, but I decided that that was going to be the only interaction. A few weeks later, he writes to me again, and I was like, oh, that was the guy who was rude with me.

Trevor Hoppe (29:48)
you

Fuck off!

As you should.

Nolberto (30:16)
And he invited me again. And I went.

Trevor Hoppe (30:20)
yeah, you capes.

Nolberto (30:21)
Because I always learned the

hard way. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I always learned the hard way. Yes, I don’t learn. I love to. I love the performance of learning even though I don’t learn. But if I enjoy the process, what’s the problem? So I decided to go with him. I entered to his bedroom with my backpack. I turn around to put my backpack.

Trevor Hoppe (30:26)
up in there.

Yeah.

Nolberto (30:48)
on the floor and started to get undressed. And he is on the bed with his niece in here, know, like showing his book, like, now do it. And like sniffing his, opening his bottle of poppers, you know. And I was like, okay, your mother ready, baby. I was trying to…

Trevor Hoppe (30:57)
Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Nolberto (31:09)
I don’t know, it wasn’t even my heart inside him. And he came. And I was like, oh. And I was like, what a waste of time.

Trevor Hoppe (31:16)
Uh-huh.

we have this song that’s from the 50s or 60s, I think here in the United States. It’s like, if you want to be happy for the rest of your life, never make a pretty woman your wife. And I feel like it’s kind of the same, same idea here, which is like hot guys are very pretty to look at, but sometimes they can be really fun, obviously, but they’re not always in it.

Nolberto (31:35)
Me- yeah!

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Trevor Hoppe (31:45)
You know, they don’t have to bring as much to the table in terms of skills and talent sometimes. on that body. Stop relying on that body is what, you know, the RuPaul expression. Yeah. So I feel that.

Nolberto (31:49)
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Exactly Yes, yes sometimes

Yeah, and I think it’s it’s very important to think that I always try to to to bring to myself What I think about other people? Even if I even if I Even if I’m telling you this story about this guy who was very very rude relying in some qualities of his body

I always try to think, have I some time behaved similarly? Do I have some behavior sometimes that may look like the same? And I think that it’s very important to think that maybe not about physical features, but I do rely on some qualities that I have. And I know…

that sometimes I have been abusive in that terms, of course. Yeah, I think I have if you want to change something, you have to acknowledge it first. So I was like, yes, exactly. And I’ve always tried to make this intellectual effort, but okay, there are some moments, there have been some experiences when I have tried to…

Trevor Hoppe (33:00)
You gotta start with yourself.

Nolberto (33:14)
take advantage of something or being unfair with some other people because I have pictures of the other think something important to think about. Exactly.

Trevor Hoppe (33:24)
We’re all human, right? We’re all human and we’re

on those apps and we’re horny. And sometimes we treat people with the same kind of disrespect that we get. And it’s really, you don’t even realize sometimes you’re doing it. There can be these power games where people play in terms of, you know, leaving you on read, like they’ll read your message, but they won’t reply. And you’ll be like, and then I’ll find myself sometimes doing exactly the same thing.

Nolberto (33:30)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Aha.

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (33:52)
For many different reasons. Sometimes you’re not being rude. Sometimes you just don’t know, you know, if now is the right time. you know, you have to reflect back on yourself and think, am I also doing and contributing to this pattern and how do I change it? And one of the previous guests, Shane Lucas, that I interviewed talked about looking for people that are curious, that want to know things about you and that you want to know things about.

Nolberto (33:58)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (34:21)
And I really try to keep that. It’s, hard sometimes cause people don’t like to talk a lot on those apps, but, but if you kind of select for people who seem genuinely curious about you and what turns you on and that you’re also curious about them and what turns them on, I think that can be helpful to weed out those guys like you’re talking about who are not curious at all. and, and not good fucks as you said.

Nolberto (34:27)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Exactly.

Yes, exactly. And it’s a lack of reflection, it’s a lack of curiosity. It’s like taking for granted that this thing will directly bring you to another one. And that this is all figured out because there is this other thing in the equation. And it’s just unreal. But some people take it for granted.

Trevor Hoppe (35:13)
Yeah.

Nolberto (35:16)
I can’t blame no one but the culture again, but well it happens

Trevor Hoppe (35:22)
Yeah, I had an experience ago,

sort of similar to what you described where this guy messaged me and couldn’t meet up right then. And I said, I said no. his response is like, wasn’t really into you actually. I just thought you would be easy. I was like, great. Well, thank you for clarifying that. What the fuck? Like.

Nolberto (35:41)
Okay.

That’s a very

rude thing to say.

Trevor Hoppe (35:47)
It’s awful. I think, yeah, and that can really…

Nolberto (35:50)
It’s awful. I remember my next boyfriend.

My next boyfriend told me the very same thing. You have people behind you. You have all these kind of people who invite you to dinner or something. But not because you’re handsome, because you’re easy. And I was like, okay.

Trevor Hoppe (35:56)
Ugh, I’m sorry.

just the audacity to say that and it’s a lot. It’s a lot. So you had to kiss some frogs to get to the good stuff. is today, what do you think the best sex looks like for you today?

Nolberto (36:11)
Exactly. Mm-hmm. Yes.

Yes.

the best sex looks like…

like two or more present their consent and their craziness in a playground. To me, good sex is a playground. To me, good sex is about taking pauses, you know, like, let’s pause it for a moment, and restart again. Good sex is about… Let me catch some air.

sex is about…so good, should I go upper? should I go lower? sex is about a good laugh in between good sex is about the chance to not being worried about how you are being you know

Trevor Hoppe (37:02)
Mmm.

It’s real.

Nolberto (37:13)
For me good

sex is It’s like I used to think of good sex like my own version of my own porn movie, you Considering there’s a fiction of course, you know? like the main videos that we I used to think of my sexuality as like my best sex, my version of…

best sex would be a porn clip directed for me, by me, you know? But I have started to make it a little more complex because it’s not about how it looks, it’s about how it feels and it’s about how the environment. So it’s the clip and they’re behind the scenes and the process of being right in it during the time you’re filming it, you know? It’s everything happening at the same time.

Trevor Hoppe (37:43)
That’s a nice way to think about it.

That’s right.

Nolberto (38:07)
I think it’s possible when you have the chance to be yourself and to ask for the things you want in the moment and you are open enough to let the other person be. And that’s great. I remember I had one of the best experiences some months ago with someone that I was…

He was attending one of my courses years ago and then we found each other again on Instagram and he was like, were the teacher in that, and I was like, yes. He was like, I wish I could have the chance to take you to dinner after this and everything. And I was like, well, you have the chance now. So we met, we talked a little on Instagram. We talked about…

Trevor Hoppe (38:48)
Yeah

Nolberto (38:53)
fantasies, we talked about things that we wanted to do, things that we’d like to. We defined like the base, the basics, sorry. And we had one of the best sexual encounters of my entire life. I was like, my God. mean, he was an athlete, but not exactly, not just in physical terms, you know?

because you see when a muscle is trained but in the conversation you can realize too you can tell when communication skills are trained too you can see when when when honesty is trained too you can see when

You can tell a lot of things when you talk to someone. So it was very, very apparent. We were like having fun. It was about having fun. And it was great. I mean, yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (39:49)
That’s awesome. I’m going to record this question so I can edit it back into that. So I can energize.

Nolberto (39:50)
Yeah. huh. Okay. huh. Okay.

Okay.

Trevor Hoppe (39:57)
But you’re sorry, hands will be problematic with, yep.

Nolberto (40:00)
sorry, Thank you.

Let me do these things before.

Trevor Hoppe (40:03)
So can you two…

Nolberto (40:08)
Is it my hair is in this phase when it’s growing but it’s not short but it’s not long exactly and it falls off? Yeah, it’s better. Thank you.

Trevor Hoppe (40:20)
So can you tell me about one of the best experiences that you’ve had? I’m just gonna edit that in too so that you can then tell that story that you just told. For the clips, it’s good to have a back and forth. So like I said, when you just stick to one story, like don’t, I remember a time when I just stick to the one. will be easier, I promise, in the long run.

Nolberto (40:24)
Hmm

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Yes. Thank you. I just let carry the way.

Trevor Hoppe (40:47)
Sorry to interrupt again.

I know, I love that. And it’s usually amazing just for the Instagram stuff, it has to be so tight. know? me figure, know where I was gonna go from there.

Nolberto (40:57)
I know. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (41:01)
So are you a lights on or lights off kind of guy?

Nolberto (41:04)
My lights on… that’s a good question. My lights on… It’s not about physical features, but there has to be something physical that attracts me, of course. Even if it’s… beard, chest, legs, whatever. There has to be something physical, yeah. There doesn’t have to be the whole package of physical features that I will…

like or if I detracted. I need a good laugh. Of course I need a good laugh. I need a good sense of humor. need a curious person. I need someone who encourages you to talk. I need someone, what turns me on is someone that when you say something that…

can be kind of censorship reason, that person asks you, and what else? You know, with very interest. I love interest in passionate people. I love people who, what turns me on is people that you say something about some situation, some fantasy, some…

that you want to do and and they took it and it and if you are this have you ever tried to imagine if you are this or if you put this other element I was like okay so someone who interacts with your desire that always turns out it also turns me on of course when someone has this

this ability to pause things, you know? Okay, let’s bring some water. Are you okay? Are you feeling It doesn’t break my fantasy. Aha, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn’t finish my fantasy, of course. It makes me feel like, okay, we’re taking care of each other, too. That’s something that should be on. What turns me off, it’s way easier.

Trevor Hoppe (42:40)
ability to take a break. Yeah. Yeah.

Nolberto (42:58)
The people who just lay down and wait for you.

Trevor Hoppe (43:00)
Well,

let me ask you that. know, sorry to keep interrupting. Now that I’ve edited so many of these, I just know what’s gonna work best. And if I ask you that question, will be, I can use it more.

Nolberto (43:06)
Tell me about it.

Trevor Hoppe (43:14)
So we got a good idea of kind of what turns you on, what turns you off.

Nolberto (43:18)
Oh, it turns me off. It’s a little easier. The people who just lay down and make you do all the effort. The people who just throw some crumbles of information and you have to figure out all that will happen.

Trevor Hoppe (43:24)
Yeah.

Nolberto (43:36)
It’s not that I need three or four hours encounter. I’m a big fan of quickies. we have to settle. We have to decide it together. know? I turn up entitled people.

Trevor Hoppe (43:44)
Really?

Nolberto (43:51)
I hate when people are just like, okay, but you see this beauty here in front of you, so you want to worship me, right? It’s like, have, yes, it’s like, I have not decided that and you will not decide for me unless it’s my fantasy in that, in which case I am still deciding, you know? That’s kind of what turns me on. People with bad moods in terms of, you know, in…

Trevor Hoppe (43:57)
Yeah, this, yeah.

Right.

Nolberto (44:19)
People who are rude, like people who are, I’m tired of. That’s why, it’s very easy to turn me off. And it’s very easy that if some people has already turned me on, it’s very easy to turn me off. I have learned to, I have learned to not continue with interactions that I don’t want to. And I have.

been and I have learned that I can stop being afraid of finishing an encounter if something doesn’t, if I don’t like something and I’m very, very, very in peace with that.

Trevor Hoppe (44:57)
Yeah, amen to that. How did you learn to say effectively? Because I think that’s what’s so hard for some people is not just, don’t want to have sex with you, but maybe I’m going to leave this situation because I don’t feel good it.

Nolberto (45:10)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well first I have to remind myself that this is not the encounter or this is not the last chance that I will have to have an encounter. I remember I have to remind myself that there is a lot of people that are into me that finds me attractive.

that want to have a good moment with me sexually and that makes me think with more confidence like, alright, this time it’s not happening, next time without a person, it will happen because there will be some other people, there are some other people that will be more compatible with the things that I want and the things that I want to

Trevor Hoppe (45:49)
Peace out.

Nolberto (46:02)
to bring to the and I will be more compatible with some other if it didn’t work, thank you for your time, my best wishes And that’s it. Yes, yes, exactly, yes. Yes, I’m not… Yes, yes.

Trevor Hoppe (46:13)
for now. I understand that, And

what you think, you described kind of the characteristics of what you think the best sex looks like for you. Can you, looking back, is there an encounter where you’re like, you know what, this is pretty much close to the best?

Nolberto (46:25)
Mm-hmm.

Close to the best. Close to the best. This guy that was my student in the course that I teach, like some years ago. There’s been some, I think that since 2015, maybe 10 years ago, I started to develop this workshop.

Trevor Hoppe (46:43)
Mmm.

Nolberto (46:58)
that is called Sessiones Explicitas. That is a sexual health workshop for gay We work at Naked. So from that course, I have developed some small workshops, Sara, short versions with very specific objectives. So there was some guy who took the course with me years ago.

Trevor Hoppe (47:00)
huh.

Nolberto (47:21)
And like some months ago, found me on Instagram and was really wanted to have some interaction with you after that cause. But I found it problematic. I knew that it wasn’t going to be the most ethical thing. well, now that I have found you and some years have been, I wanna talk about it. And I was like, I think this is a great time to talk about it.

And we talked a little about fantasies, we talked a little about situations, we made our schedules to work on together and we had a very, very good time.

We had this basis very, very clear about what we wanted to do. And it wasn’t like we had any script of what to do and what to say, but we had a general idea. And from that, we started to just to have fun and just to let each one carry their weight. was very, very, it was a very, it was about reaffirmation of course, like.

there was always this communication verbally about this is what I wanted to do, like yes, it go, and I finally have the chance of having, know, with all this desire and the tone of the voice, you know? And there’s also a lot of things,

Involving the whole body, you know not focusing in some parts of the body. It was like a whole experience and it was Like let’s make a pause. I need some water so we can keep on continue like this it was it’s very interesting how you can be like kind you’re like craving for someone but at the same time that you feel like you have

Praising for someone you also know that you still have time to make little pulses so you can still enjoy the situation So it was very very hard and intense sometimes, you know, and it was very very calm sometimes and I think it was about balance It was about Talking about what we wanted in the moment and and to continue

to the other one if we wanted upper the level making it low. It was like, it was great. It was like close to the best. I wouldn’t know which one to call my best but that was definitely one of the most recent and the most pleasurable ever.

Trevor Hoppe (49:54)
Great. You mentioned these workshops. Tell me a little bit about what you would do in these workshops, because I’m sure people are curious.

Nolberto (50:00)
Yes, of course. Yeah, we’re glad to do. Well, so Cedric’s Explicit Desks, Explicit Sessions, is a workshop that I developed with some inspirations in some Tantra workshops that I went into sometimes. You know, Tantra is more spiritual, and I make my workshops a little more practical, because I…

I don’t have a spiritual training in anything, but I do have this experience and this knowledge in practical things about sexual hell. I forget the other words, sorry. But it’s something like it’s about your own body and how you think of your own body, not in a spiritual…

terms, in just physical terms, know, very, very practical. And I came up with the idea of first, we need to learn about sexuality more relaxed environments and we have to give ourselves a chance to learn in terms of pleasure, not in terms of guilt.

Trevor Hoppe (51:06)
Yeah.

Nolberto (51:08)
or in terms of what could go wrong. And if we think of terms of what could go wrong, we have to think about what can we bring to the table that has been wrong during our lives. So there is like two big, I always say that this workshop has two strong legs. The first one is this, about experience, of course, and you have the chance to.

We talk about consent in every exercise. We always talk about consent in every exercise because I always have an assistant with me. Like a magician, there’s always one person with which I show the exercise first with that person. Okay, the next exercise is about this, this, and this. And I do all the exercise with the person that I have for demonstration.

Trevor Hoppe (51:46)
Yeah

Nolberto (51:59)
And then I asked to the team, to the people, is there any one of you that doesn’t want to do this exercise? And if someone raised their hands, it doesn’t matter, it’s great. You helped me to work on with the materials, with the message, oil, and all these things. I mean, you can learn maybe by not participating.

But if you participate, I want you to feel safe and I want you to feel comfortable when you participate. that’s the first thing. We talk about sexual health in a very consent, with a very specific perspective of consent. Because the other lack of the workshop is that even if we even if the people that signs up to the workshop, maybe some of them are gay men.

some of them are non-binary people that have sex with gay men. The thing is, there’s a lot of violence in our interactions. We still have the idea, the wrong idea, that harder is better, that deeper is better, that stronger is better. And not all the times, not with all the people.

And there’s some awful experience that people have terms of, couldn’t stop this. some people get hurt physically and some people get hurt emotionally. So other thing that we work on in the workshop. It’s a six hour workshop because it’s always step by step, little by little we go.

from very basic things to some other exercise every time with less clothes, every time with a little more ideas to complex and always after an exercise we always try to discuss the center issue. The exercise works as a…

as a provocation to speak, you know? It’s like, let’s use the exercise as an excuse to talk about some other ideas. it’s not just about getting naked with other guys, which I always tell people, this is not exactly an orgy. If you want to, I can manage drone. I’m very, very good at managing orgy.

Trevor Hoppe (54:03)
Yeah.

Nolberto (54:17)
a very good orgy organizer orgy planner, I will say. But well, what I always tell them is that it’s not like a… It’s more like a series of exercises and discussions that are from very basic things to more complex things about what is defined in us in our sexuality.

Trevor Hoppe (54:17)
No.

Nolberto (54:39)
being rude and violent with other men, being entitled to do things that the other people maybe don’t want to do. Because the most of the time when gaming talk about of their sexual encounters, they will use metaphors with violence. The most of them, wouldn’t know how to translate it in English, but was like

I really destroyed her whole, you know, was like… Destroying is really good thing in all this, the context. Is it really what the other person wanted? But if it… Because if it is, it’s great. But wasn’t what the other people was asking for. So, it’s kind of… It’s the first time I tried to talk about my workshop in English. It’s been quite a challenge. Thank you for that.

Trevor Hoppe (55:29)
I think you are onto something with this tendency to, I guess it’s just toxic masculinity that seeps into our heads and we end up using this kind of macho language around, I fucked him in half, you know, I just destroyed his whole, I,

Nolberto (55:42)
Mm-hmm.

Uh-huh.

Trevor Hoppe (55:47)
Part of that, I guess, is toxic masculinity. What are the good parts of masculinity that we should kind of promote and kind of foster and feel good about, and how do we separate that from the toxic stuff?

Nolberto (56:02)
a great question. You always ask the smallest questions. Because I’m going to be totally honest with you as I have been my whole life. The first idea that appears in my head is nothing but. Yeah, but I think about it for second and I said, okay,

Trevor Hoppe (56:20)
Right? Yeah, I feel that. I do.

Nolberto (56:27)
One of the first features that I think is like, there’s this like sufficiency, I think that’s the word, when you are…

able to speak your mind. You’re able to say what you want to do, what you want to have, what you want to say, basically. Yeah, that confidence that is like, all right, this is what I need. And even if other people’s tries to convince me that maybe you don’t want this, yes, I want this first. I think there also this crafty feature, like we don’t want to hire other people to fix something in our house.

Trevor Hoppe (56:42)
confidence.

Nolberto (57:03)
We have this confidence. Yes, exactly. I can do it myself. And I can prove myself that I’m good at it. Even if it’s my first attempt to do it, I will prove myself that I’m good enough to do this. It will bring me a satisfaction feeling.

Trevor Hoppe (57:03)
We’re supposed to be handyman.

Nolberto (57:21)
the other thing is like, socially we are encouraged to take some risks. And sometimes we see things as risks, but as opportunities.

Trevor Hoppe (57:27)
Hmm.

Mmm.

Nolberto (57:34)
And

I think that’s a very good thing in terms of, I remember a friend of mine in high school that said, if you don’t want it, we cannot do it again. If you didn’t like it at the end, we cannot do it again. So I think these are three features at last that as an adult I think of masculinity. And of course I’m not rejecting the idea of

that list becoming a bigger list during the following years. If you ask me the same question in one year or two years, maybe I will come with a bigger list.

Trevor Hoppe (58:17)
Definitely. I appreciate that because I think sometimes label of toxic masculinity, often we can see that and we can appreciate what’s bad about masculinity, but I think there are also good elements of it we also want to try to hold onto and not throw out with the bathwater. And as gay men, we obviously have a fraught and troubled

Nolberto (58:23)
you

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (58:41)
troubled relationship with masculinity just because of the nature of our society, but reclaiming that, that good stuff I think can be helpful people.

Nolberto (58:43)
Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (58:50)
always like to end with my favorite segment, Sorted Lives or Untold Tales or SLUT for short. What’s the sluttiest thing you ever did?

Nolberto (58:59)
the sluggiest thing I ever did. I was lucky enough to have a sex club like three blocks away from my house and I was starting prep and prep gave me a lot of permission to do a lot of things so I remember it’s one of my golden memories

Trevor Hoppe (59:09)
Nice.

Nolberto (59:23)
of my sexual life is one of the highlights. My first test to mouth. I like, yeah. My first, I haven’t experienced myself much as a bottom until the recent years and after PrEP. And I have gave myself a tons of options and things to do that I wasn’t able to do. I’m not just thinking that PrEP is…

is doing all the homework because in parallel I have made a lot of thinking and a lot of reflection inside myself and I’m always these people who wonders why and how. So I think that has helped a lot but yes there’s a lot of things that are like my sluttiest The first gangbang is a button.

That was quite memorable

My first orgy. I have tons. I have tons, And there’s some other things that they were like very, very slutty and they sound very good in history, but in real terms, they were very, very sometimes I fulfilled my fantasy of having sex in the beach.

Trevor Hoppe (1:00:23)
Hahaha.

Yeah,

Nolberto (1:00:43)
But it’s very, very uncomfortable. I was like, it sounds very sexy, like doing it and it’s like, no, there’s sand all over me, there’s sand inside of me. No, I need to stop it.

Trevor Hoppe (1:00:54)
Some places you do not want exfoliated with sand. It is just not the place.

Nolberto (1:00:58)
Yes, exactly. Yes.

But it’s good to have this experience because now I know that I don’t want to do it again. And no one is coming here to tell me, how does it feel? I have had the experience for myself and that’s my decision to make.

Trevor Hoppe (1:01:09)
Amen to that.

Amen. Well, that’s a really good place to end. appreciate it. Tell me if listeners or watchers, viewers want to learn more about you, where can they find you online?

Nolberto (1:01:14)
Yeah.

Bye.

Well, they can find me online in Instagram. My Instagram name is Noelle Rofian. I think we can write it down. So it’s my name in Instagram and an X, formerly known as Twitter. There’s lots of nudity and explicit material in X. So it’s NSFW, I think the other letters. Yeah. Instagram is little…

Trevor Hoppe (1:01:32)
Yes, I will tag you of course, yep.

And not safe for work, yes, exactly.

Nolberto (1:01:49)
more about education stuff and the things that I do daily and lots of underwear. That’s where you can find me.

Trevor Hoppe (1:01:56)
Perfect. Thank you so much, Alberto. I really appreciate your time and your wisdom.

Nolberto (1:02:01)
Thank you a lot, thank you for your trust in me, thank you for considering me as one of your guests. You’re a person that I admire a lot in every, and I’m very flattered to be here.

Trevor Hoppe (1:02:11)
Well, the feeling is mutual, for sure.

Trevor Hoppe (1:02:15)
That’s our show for today. As always, thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed today’s show, leave us a review on Apple, on Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your content. We would be most grateful for that kind of feedback. It keeps us going. And remember, if you aren’t having your best sex life, I can help. My services as a sex coach are designed to help you identify and overcome.

those obstacles that are standing between you and your best sex life. Find out more on my website, thebestcasex.net. Till next time.