S01E10 – “Taking Time” ft. Manny Ocasio

OVERVIEW:

What do fisting parties, military discipline, and chosen family have in common? According to Master J. Tebias Perry—a leather legend and author of Leather Mentorship—they’re all part of the kinky, complicated path to becoming your authentic, sex-drenched self. In this juicy episode, Dr. Trevor Hoppe dives deep with Master Tebias about the power of mentorship, the joy of voyeurism, and why the best gay sex starts with trust, curiosity, and a whole lot of lube. Get ready to laugh, learn, and maybe clutch your pearls.

TRANSCRIPT:

Trevor Hoppe (00:09)
Hey, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Trevor Hoppe. Today’s episode is about mentorship. You know, for queer people, family is often chosen, not inherited. When it comes to those key life lessons like learning about sex, relationships, or kink, we really can’t rely on dear old mom and dad for those lessons. We kind of have to chart our own course.

And today’s guest, Master J Tebias Perry, knows that all too well. After growing up in a small central Georgia town, he later joined the military and ultimately found the leather community. And he has never looked back. With his new book, Leather Mentorship, Master Tebias is showing a new generation the power and value of mentorship. And spoiler alert.

Mentorship isn’t about control. It’s actually about a deep form of care and even love. And it might just be the thing that saves us. Let’s listen in.

Trevor Hoppe (01:18)
Master J Tebias Perry. Welcome to The Best Gay Sex Podcast

Master J. Tebias Perry (01:22)
Thank you so much for having me. I’ve heard a lot about you and I’m here in the flesh baby. I’m here in the flesh

Trevor Hoppe (01:28)
We are so excited to have you. Daddy Rod, a previous guest gave your highest praise and recommended you come on. So I’m really thrilled to have the chance to talk to you about your new book and all the activism and work you’ve been doing in the leather community. But before we get to today, I just want to help listeners kind of understand you and a little bit about your story. What was it like growing up in Georgia?

Master J. Tebias Perry (01:51)
we didn’t know what anything was other than our little small bubble. I was raised in a very small town called Reynolds, Georgia, maybe 1500 people or less. White people lived on one side of the tracks. Black people lived on the other side of the tracks. And I am from a middle class family that were entrepreneurs. So it was really, it felt kind of isolated like.

We knew that Atlanta was an hour away, but we never had any interest on going because everything we needed was right But I didn’t know that this big world existed until I got out of Reynolds, Georgia. yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (02:27)
Yeah,

what caused you to leave Reynolds?

Master J. Tebias Perry (02:30)
As I became older and more interested in different things, I saw the world differently from my television and I wanted to do a lot of things. I mean, multiple things. I wanted to dance, but I didn’t find that because I have such a strong religious background and my mom never really technically wanted me to dance. She wanted me to go to college. She wanted me to do the military and that was what I did, but I did feel kind of

I still feel that shit. It’s like I’m feeling it welling up in me now. Like I should have been dancing for Alvin Ailey in which I wanted, but yeah, I made it. I think I did pretty well.

Trevor Hoppe (03:11)
So when you say dance, you mean like professionally dance. I was picturing like boogieing at the club or something, but you mean like literally you wanted to dance.

Master J. Tebias Perry (03:19)
I wanted to dance. It started out with, and then started with Gregory Haines. And I just followed all these dancers like tap dance and jazz and all of this. And then I got, I started looking at a lot of pictures and videos of like ballet. And I was like, I really think I want to do that. Cause I was tall, was slender.

And I never really had the gay thing in my mind until I started finding interest in that, and that I found more interest looking at myself as I think I may be attracted to men. So I think, you know, in the latter parts of my teens, was attracted guys before I graduated high school.

Trevor Hoppe (04:02)
You started to realize that you were attracted to guys at the end of high school. Did you have any early kind of forays into, into messing around with guys?

Master J. Tebias Perry (04:12)
Well, just, you know, just locker room stuff like you just compare and you look down, look down and that was pretty much it. But nothing moving like to the point where we’re touching and feeling and all this.

Trevor Hoppe (04:25)
What were your first adventures into sexuality like?

Master J. Tebias Perry (04:29)
We’re talking about two different things now. You’re talking about with women or with guys.

Trevor Hoppe (04:34)
I mean generally, yeah, so if women was the starting point, what was that like?

Master J. Tebias Perry (04:38)
it really stemmed from from church. So my only interest in sex was the neighbor, the older neighbor who used to babysit us, babysit us, who showed me what it looked like inside. And I really found interest in that, really found interest in it. And that was the thing to do being from a small town. was you guys go with girls, girls go with guys.

And that was the way it was supposed to go. So I did find interest in that, moved on to college, dated Miss Fort Valley State. And then after that, was hell over heels from there when I got into the military. So.

Trevor Hoppe (05:19)
the military was your gateway drug, huh?

Master J. Tebias Perry (05:21)
That was my gateway drug for really, really opening who I was because essentially I’m 21, 22 years old. I’m on my own, I’m making my own money, I’m in my own place. And yeah, I started to explore a little bit more, yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (05:35)
did you know what to do? Like what were you, what, what inspired you sexually? Did you learn from pornography or like magazines or what were the kind of touchstones in your life at that point?

Master J. Tebias Perry (05:45)
VHS tapes. I started out with the VHS tapes and then I wanted to go a little bit more risque so I found interest in bookstore culture which a lot of us do. I mean we all start out with the seedy-ness of sexuality like what the fuck can I get away with? What is the most deviant thing that I could possibly do? So it started out more like the VHS

Trevor Hoppe (05:47)
Hi.

haha

Master J. Tebias Perry (06:12)
the masturbation, mutual masturbations. And then I started with a deeper level of exploring more with older guys, because I’ve always had an affinity for older, more masculine guys. And, you know, back in the day, used to be whoever has the biggest dick is going to top or whatever. So I ended up on this end of the spectrum. So older guys really taught me a lot more about myself.

than people that were my age. So they taught me about leather, they taught me about fetish and other stuff. And it was just so different back then. We didn’t have easy accessibility to the internet. This was Craigslist and the chat lines and other this stuff. The chat line, can you believe it? So yeah, the bookstores, I found interest in those and it was fun. It was fun while it lasted.

Trevor Hoppe (06:58)
Loved Craigslist. Yeah.

Yeah. When did you first start to think that leather excited you?

Master J. Tebias Perry (07:13)
was really a combination, Trev, between the discipline that I had in the military versus the seediest and most gutter shit that I’ve ever wanted to do. It was really a mixture in between that. And once I decided and got a divorce, because I was in the military and married, is that I got to get a divorce in order to do what the fuck I want to do. Because I don’t want to bring someone into this experience with me not being truthful.

with who I am. So true fucking story. I was in the gym. I had just gotten back from Desert Storm. My best friend, Alan, was saying, my God, you’re so huge. Look at your muscles. You know, all of us have this summer of puberty where we just grow up and we become men like overnight. So I came back from Desert Storm, was working out, shaved my head and was at the gym. This older white guy

And I said, can I get a spot? Can I get a spot? The traditional spot in the gym, he’s standing over me, I’m on the bench and I can see everything looking up. Looking up. So that was really my first real encounter with someone who just so happened to have been a kinkster And he showed me everything. It started from just very light cruising.

Trevor Hoppe (08:19)
Hmm?

Huh.

Master J. Tebias Perry (08:36)
weeks and months, if not two years of this cruising and flirting in the gym, know, mutual masturbation. And long story short, I got a divorce and he and I started dating. And he taught me everything I knew at my first duty station. it was, I don’t know if it was love, but it was more me exploring. And he taught me all that I needed to know about leather. And that was, God, that was 96.

97. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (09:05)
Some people hear the term leather and they picture the material. obviously it means a lot more to you than just cowhide. What does leather represent to you?

Master J. Tebias Perry (09:17)
Well, when I first came into it, it was all about the sex. was about only just the conquer. between whipping, flogging,

all the above, but it was more or less about the sex first. And then as I became matured, as my mentor says, as I became matured in leather and in my kinks, found a deeper appreciation for what came before us, like the Marsha P. Johnsons and the leather community, were radical activists who really had a cause and a purpose.

behind the reason of our visibility, not only as gay folks, but leather folks as well. And all of them were on this movement. And I just found more.

interests and I think age had something to do with that. I was getting older. I was in the world in my military career and learning more about the community as a whole. So learning more responsibility gave me more responsibility into what I wanted to be, who I was representing.

and what I was representing and where I wanted to go with that. So My mentors that I took on along the way kind of guided me where I wanted to go. Did I want it to be a hardcore kinkster or did I want to be an activist, someone who was an educator, a creator of content and developing people who were coming behind me. So I became more into an activist on where I am now, an educator.

Trevor Hoppe (10:48)
I know your work right now especially deals a lot in the topic of mentorship when it comes to leather.

Master J. Tebias Perry (10:48)
you

Trevor Hoppe (10:54)
What lessons did you learn from your first mentors in the leather community?

Master J. Tebias Perry (10:59)
I will say this, and this is true fucking story. Now after the first guy that I saw his balls in the gym and we dated, there were some serious pitfalls that I fell into as far as sexual deviancy, not me, but people in the community that would prey on younger guys, prey on Black guys.

You know, I was a flip-flopper for a little bit between top and bottom, between verse. And then for some reason, I just had a bad taste in my mouth about sex until I got a grip on who I was and what I liked singularly, not with everybody else and finding a desire and pleasing people based on their sexual needs, but my own. And then I truly found myself in that.

But with mentorship, the pitfalls that I fell into, I didn’t want others that were…

my grasp to experience what I experienced if I know that I can give them something for them to avoid that. So I wanted to pass on what I had learned and then I wanted it to be more structured. So I started journaling. started journaling and every time I would public speak, you know, one of my mentors said, oh my God, you know, this kid got a fucking book in him. He has a book in him and I can still hear them saying that.

And then it went on to me competing for different leather titles and leather contests. And I became more visible, more well known, which is an honor. You know, it’s an honor. And that’s how mentorship really shaped and helped me find out what my strengths were and how to use my weaknesses for my strengths. So yeah, that’s how it came about.

Trevor Hoppe (12:49)
You mentioned a Black gay man in those spaces and you’ve written a lot about that. What was that like bringing your whole self to that community?

Master J. Tebias Perry (13:00)
know, that’s something that I had to learn also through trial and error as well. Because I’ve heard white leather men say to other white men, white leather men and women that Black people do not look good in leather. Black men in dreads do not look good in leather. So in order to flex what I know,

Trevor Hoppe (13:18)
Mm.

Master J. Tebias Perry (13:27)
turn that anger into more. So I formed a class called People of Color Navigating White Dominated Spaces. This is one of the first classes that I taught. And it really showed me that we’re more alike than we are apart.

Trevor Hoppe (13:38)
Wow.

Trevor Hoppe (13:45)
What was your first IML like?

Master J. Tebias Perry (13:47)
That’s a good question. Actually, my first IML, I did with two of my best friends, Leon and Sean, and we knew nothing about the magnitude of IML.

queen friend made I wanted something like a kilt and there are pictures of me on my Facebook and this thing was with it was with what’s the drag queen used the glue like the

the glue gun, glued me

a kilt together and you know when you put it on my god my chest and my arms were looking good and as we were going to the onyx party back then the kilt was literally falling apart piece by piece. mean like it was in like slats the little slats like this long and it was like each slap was falling apart but I learned so much about how

you know, we think that because we’re younger, we’re invincible. Everyone wants us. And I was just the laughing stock of all of it. I really was looking back now because this thing was falling apart. And it was was hilarious. But the first, my first IML like,

Trevor Hoppe (14:49)
Aww.

Master J. Tebias Perry (15:01)
2005, 2006, it was a mess. A lot of good sex, but horrible experience with my wardrobe. Horrible. Big time. Big time. Big time.

Trevor Hoppe (15:11)
Aw, Mordra malfunction. I love that.

What do you think, why do people travel from far and wide to come to leather events? this is, IML is one of them, but there are many, leather events around the world even. What do people make the pilgrimage for?

Master J. Tebias Perry (15:31)
People come for various reasons, Trev. They come for sex. They come for the brotherhood. They come for the camaraderie. They come for friendships. They come for the debauchery of it all. So, I mean, for me, it’s become more purposeful because now that someone who I mentor is currently

IML Someone who I mentor now is IML. And that is for me looking outside into myself,

Trevor Hoppe (15:57)
That’s cool.

Master J. Tebias Perry (16:03)
some things and qualities and fixings that you poured into one person. And to see that work come out into full fruition is a powerful fucking thing. And I mean, it’s really difficult to explain. Because I mean, I’m such a humble person. And to look at that,

look at that from the outside in. It’s like, that is a huge fucking thing to do. And to be a part of, is to be a part of something that you see from one point and now it’s here. And they’re representing leather on a global scale. So it’s major for me. It’s a big, accomplishment.

Trevor Hoppe (16:46)
What was that feeling like when they became IML?

Master J. Tebias Perry (16:50)
I was on the front row right behind the judges and pretty much the staff. I know the staff because all of us are brothers and friends and all this shit. And when Jamal won, it was just, and I jumped up like I was at my grandma’s church and it was.

It was a spiritual moment for me. And for them, he’s like shocked and couldn’t move. you know, all of my friends around me are trying to run and grab me like, my God, we did it. And it takes a team to make sure that they’re polished, they’re boosted they understand this, the bigger picture. And when they get it, Trev, they just get it. It’s like…

It’s like the little ducklings in the lake. know, the mother teaches them how to swim and you push them out there and it’s just so liberating and it’s major.

Trevor Hoppe (17:43)
wonder if there are similar kinds of structures in the leather world as like maybe in like the ball scene where there are kind of like familial relationships like a drag mom I assume there’s probably similar kind of relationships in the leather world of parenting and nurturing. You mentioned mentorship, but it sounds like it’s even beyond mentorship.

Master J. Tebias Perry (18:01)
It is similar because I’m a huge fan of Pose All of us have watched Pose and seen the houses, but I also know some of the house members here in Atlanta. And it is sort of similar. You you take, take in kids under your wings and you bring them into a space where they’re safe and you teach them everything that you know and what was pointed to you. So I think that there is a lot of similarity with leather.

with leather mentoring as well as the ballroom So I think a lot of ways that it is a lot of similarities

Trevor Hoppe (18:38)
It’s great, because often we have to rely on our chosen family as queer people because our biological family is not always there for us. find that familial bonding in that space? Do you have a close relationship with your biological family? How do you think that factors into your notion of family?

Master J. Tebias Perry (19:00)
And I’ve mentioned this publicly too, and I’m not ashamed to say it, that I, unfortunately, after my mom’s death and even before that, I’ve never really had a relationship with one of my siblings. And even after my mom passed, honestly, I haven’t really talked to them since that point. And that’s been since 2016. And I have friends that I’ve known for 35 years that I talk to every single day.

So, you know, my chosen family and family is what you make it. And it goes back to, you know, blood is thicker than water. And I just really don’t fuck with that because it’s so foreign to me now as an adult and as someone who’s almost 60 years old that I know friends better than I know my family. So I have a close relationship with my family, but with my sibling, I don’t, unfortunately.

now that I’ve found myself and who I am.

Trevor Hoppe (19:56)
A lot of young people are very excited to get into kink and leather but they struggle to find the entry point that’s safe and, and welcoming What tips would you have for young people to kind of venture out?

Master J. Tebias Perry (20:11)
that validation. The second thing is get behind someone that you can trust And number three, always look for a safe…

experiences. That is what’s most important because that groundwork will keep you at a level where you are socially aware of who you’re around at all times. So make sure you’re not looking for any validation. Get behind someone who know what the fuck they’re talking about and that you trust and that you trust and always, always get consent. Always get consent to touch, to feel, to explore.

and make sure that it’s fun and it doesn’t hurt. Well, it hurts at first, but make sure it doesn’t hurt permanently. So those three things, I don’t want to give so much legwork on what people need to do because that’s not really my ministry. I really am all about all of us exploring and finding what makes us tick and what makes us the best version of ourselves.

Trevor Hoppe (21:12)
I’m curious, know that changes over our life course, Some of it is about exploring and some of it changes over time. How do you feel like your desires have changed over time?

Master J. Tebias Perry (21:23)
desires for sex specifically? yeah, I want it. I want it. I want it as often.

Trevor Hoppe (21:26)
Yeah. Yeah.

Master J. Tebias Perry (21:30)
I’m always open, but I think I’m still exploring a lot, if not more so that I’ve always done.

I’m a creature of habit where I like what I like and I don’t apologize for it and it’s if it’s a flip-flop moment it’s a flip-flop moment which happens on Christmas those are the three times when I’m three times that you know what I’m talking about those are the three times of the year when I want to be treated like that but every other time

Trevor Hoppe (21:53)
Uh-huh.

Master J. Tebias Perry (21:59)
I want to do the most sickest, safest, wildest And I have a huge closet and a lot of shit in my arsenal. So that’s what I’ll say about that.

Trevor Hoppe (22:10)
I am not in the leather community, but I am attracted to the sexuality of it all, of course. And part of the reason I find, I guess, just speaking from my own self, I’m a little intimidated sometimes by like the long list of things that guys are into or not into,

Do you think it’s best to find someone when you’re starting out that aligns perfectly with what you’re into or that there are big gaps?

Master J. Tebias Perry (22:34)
I would not focus on just one person in your exploration. You have to try out many different cars to know which one you want to drive. I like SUVs, but I like sports cars as well. I like pickup trucks, but I like motorcycles as well.

I mean, you have to make sure that you specifically explore and learn what you enjoy because no one is going to give you everything you need. And if you’re in this box

all of us need to get out and explore and find what is specifically and what is useful.

Trevor Hoppe (23:13)
A lot of guys are centered on the apps, Grindr, Scruff, et cetera. Do you think you can find sexual connection there?

Master J. Tebias Perry (23:21)
God, I think that is exactly, I’m not gonna say it is the only point, but I think it is a good point as long as you’re being safe about that because with so much over sexual stimulation come risk of all types. So I think it’s a good way to start as long as you make sure you know what you’re getting into and explore. I’ve always said that and I’ve said it publicly.

as well, you know, don’t hinder yourself because just when you stop trying to learn more, you’re 60 years old and you wake up and certain things are not working like they used to. And you’ve got this gray hair on the top and the bottom and it’s harder to go out on the hunt. So I would say explore, explore, explore. There’s this thing. I used to be a member of Onyx.

which is the largest leather organization in the world. And their motto, is educate, empower, and explore. If everyone could learn that and practice that, the leather community would be a perfect template for everyone to start in, even heteros. mean, to do that is everything. So just…

I would tell everyone that’s listening to you, that’s following me, is to make sure you explore to know specifically, if not multiple things that you like and enjoy in the bedroom

Trevor Hoppe (24:50)
I just want to, I want to kind of hone in on that because I think that’s the sticking point for a lot of people is that they don’t always know what is going to turn them on in the moment. And some things can be quite, things, some things you don’t want to do with a stranger like restraint, for example, it’s kind of a challenging idea to do that on a first time meetup. How do you.

How do you know what turns you on?

Master J. Tebias Perry (25:14)
Well, for me, for me, the stimulation is the true barometer for me. and I’m a voyeur, I’m really a voyeur something turns me on when I don’t want to take my eyes off of it, or I want to get into it. So I know that it could be eyes, it could be

lips. It could be a big ass. It could be big legs or it could be a big dick. So I know what turns me on because I’ve gone through the trial and the error of what works specifically for me. Not judging anyone else, but I know when I see it or when I hear it. So it just comes with experience, right? I mean, it’s just, yeah. And I’m not saying go and explore

with a random person that you haven’t taken the time to get to know or that you don’t trust, but all of us have done pickup play. All of us have met people on apps and had a absolutely wonderful time. So you’re not really gonna know things unless you really get out there and do some practicing.

Trevor Hoppe (26:18)
Practice, practice, practice. That’s what I always say. Absolutely. Hopefully, yes, we’re striving for perfection. Absolutely. Never getting there, but trying.

Master J. Tebias Perry (26:21)
It makes it perfect, yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (26:30)
mentioned voyeurism that has kind of a stigma attached to it. It’s this, uh, thing that a lot of us enjoy. think we want many, many, many men watch porn. So in some level we’re, being voyeuristic in that way, but a recent guest kind of transformed my understanding of it by explaining kind of what it did for them. So I’m, I’m interested to hear again.

A little bit more from you on this out of voyeurism?

Master J. Tebias Perry (26:53)
get an experience that I can replay in my mind for weeks, for months, for years. And God forbid if I write it in my journal, I get to really play it over and over and over. So I can sit back and watch hardcore fucking or fisting. it gives me the opportunity

to watch something, but then I’m physically not part of the experience. don’t know where it came from, but it turns me on so much where I can watch a fisting scene or a double fisting scene

And I think what it is is it’s the heroism in that I never thought was possible. Seeing two, seeing two arms in a.

person just in sheer can still hear the sounds like in my head now and I can just get off on it like instantly. know this is a bit much but I’m gonna tell you anyway, my favorite moments are first thing in the close my eyes,

Trevor Hoppe (27:49)
Please.

Master J. Tebias Perry (27:55)
and go into an experience at CLAW or IML or MAL watching the scene with two guys fisting one guy at the same time. And I could literally almost tell.

it and satisfying myself. So voyeurism is something that it keeps me safe in a lot of ways because I do love pickup play, don’t get me wrong, but voyeurism for me, it works for me. The climax that I need and the experience So voyeurism, it’s everything. It’s everything. I love it.

Trevor Hoppe (28:33)
Yeah, you know, honestly, it’s one of those kind of, I guess you could say a fetish that I hadn’t thought a whole lot about until a conversation with a previous guest where he really transformed my understanding and thinking about, for one, as you say, it can be safe where you can watch a scene play out that you’re maybe not ready to experience it or even you don’t want to be a part of physically, but you find erotic. So it can be a form of sex education. And I found that like,

kind of transformative in my understanding. was like, yeah. And of course the erotic charge of it all is more obvious, I think, the kind of, is such a banal word about it, but the kind of, I don’t know, learning aspect to it and appreciation and.

Master J. Tebias Perry (29:10)
Thank

Add to that Trev, I’ve been, of course, my voyeurism looks different sometimes more so than everyone’s. When I’m in a voyeuristic state, I all of my clothes off and be tucked away in a corner somewhere, the people I’m looking at possibly can’t see me and I’m just going to town on myself.

This is a one man fucking show that I just thoroughly enjoy and I can replay it. I can have whatever in my hands or, you know, bound myself, put a gag in my mouth and go to town on myself. And then I can replay it again and again. So, I mean, it’s just, it’s this whole thing. But I’ve also, to add to that, I’ve been invited into scenes

from But sometimes I’ll bow out, no, I just want to sit and watch, you just enjoy yourself. So it goes both It’s sort of pick up basketball. It’s like, you know, coach put me in, coach put me in, but you know, sometimes I don’t want to be sidelines. But it’s major. is, it’s one of my

Trevor Hoppe (30:23)
Yeah, you’re happy on the bench.

Master J. Tebias Perry (30:29)
more perfected crafts.

Trevor Hoppe (30:30)
I guess I wanted to also talk potentially about power play because I, or power exchange, I guess would be the more like appropriate term in the leather community. What, what’s your relationship to power exchange?

Master J. Tebias Perry (30:43)
Power exchange for me is I’m taking someone’s power, they’re loaning it to me, and I choose to give it back or not. That’s the negotiated part where if I have someone that’s in service or collared or I own them as property or a slave, they’re giving me their power and their trust. So that’s synonymous to me. Power is trust. And they loan it to me.

And I choose to give it back to you where I have taught you some things and I give you back a bigger power. So sometimes I give up my power, my birthday or Christmas. That’s my only level of power that I want to give to others. So that’s what power exchange is to me. And I mean, it’s not something that I, that I practice often because I do love pickup play. I do love anticipatory service.

Trevor Hoppe (31:26)
Yeah.

Master J. Tebias Perry (31:41)
I like weekend service, but I’ve had boys, girls before, but that’s just not something constant where I want to be in dynamic MS or DS relationship constantly.

Trevor Hoppe (31:55)
I guess I’m just for people who are in my own edification, like does the master in your name, that, so that does not necessarily reflect a commitment to a certain kind of play or is it? I’m just curious.

Master J. Tebias Perry (32:08)
well, people get mastery in different ways. People get mastery honorifics from the service that they’ve done, the people that are in their, from their down line to their up line that recognizes their hard work. And they bestow covers onto them, which are the Muir caps. And I’ve earned three of those from different people in the community. And note that

We, as people in the community who are influencers, I would never call myself a leader in the community in Atlanta. The community gets to bestow these honorifics onto us. And anyone who says, I’m a leader in the Charlotte leather community, they’re not really a leader. They’re self-appointed because this work that we do, it is really specific work.

And it’s not something of grandeur and self-seeking It’s work that the community has recognized. And we get these honorifics as sir, as daddy, as master from various people in the community. So that’s how it’s come about. But one of my mentors bestowed my Master Cap onto me

So I’ve been fairly a new master. So mastery can come in many different ways, from education to having people in service that recognizes your work.

Trevor Hoppe (33:34)
That’s fascinating. I did not know that system of honorifics.

Is it hierarchical? Like is there a level above Master? Like I’m just really kind of think people might be curious to know.

Master J. Tebias Perry (33:45)
well to me, leadership is not about you being in charge of anyone, but it’s you being in charge of the love and care that you give for the people that you serve. I look at that.

Even people call me a leader all the time and I say, no, no, no, no, no, no. I give servant leadership. I give servant leadership. I’m a servant of my community and I have to pull it back. that’s, it’s a grounding thing because when you are,

in our leather journey, people call you Master Tebias And, you know, once upon a time they called me Sir Tebias This is a honor that’s bestowed to us and it’s not something that should be taken lightly. And it’s not a lifestyle, it’s a life. It really is a life that we give to the people that we serve. And that’s, that’s just the way I look at it. I look at the community as people that I serve and I teach and I educate and

being called master is something that is, it’s a huge honor. And I take a real life responsibility in honoring the people that I serve.

Trevor Hoppe (34:56)
I love that. That’s, I mean, it’s beautiful. I, I literally, I did not know that system. So I really appreciate your explanation of it. I’m sure people listening will find it helpful as well.

Master J. Tebias Perry (35:05)
hierarchy

really. There’s, I mean, yeah, a sir, a daddy, a master, we’re all servants, you know, in one way or another. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (35:07)
That makes more sense to me now the way you explained it there. Yeah.

Yeah,

I love that. It’s really beautiful. I want to talk about your book and mentorship and what, what, what

What did you want the book to do and how have you seen that play out on the ground?

Master J. Tebias Perry (35:30)
It’s been so many different things. The book started out with one way. wanted to, like I said earlier, I wanted mentorship to be something that was a succession plan to make sure people did not fall into the pitfalls that I fell into. So I wanted to put something together that was very subject matter specific that you didn’t have to read the whole

500 page book just to get the gist of what I was saying. So I started out with writing certain chapters of subject matters that I know I have proficiency in. And I wrote the chapters down and I just started talking about it. I just started talking about each subject that I knew about and that I had experience in. And I wrote on them until I felt that they were full enough with the information, I had the tools.

for someone else to use. what really taught me and what really made this book

special is understanding the difference between A disagreement and disrespect because that is a huge fucking difference. as I moved into leadership roles, I’ve understood that more clear. We can disagree all day long, but when that disagreement turns into disrespect, I’m going to step away.

Trevor Hoppe (36:38)
Hmm.

Master J. Tebias Perry (36:57)
before I do something that I’ll regret and you surely will regret. you know, I’ve just, it’s a mastery in learning the art of listening to understand, not listening to respond. And I found so much in writing this And I couldn’t have done it without having those tools from Master Bruce, from Master Lily.

and other mentors that I look up to in the community. So all of them are wrapped up into all of these pages that are presented publicly now in other mentorships.

Trevor Hoppe (37:36)
the experience been with people receiving the book?

Master J. Tebias Perry (37:39)
my friends were like, we’re going to go on tour. We’re going to do a five city tour.

right after M.A.L. in D.C. We did D.C., we did Baltimore, we did Philly, we did New York. after M.A.L. we sold all the books, all the t-shirts. It is a labor of love. receiving the book everywhere I go, everywhere I go, Trevor.

someone is asking me something about chapter four, about chapter 16, about the Butterfly Effect, about the forward that Vince Andrews wrote. And Vince Andrews is a good friend of mine. He has several bodies of work out there. And I think it’s been received very well. I’m really shocked and I’m proud of it all at the same time. So I’m just, it’s emotional. mean, it’s emotional because

leather mentorship being my baby, even me wearing a leather dress, gloves. It’s a powerful thing because, you know, the masculinity of the book says a lot with a man, a leather man wearing a leather dress. So it’s just all around powerful.

Trevor Hoppe (38:51)
I noticed that on your Instagram I was kind of perusing through and you definitely play with gender a little bit. think some challenged by the rigidity of kind of old guard masculinity in the leather scene. that seems to be changing. What do you see as the relationship between masculinity and the leather community?

How do you make sense of that?

Master J. Tebias Perry (39:14)
as long as you show up as yourself in a dress, heels, or in the most Tom of Tom of Finland that you could wear, as long as you show up authentically as yourself, that’s really all that matters. So as I’ve gotten older

My ideas of masculinity has changed where now I can be in a 47 pound leather skirt and feel just as masculine as wearing a tight pair of ball-crushing leather pants. So I look at masculinity as something that is inner more so than outward now. So I look at my comfort level of how I show up.

as long as it’s authentically myself, that’s all that really matters. So I look more of the inward expression of myself than outward expression.

that’s all that matters.

Trevor Hoppe (40:07)
As a black man, how does that shape your relationship to masculinity, particularly thinking in the leather community?

Master J. Tebias Perry (40:13)
religion, Trevor, has fucked us up. Religion has given us this scale of what masculinity looks like and what it shouldn’t look like. Notice I didn’t say what it doesn’t look like, but what it should look like. And religion has given us this standard. Put kink on top of that and layer

the masculinity and femininity and all of So I would say do some soul searching and find yourself no matter what it looks like and just be free and have fun

men wore dresses in the Bible before. So it changes up and down. You know, this new guard thing that people are doing now, as old as I am, I’ve embraced it. And in order for us to still capture the ear of the younger guard as someone who’s rooted in old guard, we have to

embrace that. Or, unfortunately, we will be left behind. I mean, the world looks different than 1997, 2000s. So we have to embrace what’s to come.

Trevor Hoppe (41:17)
Mm-hmm.

Master J. Tebias Perry (41:23)
Like we had to embrace what’s to come. They have to embrace us and we have to embrace them as well. So it’s a give and take.

Trevor Hoppe (41:30)
Hmm.

Yeah. Change can be hard. Obviously I can only imagine, the conversations happening within IML about all that must be spirited. I’m sure. But I wanted to make sure I got to the topic of the podcast.

best gay sex and understand a little bit about what you think for you. What does it take to have the best gay sex?

Master J. Tebias Perry (41:51)
The best gay sex. I would say make sure that you have the right kind of lube and make sure that you are working within your limits. That’s the best advice I could give because I mean some people are conquerors when they know that the mountain that they want to climb, that that mountain is too big for them. So lots of lube.

and know what your limits are. Know what your limits are.

Trevor Hoppe (42:19)
I like it. Amen to that. Absolutely.

when you look back at, mean, obviously many experiences. What do you think the qualities for you are of those encounters that were like, you’re like, man, that was the best.

Master J. Tebias Perry (42:35)
Going back to a little bit of power exchange. Whenever I’m in those three times a year, those three times of the year, I do like to flip-flop. And the most enjoyable part of that is for me to let go.

but because of public scrutiny and us putting ourselves on the chopping block in a way to be socially responsible, I have to be cognizant of shit that I say. I still do. I do. So I bear that responsibility. But the best way for me to reach that level of vulnerability with that person.

3000 years and I feel so free whenever I’m experiencing that and it has to unfortunately or fortunately come from the most masculine experience from the dom side of them to me that I can get and it looks

It’s like I’m just being slutted out. It looks almost like I’m being slutted out because I’m in service as a dom so much in play and in different scenes. Those three times means a lot to me. And when I want it, I fucking want it and I want all of it. I’m just saying. Sex looks like for me is I want to be dominated.

Trevor Hoppe (43:37)
Haha.

Amen to that.

Master J. Tebias Perry (44:01)
I’m

Trevor Hoppe (44:02)
Who can relate?

With kind of role play scenarios, when you talked about being slutted out, right? Does it ever start to feel scripted? And if so, how do you like shake that?

Master J. Tebias Perry (44:17)
I’ve never looked at leather and pickup plate as role play. Though with some people I’ve heard it, I’ve seen it, that this is a role for them. This is authentically who I am. Like me going into a scene.

what is part of sex and the words in the exchange of dialogue that we have. This is authentically that I found who this person really is and this is exactly who I am. When I’m just consensually or when I have my arm up to my elbow in your ass, this is authentically who I am. So I don’t find

my description as role-play. I really, really don’t. So the dom, dom sub, daddy boy, master slave.

dynamic, this is exactly who the fuck I am. It’s nothing about the role play of it. Even my aftercare, even my aftercare that I give after a scene, they’re like, you know, I’m fine, I’m fine. This is, and I’m bringing them down off of a ledge. This is the caring person that I am or the sexual deviant that I am, the sadistic fucker that I am.

This is authentically who I am behind these nerdy glasses. So I just, I don’t see any forms of that in what I do. No.

Trevor Hoppe (45:47)
Yeah. No, that’s really helpful. I appreciate that so much because people outside the community, I think that will help them understand what it’s like to be part of the community that it’s for some people may be role play, but as you say, it’s not necessarily that it can be something else too. So I really appreciate that clarification. I always like to end with my favorite.

segment, is called Sordid Lives and Untold Tales or SLUT for short. What’s the sluttiest thing you ever did?

Master J. Tebias Perry (46:17)
ever done was actually in Berlin at laboratory. Have you been?

Trevor Hoppe (46:22)
well that makes sense.

I have not myself, but many of my friends have.

Master J. Tebias Perry (46:26)
my God, it is a, it is literally a sea, a sea of slings and debauchery of men. And

as many people as I could. And this just happened.

Bye.

Trevor Hoppe (46:42)
Nice.

Master J. Tebias Perry (46:43)
I just went around randomly putting my dick in every single hole.

I think what was most liberating from it because you when you show up in these spaces you don’t know who’s going to be attracted to you if it’s mutual or if it’s not but obviously I was the pick of the litter for that night but I it was just so liberating just to anyway that was the sluttiest thing that I’ve ever done was just put my guards down and fuck as many people as I could yeah

at the Love Talk.

Trevor Hoppe (47:19)
Yeah, it’s like the opposite

of the, it’s the opposite of the no loads refuse bottom. You’re like the no hole refuse top. love it. Yes, I’ve heard, I’ve heard of the horse. Well, yeah. If people, I would be fascinated to go for real. It would be, it just like sociologically I’d be very fascinated.

Master J. Tebias Perry (47:26)
Horse market. Horse market. It’s like horse market.

take you to one.

Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (47:41)
If people want to learn more about you and your book, where can they find you online?

Master J. Tebias Perry (47:45)
on my Instagram you can also find me on Facebook under J Tebias Perry. Don’t send me a friend request unless you inbox me first because I will delete them. So no random friend requests. And you can also find me

Trevor Hoppe (48:00)
Of course, yeah, Instagram is

good for that.

Master J. Tebias Perry (48:03)
Yeah, you can also find me under Bulge Features, International House of Bulge on Instagram.

Trevor Hoppe (48:11)
Fabulous. Well, I hope I see you at IML.

Master J. Tebias Perry (48:14)
It’s going.

Trevor Hoppe (48:15)
I

Master J. Tebias Perry (48:16)
I gotta show you the ropes. I gotta show you the ropes Thank you so much for the body of work that you do for the community. And thank you so much for having me today. Thank you.

Trevor Hoppe (48:18)
I can’t

Fabulous, I look forward to it.

likewise. Thank you. I got to know your work and I’m obsessed. So I’m excited to see and follow your career.

Trevor Hoppe (48:36)
That’s our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. Always grateful. And remember, if you’re thinking, wouldn’t it be great to talk to me about your sex life, kind of hash out some issues that you’ve been facing, my services as a sex coach are designed to help you identify and overcome those obstacles that are standing between you and your best sex life. Find out more on my website, thebestgaysex.net.

Till next time.

OVERVIEW:

What does it mean to be a man? For many of us gay boys, masculinity wasn’t a choice—it was something we were punished for lacking. From childhood bullying to family silence, we grew up navigating a world that demanded we toughen up. But what if masculinity isn’t all bad? What if we can reclaim the good parts without the toxic baggage. This week, I’m joined by sexual health advocate and content creator Nolberto Gonzalez, who’s spent his career helping gay men cultivate pleasure, confidence, and consent. We reflect on our queer boyhoods, the pressures of masculinity, and how we can redefine it for ourselves. Plus, Nolberto spills on his first gangbang as a bottom—because, of course, we do.

TRANSCRIPT:

Trevor Hoppe (00:09)
Hey, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Trevor Hoppe. Today’s episode is about masculinity, a topic close to my heart, not in the way you might think. Like many effeminate gay men, I grew up a little, how do you say, limp-wristed, a little light in the loafers. I had this big goofy gran as a child and a penchant for playing with my neighbor’s Barbies, admittedly.

rather than my own Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, although I did like the turtles, not gonna lie. But when puberty hit my classmates, my happy life descended into a nightmare of bullying and beatings. My classmates called me the F-sler long before I even knew what that word meant or that I had something called a sexuality. I sometimes say that I came out at age 14, but that’s…

a little bit of a lie, like lots of effeminate boys, I didn’t really have the luxury of staying closeted or coming out. It was written on my face. Today’s guests may have grown up thousands of miles away in Puebla, Mexico, in a totally different cultural context. But we share a common experience of growing up as a little queer boy. Noberto Gonzalez.

is a sexual health advocate, activist, turned content creator who has made promoting healthy sexuality his mission in life. For over a decade, he has led erotic hands-on workshops tailored and designed to gay men called Sessiones Explicitas.

And in today’s episode, we pause to reflect not just on those toxic elements of masculinity that made our childhoods so traumatic, but we also brainstorm how can we salvage and recuperate those positive aspects of masculinity, and they do exist, on our journey towards healing. Let’s listen in.

Trevor Hoppe (02:22)
Nolberto Gonzalez, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast.

Nolberto (02:26)
Thank you for inviting me. I feel like very honored because I always like to talk with you. Our conversations are always fun, are always interesting, are always deep. And they have always this personal ingredient that is not just about theory, even if we talk about theory. And that’s what I think. It’s fabulous about you. One of the…

Trevor Hoppe (02:33)
It is a pleasure.

Nolberto (02:54)
hundreds of fabulous things to you all. So thank you.

Trevor Hoppe (02:59)
Absolutely. We met long ago

back in 2007 at a conference in Pueblo where you are from. So can you tell viewers and listeners a little bit about kind of situate them where you’re from, how, where you grew up and, where you became like a little sexual being.

Nolberto (03:03)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, I was born in Puebla, which is a very, not a very, very, very small town now. It kind of became big. Two hours far from Mexican city. It’s a very conservative place. It’s a very Catholic place. And I started to get involved in sexuality issues more like in the equivalent of high school.

you and when I started my university studies. First I was interested in sexual health in general and then my path went to HIV prevention and sexual and reproductive rights and then I started to do some work with my own body and my own image about trying to work some kind of some issues around about self-esteem in my image.

how I was perceiving myself and then I started to make some pictures of me every time with less and less clothes and then I started to make adult content and I was like balancing, know, like exploring both sides in parallel. Around these years, that’s when I met you, it was starting to get…

into conferences and seminars and all this academic stuff and in the meanwhile I was like exploring my sexual life first in terms of my body not just in terms of how it’s of how I saw my body or how I perceived my body but also in terms of perceptions of feelings you know like

physical pleasure and this elaborated pleasure. It’s a path that I have continued from all until today, of course.

Trevor Hoppe (04:59)
You, talked about growing up in Puebla and being a very Catholic conservative place. Tell me a little bit about what it was, let’s be like a little queer boy in a context like that.

Nolberto (04:59)
Wow.

Mm-hmm.

It’s very very very hard. It’s like like tons of people will be will feel related it’s a kind of a it’s kind of strange how lots of us have been like together in this feeling of isolation you know

Like being queer in a small place, in a place that is very conservative, in a place that doesn’t have a space for you. I remember, for example, every Christmas, I hated Christmas. And I remember Christmas as this period of time when I was punished for being myself in terms of…

you know, the big family gets reunited and here we don’t buy stuff for everyone because the families are huge in here. So we, we, what’s the word? We write down the names of everyone in little papers and then we give it. Okay. That’s, that’s it. So I remember that every year when someone got my name out of it,

Trevor Hoppe (06:09)
We call it a white elephant. Yeah. Yeah.

Nolberto (06:19)
They have a few weeks of course to buy a present for I remember that I was All the presents that I received were very very disappointed. Sometimes they were kind of cruel. I remember that I was like 10, 11 years old. And I received like a bucket of this kind of giant Lego that are for childs.

that I like in kindergarten because I was like, okay, these people doesn’t know me. And I remember when I was like 13 years, because I have always been like very, I have always you can always tell that I’m not heterosexual, course, you know? And that happens since I was a little child.

So I remember when I was like 30 years old, an uncle of mine gave me an image of Jesus Christ in a cross, like one meter tall. And I was like, okay, this is a statement, you know? And I was like, okay. And everyone else got phrases that they kind of liked because they have always…

Trevor Hoppe (07:19)
Wow.

Nolberto (07:28)
talked about what they wanted, they always talked about their desires, and they always talked about what they did, how they played, you know, as child, we give this information to the adults around us. But in some way, I always have this special treatment, and I was like, okay, I know these people just know me and just know how to treat me, how to face…

the reality that I’m putting on their faces. When I came out of the closet with my mom and my dad, I was like around 14. And it was a very, very interesting mental process that I went to because I’ve always been this anxious person. You know me. I have always been this…

Trevor Hoppe (08:07)
Wow.

Nolberto (08:21)
person with anxiety problems. So I was kind of into a girl during the school time when I was 40 years old. We were really into each other and my mom and my dad were very very excited about she and I being a couple or something.

Even if I was like kind of excited about this, I knew that eventually I would have relationship with voice. And in my head, there was a huge, huge horrible story about me giving the wrong message to my dad and mom that I was straight and then I had to keep on this lie during whole my life, you know?

And then I picture myself getting married for social pressure. And then I picture myself cheating on my wife and living with her with my kids to go out with some random guy in my 40s. You know, I was like a Mexican Telenorada. And then I, and the way I ended this Telenorada was coming out with them. I was like, all right, you know I’m into this girl.

Trevor Hoppe (09:17)
Yeah.

Nolberto (09:28)
I I have no issues with that. I hope you don’t have these issues with that, of course. But you have to know, you consider this warning if you want to, that eventually I will have, maybe I will have this with voice too. Sorry.

Trevor Hoppe (09:42)
what

a fascinating way to come out. You basically came out as like gay but with a girlfriend.

Nolberto (09:48)
Exactly.

And I’ve always had this openness. During some time of my life, I introduced myself as bisexual. Now I identify myself more as queer person. But politically, of course, surrounded by all these HIV calls, of course I’m politically…

Identified as a gay man because I have a lot of a lot of issues that crosses cross matter reality that it makes me configure myself as that but coming back to the Mexican telenovela of course, I that’s the way how I stopped it and That’s the way That that’s the way how I stopped how I stopped the telenovela

Trevor Hoppe (10:23)
That’s how it started? That’s how what?

Nolberto (10:29)
And that’s how I started to face my sexuality in terms of, so I think this is how, I think this is what life is about. Like facing the things as they are, maybe not trying to push things into categories or expectations or desires. And if I’m true to myself,

in this part, maybe the other will have the chance know if they accept me and to know if they there will be no false expectations.

Trevor Hoppe (11:08)
So

how did your parents react when you told them?

Nolberto (11:12)
was another telenovela. It was more like a serious and loud, and that was the second season. Of course, they sent me to the psychologist, of course. I went to the psychologist. She was a wonderful therapist. She was working in the clinic that we went to, you know, for the insurance we have for the government, you know, it’s a free clinic and they have a…

Trevor Hoppe (11:14)
Ha ha ha ha.

Nolberto (11:34)
access to she was very supportive and she was very wise and she helped me a lot to understand that there was nothing wrong with me. She said, and I have this tattooed in my said, I could help you to figure out if you’re into boys, into girls, into both. You have already figured it out. I can help you to figure it out.

Trevor Hoppe (11:46)
Good.

Nolberto (12:00)
figure out. If you are boys and girls and you feel some conflict inside of you, I can help you with that conflict but seems like you have this If you want you to talk to your parents about think I could help you to make a decision, to make what could be good, what could go

and you can make a decision. You already made that decision. I could help you to not feel guilty about who you are, not to feel less worthy for being who you are, but you have already done it. So it seems like now it’s your parents’ problem, and I’m very glad to help them if they want to come here. So I was like, I didn’t expect to get this reaffirmation of…

Trevor Hoppe (12:43)
Wow.

Nolberto (12:48)
Everyone out of my own head, you know, it was very life-changing absolutely that’s that changed my life and from this my I told that to my parents and The answer was so we’re gonna look for another psychologist and I was like Okay. Yes, they were like very committed to that cause They went to the psychologist they want to help but they

Trevor Hoppe (13:05)
no.

Yeah.

Nolberto (13:14)
they didn’t tell me. And you know the anxiety thing. Well, I decided, I think there should be a word in English. I decided unilateralmente, you know, like, just, I decided for everyone, I decided for everyone that I would never talk about it again until they come up with the issue.

And they telling me of course That they wouldn’t talk about the I would bring it to the conversation there was a six-year silence in my was a strange in my house during six years We didn’t talk about Anything more than the daily that’s when I started

high school and university. Of course it changed my dynamic with my family, of course. We were like strangers to each other. six years later, you know in Mexico we have this altars to the deaf people on November, Dia de Muertos. I started to work an association and we made an altar de Muertos, we made an ofrenda.

for LGBTQ people who committed suicide. We put it in a house of culture, it was a building in Puebla that works culture issues. It was kind of a demonstration. You get your group, they sign up and they show your

My mom went to that exhibition because it was a permanent exhibition and it was like a coincidence. I was there and she went into with my sister. And then that’s when she realized that I was doing all this stuff and that issue didn’t stop for me. did stop this conversation at home, of course, I didn’t…

Trevor Hoppe (14:59)
in those six years, yeah.

Nolberto (15:05)
I couldn’t stop working on it personally for a second. No one talked about it during the event, during the demonstration, you know? later at night, when I arrived home, my mom was washing I told him, well, thank you. So for what? Thank you for not making a serious scandal because that’s what you normally do.

you know, thank you for behaving, for being an adult. And she was you know, I haven’t talked to you about it and maybe this has been a mistake, but I want you to know that I’m open to talk about this every time you want to, that I been waiting for a chance.

from you to tell you that I’m more than okay with that, that I love you a lot, but I didn’t want to bring up to the conversation because I thought it would be invasive. And I was like.

You know, it was a very, it was a very strange feeling between reaffirmation, like, okay, I really wanted this. I can’t blame you for making this decision because in some way I made the same decision as you. In my mind, I was protecting you from the reality and in your mind, were protecting me from reality.

Trevor Hoppe (16:03)
Yeah.

Nolberto (16:26)
I can’t blame anyone but the culture. I just blame the culture. we kind of lost six years. After that six years, I had a full conversation with my parents. They told me they went to the psychologist and they loved her, but not as obsessed as I was with her. But then it happens that

they found a friend of them in the You know, there’s always this friend who has maybe not studies in some issues, but you give him, you give to that friend the ability, the title of that wise person, you know? There’s always someone who maybe didn’t study a lot, but there’s someone that you can fight, you know?

Trevor Hoppe (17:10)
Yeah.

Nolberto (17:17)
So they found this friend he has a very way He had a very strange advice for them but it worked in them and I’m thankful for they told me, we found this friend, we talked about this, we had just came out of the office with the psychologist like feeling kind of, you know, like confused and…

we saw this friend and he saw that we were like intrigued or worried and concerned basically what he told us was okay but would you love yourself right? He asked me

Yeah, but maybe people will treat him bad. Uh-huh. So, you love him, right? So you want him not to feel rejected on the outside. So you want to make for him a nice space at your home, right? And it was very effective for them. I think it maybe was a kind of a…

Maybe he speaks on their language. And I was trying to speak in another language, you know. Maybe it’s a thing between generations. Maybe it’s something that has to do a little bit more with maybe not trying to explain a lot of things, you know. And maybe that’s why it works on or on their generation.

Trevor Hoppe (18:18)
Yeah.

Nolberto (18:36)
I’m telling you to do this because I’m your mom and that’s enough reasons, you know? Maybe. Yes, exactly. And I’m very thankful for that. It took six years to get to this conversation, but I do feel bad about it. I feel that now my relationship with my father and my mother is great. I love my father. I love my mother with all my heart.

Trevor Hoppe (18:41)
Right? End of story.

Nolberto (19:00)
And they have known my boyfriends. They have known my spaces. Once I moved to Mexico City, they have came and visited. We have a very, very good relationship now. I’m still very far from my bigger family because I don’t think I…

Trevor Hoppe (19:18)
the uncle who gave you the cross

Nolberto (19:20)
Yes, I don’t know.

Trevor Hoppe (19:20)
you may be not so close with.

Nolberto (19:22)
Eventually some cousins come to me telling me that they had the courage to come out because I was the first one in the family. it also helped a lot that I was always this kind of nerdy, intelligent guy, you know, like a…

Trevor Hoppe (19:34)
That’s so great though

Nolberto (19:43)
this library mouse, have this expression in Spanish. And I was always that person. So I got good notes, was like, in my family I was known for the one that is going to be very, very intelligent, very successful and, know, smart and everything. So that was like…

the good quality that my family recognized about me and that in some way still put me on the map and I was very very happy that some of my cousins has reached me years before to tell me that okay I did it and thanks to you for doing something for not keep quiet

Remain silent.

Trevor Hoppe (20:30)
that’s really great that you were able to be that kind of trailblazer. certainly experienced the same similar thing in my family and my community where I was definitely ahead of the curve coming out at 14 also. So we share that experience. And I also, my parents took me to the psychologist also, and then the psychologist ended up being really supportive about the whole gay thing. It did not go the way that I expected it to or

probably the way my parents expected it to be honest. I’m grateful for that in retrospect. So.

Nolberto (21:04)
It’s

very interesting how we… Sorry, it’s just something that has just crossed my mind. There’s a lot of things that we need to change because it’s very unfair to put this pressure on 14 years old individuals. It’s very, very, very strange. And some things just have never changed. well, that was just the idea.

Trevor Hoppe (21:19)
yeah, I mean…

you’re growing up in Puebla, you’ve come out to your parents, but there’s the six years of silence. I presume probably your first sexual experiences probably took place sometime in those six years. Is that a fair assessment? What was that like?

Nolberto (21:45)
Yes, ah, that was very, very interesting, dad’s story.

I was in high school, I was 16 years old and I don’t know the age of the other guy but I’m very very sure he knew that I was underaged of course because they were in 2002-2003 to have internet in your house was a luxury you know

Trevor Hoppe (22:02)
Hmm.

Nolberto (22:17)
We had the cyber cafes. And you go around to computer per hour. And my God, feel like my teachers talking to me about the 60s. And then, and by that time, and at that moment in history.

Trevor Hoppe (22:28)
Right? It feels like a way, way back again. Yeah.

Nolberto (22:36)
We didn’t have apps in our cell phones. There was chat rooms. There was gay.com. And there was Latin America category. And there was gay men in black color. I remember that I was just… I went there. There was a cyber cafe out of my… just crossing the street.

Trevor Hoppe (22:45)
Yes.

Nolberto (23:00)
from my school. A preparatoria. Everyone is underage in preparatoria. So you do the math. So the guy who was in charge of the place, some time, know, some day I was like chatting with a random person because you have no information but the nickname. And yes, of course. Yeah. I think telenovela runs through my veins because I’m Mexican.

maybe and then in the momentary and then i receive a message and you insert the music of your favorite and then i’m the guy next to you with a i don’t know with a red shirt and i was like

Trevor Hoppe (23:25)
my gosh, that’s…

Nolberto (23:37)
You know.

Trevor Hoppe (23:40)
Whoa.

Nolberto (23:40)
I was very very

happy because I really like that guy. I found him very attractive. He had this nerdy look. He had a beard. He had a wonderful belly. He was cute. He was really really really cute. And I don’t remember how.

Trevor Hoppe (23:45)
Yeah?

Nolberto (24:02)
but sometimes I had to go to school on Saturdays for some signatures. Actually, I don’t remember clearly, but sometimes we had to go to school on Saturdays. And most of the things around the school were closed, and you have a lack of structure on these Saturdays. So I decided that I was…

trying to kill some time at the cafe and it was closed and I was getting out of the building where it was and I ran into that guy. I like I’m just gonna check some things in there so I will not be open today I’m sorry but if you want to join me to get these things you know upstairs just you and I was like alright that’s it yeah

Of course it was unprotected. Yes, it was unprotected. Of course I was yes. And I’m talking about 2002. It was way before prep. It was way before my first HIV test. It was way before a lot of things that I know now. And it was way before a lot of things that I consider. There are like a…

like the non-negotiable things that I have put myself in my sexual life. But there are things that I have solved later. In that time, I wanted to have this reaffirmation experience, you know, because I knew I didn’t feel pressured about there’s some experience that you’re losing that you have to, that you need to have now. I was like…

I wanted to prove myself that I was attractive to someone. I wanted to prove myself that someone would like to have this interaction with me. I didn’t want a boyfriend. a relationship. I didn’t want a happily ever after story. I wanted to feel desired. And that’s what I got. It was a sloppy yes.

It was it was not really really good He had one is the most gorgeous sticks I have ever seen in my life. I remember clearly

and it felt great. But yeah, it was the idea. But I have no regrets.

Trevor Hoppe (26:27)
What more can you ask for, for a first time?

Nolberto (26:28)
Yes, exactly.

I would have liked to have a little more preparation for that. You know, I have always been this very open person about things. So I wish I was the kind of person who would always carry condoms, for example. But I didn’t come up with the idea until that day.

So I was like, all right, I would have changed that to feel safer, to feel more secure, and to enjoy a little bit more of the experience, yes, because I was worried some days before, of course, I was very, very in terms of the experience and expectations, was absolutely satisfied, five stars.

Trevor Hoppe (27:14)
I love that. I love to hear that. that’s an amazing first time experience. I’m glad it was positive and fulfilling. Do you remember some of those early sexual experiences maybe that didn’t go so well that kind of you learn some lessons the hard way?

Nolberto (27:30)
yes, of course. And I had time to think about it. I had time, but there’s always so many things. The one that I have talked about the most, this year, some friends and I were talking about how the traditionally attractive people, know,

Trevor Hoppe (27:34)
Yeah.

Nolberto (27:50)
Egemonico? What’s the word in English for Egemonico? Egemonic? No. Egemonic, yeah. We have like this kind of… I don’t know. I won’t call it an idea because it’s more than an idea, but I won’t say it’s evidence. But well, you will get it as long as I start there. Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (27:55)
Hegemonic,

mainstream beauty norms is that is that

Nolberto (28:14)
Most of the time, the people that have the most of these attractive traditional features, most of the time, it looks like they seem to only need that and not to put some effort, not to put creativity. I’m just putting in here my attractive, my wonderful nose, my huge spectacles, you know, my muscles.

Trevor Hoppe (28:29)
Alright.

Nolberto (28:37)
And because I’m the ugly one, I’m putting all the effort, you know? So, we have this saying that handsome people have horrible thugs, basically. I remember in kind of these days, I was in Manhattan chatting in that siberica. Well, I had to go to another siberica.

So I was chatting with a guy that lived like two blocks from me, from where I was living. And it was this beautiful, traditionally beautiful, handsome man, very white skinned, you know, Mexico is a very racist country. Don’t let them try to convince you of the contrary. Very white skin, green eyes, a wonderful nose, very nice body, everything.

He sent me a message, hey how are you? Let’s meet. And I was like, I would gladly do, but I have to present a test in my school, so I don’t have time now. Can we do tomorrow? And his answer was shocking. I wish I could translate it fully. He was like, no, no, no, it’s not that I’m like you. I don’t like you, I’m just horny.

And I was like, how very down are you? know? And, course, yes, of course, I felt offended. Yes, of course, but I decided that that was going to be the only interaction. A few weeks later, he writes to me again, and I was like, oh, that was the guy who was rude with me.

Trevor Hoppe (29:48)
you

Fuck off!

As you should.

Nolberto (30:16)
And he invited me again. And I went.

Trevor Hoppe (30:20)
yeah, you capes.

Nolberto (30:21)
Because I always learned the

hard way. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I always learned the hard way. Yes, I don’t learn. I love to. I love the performance of learning even though I don’t learn. But if I enjoy the process, what’s the problem? So I decided to go with him. I entered to his bedroom with my backpack. I turn around to put my backpack.

Trevor Hoppe (30:26)
up in there.

Yeah.

Nolberto (30:48)
on the floor and started to get undressed. And he is on the bed with his niece in here, know, like showing his book, like, now do it. And like sniffing his, opening his bottle of poppers, you know. And I was like, okay, your mother ready, baby. I was trying to…

Trevor Hoppe (30:57)
Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Nolberto (31:09)
I don’t know, it wasn’t even my heart inside him. And he came. And I was like, oh. And I was like, what a waste of time.

Trevor Hoppe (31:16)
Uh-huh.

we have this song that’s from the 50s or 60s, I think here in the United States. It’s like, if you want to be happy for the rest of your life, never make a pretty woman your wife. And I feel like it’s kind of the same, same idea here, which is like hot guys are very pretty to look at, but sometimes they can be really fun, obviously, but they’re not always in it.

Nolberto (31:35)
Me- yeah!

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Trevor Hoppe (31:45)
You know, they don’t have to bring as much to the table in terms of skills and talent sometimes. on that body. Stop relying on that body is what, you know, the RuPaul expression. Yeah. So I feel that.

Nolberto (31:49)
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Exactly Yes, yes sometimes

Yeah, and I think it’s it’s very important to think that I always try to to to bring to myself What I think about other people? Even if I even if I Even if I’m telling you this story about this guy who was very very rude relying in some qualities of his body

I always try to think, have I some time behaved similarly? Do I have some behavior sometimes that may look like the same? And I think that it’s very important to think that maybe not about physical features, but I do rely on some qualities that I have. And I know…

that sometimes I have been abusive in that terms, of course. Yeah, I think I have if you want to change something, you have to acknowledge it first. So I was like, yes, exactly. And I’ve always tried to make this intellectual effort, but okay, there are some moments, there have been some experiences when I have tried to…

Trevor Hoppe (33:00)
You gotta start with yourself.

Nolberto (33:14)
take advantage of something or being unfair with some other people because I have pictures of the other think something important to think about. Exactly.

Trevor Hoppe (33:24)
We’re all human, right? We’re all human and we’re

on those apps and we’re horny. And sometimes we treat people with the same kind of disrespect that we get. And it’s really, you don’t even realize sometimes you’re doing it. There can be these power games where people play in terms of, you know, leaving you on read, like they’ll read your message, but they won’t reply. And you’ll be like, and then I’ll find myself sometimes doing exactly the same thing.

Nolberto (33:30)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Aha.

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (33:52)
For many different reasons. Sometimes you’re not being rude. Sometimes you just don’t know, you know, if now is the right time. you know, you have to reflect back on yourself and think, am I also doing and contributing to this pattern and how do I change it? And one of the previous guests, Shane Lucas, that I interviewed talked about looking for people that are curious, that want to know things about you and that you want to know things about.

Nolberto (33:58)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (34:21)
And I really try to keep that. It’s, hard sometimes cause people don’t like to talk a lot on those apps, but, but if you kind of select for people who seem genuinely curious about you and what turns you on and that you’re also curious about them and what turns them on, I think that can be helpful to weed out those guys like you’re talking about who are not curious at all. and, and not good fucks as you said.

Nolberto (34:27)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Exactly.

Yes, exactly. And it’s a lack of reflection, it’s a lack of curiosity. It’s like taking for granted that this thing will directly bring you to another one. And that this is all figured out because there is this other thing in the equation. And it’s just unreal. But some people take it for granted.

Trevor Hoppe (35:13)
Yeah.

Nolberto (35:16)
I can’t blame no one but the culture again, but well it happens

Trevor Hoppe (35:22)
Yeah, I had an experience ago,

sort of similar to what you described where this guy messaged me and couldn’t meet up right then. And I said, I said no. his response is like, wasn’t really into you actually. I just thought you would be easy. I was like, great. Well, thank you for clarifying that. What the fuck? Like.

Nolberto (35:41)
Okay.

That’s a very

rude thing to say.

Trevor Hoppe (35:47)
It’s awful. I think, yeah, and that can really…

Nolberto (35:50)
It’s awful. I remember my next boyfriend.

My next boyfriend told me the very same thing. You have people behind you. You have all these kind of people who invite you to dinner or something. But not because you’re handsome, because you’re easy. And I was like, okay.

Trevor Hoppe (35:56)
Ugh, I’m sorry.

just the audacity to say that and it’s a lot. It’s a lot. So you had to kiss some frogs to get to the good stuff. is today, what do you think the best sex looks like for you today?

Nolberto (36:11)
Exactly. Mm-hmm. Yes.

Yes.

the best sex looks like…

like two or more present their consent and their craziness in a playground. To me, good sex is a playground. To me, good sex is about taking pauses, you know, like, let’s pause it for a moment, and restart again. Good sex is about… Let me catch some air.

sex is about…so good, should I go upper? should I go lower? sex is about a good laugh in between good sex is about the chance to not being worried about how you are being you know

Trevor Hoppe (37:02)
Mmm.

It’s real.

Nolberto (37:13)
For me good

sex is It’s like I used to think of good sex like my own version of my own porn movie, you Considering there’s a fiction of course, you know? like the main videos that we I used to think of my sexuality as like my best sex, my version of…

best sex would be a porn clip directed for me, by me, you know? But I have started to make it a little more complex because it’s not about how it looks, it’s about how it feels and it’s about how the environment. So it’s the clip and they’re behind the scenes and the process of being right in it during the time you’re filming it, you know? It’s everything happening at the same time.

Trevor Hoppe (37:43)
That’s a nice way to think about it.

That’s right.

Nolberto (38:07)
I think it’s possible when you have the chance to be yourself and to ask for the things you want in the moment and you are open enough to let the other person be. And that’s great. I remember I had one of the best experiences some months ago with someone that I was…

He was attending one of my courses years ago and then we found each other again on Instagram and he was like, were the teacher in that, and I was like, yes. He was like, I wish I could have the chance to take you to dinner after this and everything. And I was like, well, you have the chance now. So we met, we talked a little on Instagram. We talked about…

Trevor Hoppe (38:48)
Yeah

Nolberto (38:53)
fantasies, we talked about things that we wanted to do, things that we’d like to. We defined like the base, the basics, sorry. And we had one of the best sexual encounters of my entire life. I was like, my God. mean, he was an athlete, but not exactly, not just in physical terms, you know?

because you see when a muscle is trained but in the conversation you can realize too you can tell when communication skills are trained too you can see when when when honesty is trained too you can see when

You can tell a lot of things when you talk to someone. So it was very, very apparent. We were like having fun. It was about having fun. And it was great. I mean, yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (39:49)
That’s awesome. I’m going to record this question so I can edit it back into that. So I can energize.

Nolberto (39:50)
Yeah. huh. Okay. huh. Okay.

Okay.

Trevor Hoppe (39:57)
But you’re sorry, hands will be problematic with, yep.

Nolberto (40:00)
sorry, Thank you.

Let me do these things before.

Trevor Hoppe (40:03)
So can you two…

Nolberto (40:08)
Is it my hair is in this phase when it’s growing but it’s not short but it’s not long exactly and it falls off? Yeah, it’s better. Thank you.

Trevor Hoppe (40:20)
So can you tell me about one of the best experiences that you’ve had? I’m just gonna edit that in too so that you can then tell that story that you just told. For the clips, it’s good to have a back and forth. So like I said, when you just stick to one story, like don’t, I remember a time when I just stick to the one. will be easier, I promise, in the long run.

Nolberto (40:24)
Hmm

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Yes. Thank you. I just let carry the way.

Trevor Hoppe (40:47)
Sorry to interrupt again.

I know, I love that. And it’s usually amazing just for the Instagram stuff, it has to be so tight. know? me figure, know where I was gonna go from there.

Nolberto (40:57)
I know. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (41:01)
So are you a lights on or lights off kind of guy?

Nolberto (41:04)
My lights on… that’s a good question. My lights on… It’s not about physical features, but there has to be something physical that attracts me, of course. Even if it’s… beard, chest, legs, whatever. There has to be something physical, yeah. There doesn’t have to be the whole package of physical features that I will…

like or if I detracted. I need a good laugh. Of course I need a good laugh. I need a good sense of humor. need a curious person. I need someone who encourages you to talk. I need someone, what turns me on is someone that when you say something that…

can be kind of censorship reason, that person asks you, and what else? You know, with very interest. I love interest in passionate people. I love people who, what turns me on is people that you say something about some situation, some fantasy, some…

that you want to do and and they took it and it and if you are this have you ever tried to imagine if you are this or if you put this other element I was like okay so someone who interacts with your desire that always turns out it also turns me on of course when someone has this

this ability to pause things, you know? Okay, let’s bring some water. Are you okay? Are you feeling It doesn’t break my fantasy. Aha, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn’t finish my fantasy, of course. It makes me feel like, okay, we’re taking care of each other, too. That’s something that should be on. What turns me off, it’s way easier.

Trevor Hoppe (42:40)
ability to take a break. Yeah. Yeah.

Nolberto (42:58)
The people who just lay down and wait for you.

Trevor Hoppe (43:00)
Well,

let me ask you that. know, sorry to keep interrupting. Now that I’ve edited so many of these, I just know what’s gonna work best. And if I ask you that question, will be, I can use it more.

Nolberto (43:06)
Tell me about it.

Trevor Hoppe (43:14)
So we got a good idea of kind of what turns you on, what turns you off.

Nolberto (43:18)
Oh, it turns me off. It’s a little easier. The people who just lay down and make you do all the effort. The people who just throw some crumbles of information and you have to figure out all that will happen.

Trevor Hoppe (43:24)
Yeah.

Nolberto (43:36)
It’s not that I need three or four hours encounter. I’m a big fan of quickies. we have to settle. We have to decide it together. know? I turn up entitled people.

Trevor Hoppe (43:44)
Really?

Nolberto (43:51)
I hate when people are just like, okay, but you see this beauty here in front of you, so you want to worship me, right? It’s like, have, yes, it’s like, I have not decided that and you will not decide for me unless it’s my fantasy in that, in which case I am still deciding, you know? That’s kind of what turns me on. People with bad moods in terms of, you know, in…

Trevor Hoppe (43:57)
Yeah, this, yeah.

Right.

Nolberto (44:19)
People who are rude, like people who are, I’m tired of. That’s why, it’s very easy to turn me off. And it’s very easy that if some people has already turned me on, it’s very easy to turn me off. I have learned to, I have learned to not continue with interactions that I don’t want to. And I have.

been and I have learned that I can stop being afraid of finishing an encounter if something doesn’t, if I don’t like something and I’m very, very, very in peace with that.

Trevor Hoppe (44:57)
Yeah, amen to that. How did you learn to say effectively? Because I think that’s what’s so hard for some people is not just, don’t want to have sex with you, but maybe I’m going to leave this situation because I don’t feel good it.

Nolberto (45:10)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well first I have to remind myself that this is not the encounter or this is not the last chance that I will have to have an encounter. I remember I have to remind myself that there is a lot of people that are into me that finds me attractive.

that want to have a good moment with me sexually and that makes me think with more confidence like, alright, this time it’s not happening, next time without a person, it will happen because there will be some other people, there are some other people that will be more compatible with the things that I want and the things that I want to

Trevor Hoppe (45:49)
Peace out.

Nolberto (46:02)
to bring to the and I will be more compatible with some other if it didn’t work, thank you for your time, my best wishes And that’s it. Yes, yes, exactly, yes. Yes, I’m not… Yes, yes.

Trevor Hoppe (46:13)
for now. I understand that, And

what you think, you described kind of the characteristics of what you think the best sex looks like for you. Can you, looking back, is there an encounter where you’re like, you know what, this is pretty much close to the best?

Nolberto (46:25)
Mm-hmm.

Close to the best. Close to the best. This guy that was my student in the course that I teach, like some years ago. There’s been some, I think that since 2015, maybe 10 years ago, I started to develop this workshop.

Trevor Hoppe (46:43)
Mmm.

Nolberto (46:58)
that is called Sessiones Explicitas. That is a sexual health workshop for gay We work at Naked. So from that course, I have developed some small workshops, Sara, short versions with very specific objectives. So there was some guy who took the course with me years ago.

Trevor Hoppe (47:00)
huh.

Nolberto (47:21)
And like some months ago, found me on Instagram and was really wanted to have some interaction with you after that cause. But I found it problematic. I knew that it wasn’t going to be the most ethical thing. well, now that I have found you and some years have been, I wanna talk about it. And I was like, I think this is a great time to talk about it.

And we talked a little about fantasies, we talked a little about situations, we made our schedules to work on together and we had a very, very good time.

We had this basis very, very clear about what we wanted to do. And it wasn’t like we had any script of what to do and what to say, but we had a general idea. And from that, we started to just to have fun and just to let each one carry their weight. was very, very, it was a very, it was about reaffirmation of course, like.

there was always this communication verbally about this is what I wanted to do, like yes, it go, and I finally have the chance of having, know, with all this desire and the tone of the voice, you know? And there’s also a lot of things,

Involving the whole body, you know not focusing in some parts of the body. It was like a whole experience and it was Like let’s make a pause. I need some water so we can keep on continue like this it was it’s very interesting how you can be like kind you’re like craving for someone but at the same time that you feel like you have

Praising for someone you also know that you still have time to make little pulses so you can still enjoy the situation So it was very very hard and intense sometimes, you know, and it was very very calm sometimes and I think it was about balance It was about Talking about what we wanted in the moment and and to continue

to the other one if we wanted upper the level making it low. It was like, it was great. It was like close to the best. I wouldn’t know which one to call my best but that was definitely one of the most recent and the most pleasurable ever.

Trevor Hoppe (49:54)
Great. You mentioned these workshops. Tell me a little bit about what you would do in these workshops, because I’m sure people are curious.

Nolberto (50:00)
Yes, of course. Yeah, we’re glad to do. Well, so Cedric’s Explicit Desks, Explicit Sessions, is a workshop that I developed with some inspirations in some Tantra workshops that I went into sometimes. You know, Tantra is more spiritual, and I make my workshops a little more practical, because I…

I don’t have a spiritual training in anything, but I do have this experience and this knowledge in practical things about sexual hell. I forget the other words, sorry. But it’s something like it’s about your own body and how you think of your own body, not in a spiritual…

terms, in just physical terms, know, very, very practical. And I came up with the idea of first, we need to learn about sexuality more relaxed environments and we have to give ourselves a chance to learn in terms of pleasure, not in terms of guilt.

Trevor Hoppe (51:06)
Yeah.

Nolberto (51:08)
or in terms of what could go wrong. And if we think of terms of what could go wrong, we have to think about what can we bring to the table that has been wrong during our lives. So there is like two big, I always say that this workshop has two strong legs. The first one is this, about experience, of course, and you have the chance to.

We talk about consent in every exercise. We always talk about consent in every exercise because I always have an assistant with me. Like a magician, there’s always one person with which I show the exercise first with that person. Okay, the next exercise is about this, this, and this. And I do all the exercise with the person that I have for demonstration.

Trevor Hoppe (51:46)
Yeah

Nolberto (51:59)
And then I asked to the team, to the people, is there any one of you that doesn’t want to do this exercise? And if someone raised their hands, it doesn’t matter, it’s great. You helped me to work on with the materials, with the message, oil, and all these things. I mean, you can learn maybe by not participating.

But if you participate, I want you to feel safe and I want you to feel comfortable when you participate. that’s the first thing. We talk about sexual health in a very consent, with a very specific perspective of consent. Because the other lack of the workshop is that even if we even if the people that signs up to the workshop, maybe some of them are gay men.

some of them are non-binary people that have sex with gay men. The thing is, there’s a lot of violence in our interactions. We still have the idea, the wrong idea, that harder is better, that deeper is better, that stronger is better. And not all the times, not with all the people.

And there’s some awful experience that people have terms of, couldn’t stop this. some people get hurt physically and some people get hurt emotionally. So other thing that we work on in the workshop. It’s a six hour workshop because it’s always step by step, little by little we go.

from very basic things to some other exercise every time with less clothes, every time with a little more ideas to complex and always after an exercise we always try to discuss the center issue. The exercise works as a…

as a provocation to speak, you know? It’s like, let’s use the exercise as an excuse to talk about some other ideas. it’s not just about getting naked with other guys, which I always tell people, this is not exactly an orgy. If you want to, I can manage drone. I’m very, very good at managing orgy.

Trevor Hoppe (54:03)
Yeah.

Nolberto (54:17)
a very good orgy organizer orgy planner, I will say. But well, what I always tell them is that it’s not like a… It’s more like a series of exercises and discussions that are from very basic things to more complex things about what is defined in us in our sexuality.

Trevor Hoppe (54:17)
No.

Nolberto (54:39)
being rude and violent with other men, being entitled to do things that the other people maybe don’t want to do. Because the most of the time when gaming talk about of their sexual encounters, they will use metaphors with violence. The most of them, wouldn’t know how to translate it in English, but was like

I really destroyed her whole, you know, was like… Destroying is really good thing in all this, the context. Is it really what the other person wanted? But if it… Because if it is, it’s great. But wasn’t what the other people was asking for. So, it’s kind of… It’s the first time I tried to talk about my workshop in English. It’s been quite a challenge. Thank you for that.

Trevor Hoppe (55:29)
I think you are onto something with this tendency to, I guess it’s just toxic masculinity that seeps into our heads and we end up using this kind of macho language around, I fucked him in half, you know, I just destroyed his whole, I,

Nolberto (55:42)
Mm-hmm.

Uh-huh.

Trevor Hoppe (55:47)
Part of that, I guess, is toxic masculinity. What are the good parts of masculinity that we should kind of promote and kind of foster and feel good about, and how do we separate that from the toxic stuff?

Nolberto (56:02)
a great question. You always ask the smallest questions. Because I’m going to be totally honest with you as I have been my whole life. The first idea that appears in my head is nothing but. Yeah, but I think about it for second and I said, okay,

Trevor Hoppe (56:20)
Right? Yeah, I feel that. I do.

Nolberto (56:27)
One of the first features that I think is like, there’s this like sufficiency, I think that’s the word, when you are…

able to speak your mind. You’re able to say what you want to do, what you want to have, what you want to say, basically. Yeah, that confidence that is like, all right, this is what I need. And even if other people’s tries to convince me that maybe you don’t want this, yes, I want this first. I think there also this crafty feature, like we don’t want to hire other people to fix something in our house.

Trevor Hoppe (56:42)
confidence.

Nolberto (57:03)
We have this confidence. Yes, exactly. I can do it myself. And I can prove myself that I’m good at it. Even if it’s my first attempt to do it, I will prove myself that I’m good enough to do this. It will bring me a satisfaction feeling.

Trevor Hoppe (57:03)
We’re supposed to be handyman.

Nolberto (57:21)
the other thing is like, socially we are encouraged to take some risks. And sometimes we see things as risks, but as opportunities.

Trevor Hoppe (57:27)
Hmm.

Mmm.

Nolberto (57:34)
And

I think that’s a very good thing in terms of, I remember a friend of mine in high school that said, if you don’t want it, we cannot do it again. If you didn’t like it at the end, we cannot do it again. So I think these are three features at last that as an adult I think of masculinity. And of course I’m not rejecting the idea of

that list becoming a bigger list during the following years. If you ask me the same question in one year or two years, maybe I will come with a bigger list.

Trevor Hoppe (58:17)
Definitely. I appreciate that because I think sometimes label of toxic masculinity, often we can see that and we can appreciate what’s bad about masculinity, but I think there are also good elements of it we also want to try to hold onto and not throw out with the bathwater. And as gay men, we obviously have a fraught and troubled

Nolberto (58:23)
you

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (58:41)
troubled relationship with masculinity just because of the nature of our society, but reclaiming that, that good stuff I think can be helpful people.

Nolberto (58:43)
Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (58:50)
always like to end with my favorite segment, Sorted Lives or Untold Tales or SLUT for short. What’s the sluttiest thing you ever did?

Nolberto (58:59)
the sluggiest thing I ever did. I was lucky enough to have a sex club like three blocks away from my house and I was starting prep and prep gave me a lot of permission to do a lot of things so I remember it’s one of my golden memories

Trevor Hoppe (59:09)
Nice.

Nolberto (59:23)
of my sexual life is one of the highlights. My first test to mouth. I like, yeah. My first, I haven’t experienced myself much as a bottom until the recent years and after PrEP. And I have gave myself a tons of options and things to do that I wasn’t able to do. I’m not just thinking that PrEP is…

is doing all the homework because in parallel I have made a lot of thinking and a lot of reflection inside myself and I’m always these people who wonders why and how. So I think that has helped a lot but yes there’s a lot of things that are like my sluttiest The first gangbang is a button.

That was quite memorable

My first orgy. I have tons. I have tons, And there’s some other things that they were like very, very slutty and they sound very good in history, but in real terms, they were very, very sometimes I fulfilled my fantasy of having sex in the beach.

Trevor Hoppe (1:00:23)
Hahaha.

Yeah,

Nolberto (1:00:43)
But it’s very, very uncomfortable. I was like, it sounds very sexy, like doing it and it’s like, no, there’s sand all over me, there’s sand inside of me. No, I need to stop it.

Trevor Hoppe (1:00:54)
Some places you do not want exfoliated with sand. It is just not the place.

Nolberto (1:00:58)
Yes, exactly. Yes.

But it’s good to have this experience because now I know that I don’t want to do it again. And no one is coming here to tell me, how does it feel? I have had the experience for myself and that’s my decision to make.

Trevor Hoppe (1:01:09)
Amen to that.

Amen. Well, that’s a really good place to end. appreciate it. Tell me if listeners or watchers, viewers want to learn more about you, where can they find you online?

Nolberto (1:01:14)
Yeah.

Bye.

Well, they can find me online in Instagram. My Instagram name is Noelle Rofian. I think we can write it down. So it’s my name in Instagram and an X, formerly known as Twitter. There’s lots of nudity and explicit material in X. So it’s NSFW, I think the other letters. Yeah. Instagram is little…

Trevor Hoppe (1:01:32)
Yes, I will tag you of course, yep.

And not safe for work, yes, exactly.

Nolberto (1:01:49)
more about education stuff and the things that I do daily and lots of underwear. That’s where you can find me.

Trevor Hoppe (1:01:56)
Perfect. Thank you so much, Alberto. I really appreciate your time and your wisdom.

Nolberto (1:02:01)
Thank you a lot, thank you for your trust in me, thank you for considering me as one of your guests. You’re a person that I admire a lot in every, and I’m very flattered to be here.

Trevor Hoppe (1:02:11)
Well, the feeling is mutual, for sure.

Trevor Hoppe (1:02:15)
That’s our show for today. As always, thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed today’s show, leave us a review on Apple, on Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your content. We would be most grateful for that kind of feedback. It keeps us going. And remember, if you aren’t having your best sex life, I can help. My services as a sex coach are designed to help you identify and overcome.

those obstacles that are standing between you and your best sex life. Find out more on my website, thebestcasex.net. Till next time.

OVERVIEW:

Masturbation: the gateway to blindness, hairy palms, and eternal damnation—or so the worst sex ed class you ever sat through might have told you. But in reality, self-pleasure isn’t just a solo act; for some, it’s a whole community. I’m joined by Bryan Bance, a seasoned bator who’s taken his love of self-pleasure to new heights—competing in BateWorld’s Annual Great Bate Off and finding a brotherhood in the world of bating. We talk about the stigma around masturbation, the rise of bate culture, and how jerking off can be a radical act of self-love, confidence, and even connection with others. If you’ve ever edged a little too long and wondered, is this a sport?, this episode is for you.

TRANSCRIPT:

Trevor Hoppe (00:09)
Hey, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Trevor Hoppe. Riddle me this, what makes you go blind? Grow hair on your palms and maybe even ruin your chance of having kids? Well, if you said masturbation, congratulations. You just might be the recipient of a really crappy American sex education. For literally centuries, American moral reformers have been doing the most

to try to keep young men and boys from touching themselves. Sylvester Graham, he invented the Graham cracker for exactly the same reason that John Harvey Kellogg invented corn flakes, to try to keep young boys from masturbating. It’s true, look it up. But as today’s guest reminds us, masturbation isn’t wasteful and it’s definitely not self-destructive. In the world of bating

Ironically, it can actually be a source of community. Bryan Bance has taken his love of self-pleasure to new heights as a competitor in season three of Bate World’s Annual Great Bate Off And I love saying that, it just makes me think of a really spicy British baking competition. But in the world of bating, Bryan didn’t just find pleasure, although of course, plenty of that was to be found. He also found

sustained real meaningful connection with other men and developed a certain kind of self-confidence about his own body. And he also really just learned to appreciate the male body and all of its messy, uninhibited glory. Let’s listen in.

Trevor Hoppe (01:51)
Bryan Bance welcome to the Best Gay Sex podcast. I’m so good. I’m so thrilled to see you again. We met over, I think, almost 20 years ago first, which is a number that is not logical to the brain, but is true.

Bryan Bance (01:55)
How are ya?

UGH!

No.

No.

Trevor Hoppe (02:08)
You were living then in San Francisco and tell folks a little bit about your sort of growing up, like where situate us back there in the Bay Area.

Bryan Bance (02:16)
Yeah, so I am Bay Area born and raised. I kind of spent my time up and down the peninsula I like to share. I’m originally from Redwood City. That’s where I grew up. I went to college in San Jose, so in the South Bay. And then as soon as I finished that, I ended up in San Francisco, where I lived for about eight to 10 years. That’s where I met my now husband. And after

Growing up there, we made our way across the country and have been living in New York, mostly Brooklyn, since 2016. So we are coming up on nine, almost 10 years, I think that’s when we can start to claim that we are New Yorkers. Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (02:54)
Native New Yorkers, right? Exactly.

totally. What’s New York been for you? Like compared to San Francisco, how do you feel they’re different?

Bryan Bance (03:02)
I mean, I think the obvious thing is just like the sheer size of New York, right? Like I think New York compared to San Francisco, like New York obviously has the reputation of being like the city, right? And I think as someone who grew up outside of San Francisco for a long time, San Francisco felt like the city and that’s what we called it. But now that I’ve been here in New York, just the sheer scale and the sheer size of people feels just immensely different. And by comparison, San Francisco,

feels like a small town. And I would say even more specifically so, like the microcosm of the Castro being the gaberhood, it got to a point where it felt like I was seeing the same people over and over, which can feel like a good thing on one hand, but also can get to a place where it feels monotonous too. So New York in general just exists on a very, very different scale than San Francisco.

Trevor Hoppe (03:58)
100%. Like I used to love walking around San Francisco, literally like you could walk around the entire peninsula almost in a day and just have a nice, a nice little day of it. But in New York City, obviously there was no walking around Manhattan. Like you would be dead. Yeah, totally. So what is your, what is your day job look like?

Bryan Bance (04:04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

No. No. No. No.

Yeah, so I’m in this kind of interesting transition right now. So I’m currently a graduate student. I am back in school. I’m getting my master’s in social work. It’s an interesting kind of circle back to something I had thought about exploring when I was younger, but I ended up falling into a very different career path. I was a, you know, retail fashion executive, which I hate even using that term, but I was in that field for about 15 years.

before getting sick of the capitalism of it all is what I like to say. And so I am, literally in the middle of my graduate program. And I really seek this path because I ultimately want to become a, you know, queer affirming therapist in the end. think there’s even in a big city like New York, there is still such a huge need for queer affirming therapists and more specifically, you know.

therapists who understand and talk about sexuality, being kink affirming, being gender affirming. And that’s one where I have a lot of curiosity and interest and hopefully more knowledge. But again, I feel like there’s a big need for it as well. And so that’s kind of what most of my days are filled with is being back in school. And then aside from that, I do dabble in some, you know, online content creation as well.

really kind of focus in on the kind of bator side of things, if you will. I’ve definitely kind of built up a reputation both online and here in New York as being part of the bator community. And it’s a place where I, you know, it really kind of fits in with what I like to do sexually, but it’s also been a place where I’ve been able to build a lot of community and friendships as well.

Trevor Hoppe (05:57)
Yeah, this concept of bating has become, I don’t know, it’s blown up, I feel like overnight. I’m sure it’s always been there, but it’s having a moment. What is, how would you define bating?

Bryan Bance (06:03)
Mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

I mean, it’s really hard because as someone who’s been, you know, involved with it more and more over the past few years, it really has so many different types of people within it. And within bating, there’s so many kind of sub genres, if you will. I think that language is something that’s really important and we may talk about a little bit later, but having this definition of, you know, a side or someone who enjoys non-penetrative sex is…

is kind of, think, what is behind this moment of where you’re actually talking about it. But we’ve all been jerking off and masturbating for a very long time. And it’s just become this thing that people are finally comfortable in being able to use language around it. But it’s interesting as we talk about it having this moment. Again, it has been around for such a long time. And one of the big…

Trevor Hoppe (06:46)
Yeah.

Bryan Bance (07:00)
things here in New York specifically for the bator community is this party called New York Jacks. And I mention it because it’s basically a twice a week, you know, party centered around masturbation. They kind of shy away from any sort of penetrative sex, but they in the month of February are about to celebrate 45 years of having this party. And yeah, yeah. And one amazing that a party can last that long, right? But two,

Trevor Hoppe (07:22)
Wow.

Bryan Bance (07:28)
If you think back as to when that started, that takes you back into the mid-80s. And a lot of these parties were born out of the necessity and what was going on with the HIV and AIDS epidemic. And we as queer people were trying to figure out what were ways to have safer sex with each other without the fear of getting sick. And that is really where New York Jerks, New York Jerks, New York Jacks emerged as

an opportunity for people to connect sexually again without the fear of, you know, contracting HIV during that timeframe. And so it was born out of this necessity.

Trevor Hoppe (08:03)
Yeah.

was just talking to Sister T’Aint A Virgin – I don’t know if you remember her from San Francisco days. I love her so much. Yes. And so she was talking about voyeurism in kind of a similar way that it kind of is a way to explore, especially in the face of epidemics like AIDS in a safe way. So I appreciate that kind of history, locating that. Obviously a lot’s changed since then. What does it take to be a bator?

Bryan Bance (08:09)
Mm. Mm-hmm, I do, I do.

huh.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I think it’s about being able to get in touch with yourself, right? I think, you know, there’s been a lot, there’s a lot of shame around sex in general. And I think that masturbation is something that’s been viewed as something that can be shameful. And it comes from, you know, yes, a very kind of puritanical and Victorian era thought. But I think a lot of that shame is also rooted in, you know, a heteronormative mentality where any type of sex that isn’t like

couldn’t possibly result in reproducing is sinful or shameful. And so I think to be a masturbator is to like, one kind of reclaim that shame and understand that taking your own pleasure in your hands quite literally is really powerful. And so I do think that that was kind of the first step of being a masturbator is like reclaiming and saying like, I’m going to have my own pleasure. I also think about that.

in the context of women too, and women being able to take their own pleasure in their own hands as well. This isn’t just a men only thing, but so reclaiming that power is really, important. And what I discovered, especially in the past few years, as I’ve kind of built up this friend circle of bators is that a lot of people may have the misconception that bating is a solo activity. And yes, it is something you can do on your own, but

I use that word community, like not lightly because there is a big community of people who like to share their masturbation with each other. And whether that’s in an exhibitionist, voyeuristic way, whether it’s online and video chat rooms, or it’s, you know, going to these parties like New York Jacks. And there’s been a few others that have cropped up in New York City as well and across the country. It is a place where people are able to come together. No pun intended.

and enjoy themselves. And I think, you know, while I’m not part of like the leather community or like the pop play community, like I would have to imagine that they also feel that camaraderie and, you know, brotherhood, if you want to use that language, that sibling hood, if you’d of just finding people that want to explore their sexuality in a similar way to you. So yes, it’s about being in touch with yourself, but I’ve also found that it is about, you know,

being able to find others and enjoy the company of others as well.

Trevor Hoppe (10:52)
Do you think there were early experiences that set you on this path?

Bryan Bance (10:56)
Yeah, I think for me specifically, and I think this ties to both my discovery of masturbation but also sex in general, is I’ve come to found that I had a pretty unique and open kind of discovery of sexuality. was a very curious kid and I did a lot of reading as when I was younger and as it relates specifically to sex, or sorry, to masturbation.

stumbled upon this website which still exists to this day it’s called Jack in World and Jack in World although it hasn’t probably been updated in over 20 years someone is maintaining the domain which is fantastic but Jack in World presented masturbation as something that was one so normal and two something that

didn’t have it did not need to have any sort of shame attached to it either. And it was presented in a very like matter of fact and educational way in terms of like, here’s how people can do it. And on top of that, here’s a bunch of different ways you can explore your masturbation. And you know, with everything from like, here are different like techniques being like different hand grips you could use to like enjoy your masturbation. Here’s different types of lubrications you can use and like,

You have to think like I was discovering this as like a teenager when I was like 13, 14 years old. And like, I didn’t have the ability to like go to an adult store and like buy lubrication. I had to use whatever I could. So it was like, we had baby oil underneath the bathroom sink. We had cooking oil in the kitchen and Jack and world opened my eyes to be like, you can use those as a new way to discover, you know, how to masturbate with yourself. but I really do think that.

It was a site like Jack and World that just really normalized masturbation as something that so many people do. you know, I think unfortunately, like I was saying before, because we’re in this heteronormative and sometimes conservative values around sex, a lot of people have historically been taught that masturbation is sinful. there were so many myths that were spread around of like, you’re gonna get hairy palms, you’re gonna go blind. Yeah, you’re going to like spend all your semen and not be able to get.

Trevor Hoppe (13:03)
gonna go blind.

Bryan Bance (13:08)
someone pregnant later on if you masturbate too much. All of these myths have been shared for such a long time, but I’m very lucky that I discovered Jack and World at an early age and a lot of those myths were dispelled for me. And so yeah, that was really kind of the point of Jack and World and really set me on that path.

Trevor Hoppe (13:28)
That’s amazing. I love the idea that something as simple as masturbation, not simple, but not even innocuous. It’s just this kind of sexuality that we think is entry level. I don’t know. It’s like the first thing you do usually. It’s the first kind of sexual experience you have, most people. And yet it can be so disruptive still, promoting and normalizing masturbation can be so disruptive because of that stigma.

Bryan Bance (13:38)
Mmmmm, mmmm.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (13:54)
That is still there, isn’t that wild?

Bryan Bance (13:56)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it’s like I just read a book. I’m looking over at my bookshelf because it’s right here. It’s by an author, Dr. Eric Sprinkle, and it’s called DIY, the wonderfully weird history and science of masturbation. And he really kind of dives into the full history of, you know, obviously kind of the Victorian era, kind of conservative values that came in. But then also what was the…

Trevor Hoppe (14:16)
Hmm?

Bryan Bance (14:20)
wrong science at the time about, again, what masturbation could do. you know, it talks about Dr. Kellogg of cereal fame, who’s one of the proponents that wanted people to stop masturbating for various reasons. And so

Trevor Hoppe (14:28)
Yes!

Graham

crackers, same thing with graham crackers. People think it’s just a delicious snack. No, that was supposed to be like a bland food that was going to make young boys not want to touch themselves.

Bryan Bance (14:36)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mm-hmm,

mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And so yeah, it’s just, again, you know, the misinformation that has been spread around masturbation, and sex in general, but I specifically masturbation is one that’s been targeted so much. And I think that it’s unfortunate if people don’t undo that level of shame around it because, you know, to get what you were saying about like, masturbation is such like an entry level quote unquote thing about sexuality, but for me,

As I become a stronger or more associated with bating and really involved it in my sexual practice, I do think that it’s made me a better lover with other people. Like, there’s no doubt that there’s a connection between being in tune and in touch with my own body and being able to be, yeah, be a better lover with other people.

Trevor Hoppe (15:32)
Well, I was just going to say, is there a time you can think of that where you like were actively aware you were like, wow, I’m doing something here with my partner. And this is something that I learned from this practice.

Bryan Bance (15:42)
Yeah, I mean, think the first and foremost thing, and I remember learning about this on Jackin World, is the experience of edging. They described it as like, you know, a stop and go technique, but being able to be in control of your body and realize, you know, when am I getting close to orgasm, getting close to ejaculation and being able to ease off on it and kind of pull back for a moment so that you don’t go over the brink too soon. I think a lot of people when they’re having sex with other people,

that is a common concern that they have is how can I last longer? Especially if they’re being the one who’s penetrating or is getting ahead or whatever it may be. And so I can definitely link my sexual acts with other people and being able to last a lot longer because I did practice stop and go techniques from Jackin World. I did learn to edge. And so I know that when I’m with people, if I’m getting close,

I either need to kind of stop and pull back for a little bit, I can breathe, and then I can continue. And so, again, that’s one example of being able in tune with my own body through solo sex that has made me a better partner for people.

Trevor Hoppe (16:50)
Yeah, I appreciate that reframing of edging a little bit because when I first heard that term and came to awareness of it, it sounded like, I don’t know, like, wow, you have a lot of time on your hands that you’re spending all day doing this thing. And then I think you’re right that for a lot of people, there’s all this anxiety that a lot of men have about coming too fast. It’s just a reality of our physical anatomy that we…

Bryan Bance (17:11)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (17:15)
Unless we know how to control it, we don’t, are not able to. And so I appreciate that the edging can be, and maybe if it had a different word for it, I don’t know, for some reason, the edging has always rubbed me the wrong way. No, no, no pun intended, but, but yes, it can help you control your orgasm. Period.

Bryan Bance (17:22)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And at the end of the

day, also makes your orgasms that more intense. like, you some people love to do that as well as a sexual activity. It’s be edged by someone else and, you know, it just makes your orgasm that much more delicious.

Trevor Hoppe (17:49)
Yeah, definitely. And it takes a certain intuition to kind of understand someone else’s body in that way to be able to read where is that brink and how do you stop in time to not go over that point. Do have any tips for that?

Bryan Bance (17:55)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm

I mean, I think, you know, it’s a practice makes perfect thing, right? I think a lot of people were so trained to like, that sex, the end of sex is orgasm. And so I think first and foremost, you need to reframe that like, orgasm isn’t necessarily the end goal. And if you kind of pull yourself away from that framework, I think that opens you up to realize that like, the journey could be just as enjoyable, or if not more enjoyable than the end point.

I just think we’re also trained to think that we have to orgasm at the end of sex that it can get us in our heads of like, when we get there quicker, because if I don’t, like, is there something wrong or what have you? So just remove orgasm and ejaculation from being the end goal can really help people kind of get into that mindset. And here’s the thing, if you mess up and you accidentally come when you were trying to orgasm, guess what? You can do it again.

The next day, if you’re lucky enough, maybe you can do it in 15 minutes from then, but like, it’s not the end all be all if you mess up once and you have the freedom and your body will allow you to do it and practice it again very shortly afterwards.

Trevor Hoppe (19:11)
Amen to that. I remember I was walking in Puerto Vallarta with a friend who had been to a tantric workshop and he ran into the leader of this workshop who was this beautiful, of course, just this beautiful man. And he grabbed, they were having a conversation about what it meant and how to practice this thing and he grabbed my friend’s junk and he was like, keep your sexual energy in here. And his challenge was to not orgasm basically to hold it back. And

Bryan Bance (19:16)
Mmm. Hmm.

huh.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.

Trevor Hoppe (19:40)
I still think about that moment, even though I was not the one experiencing that interaction. It was profound in the sense that what would it mean to recenter male sexuality away from the orgasm? It’s a, it’s not an easy feat because every time we turn on television, when we see sex, it’s over when the man comes and that’s.

Bryan Bance (19:50)
Mm-hmm.

And it happens in 30 seconds on TV. Like, you know what I mean? Like, exactly. it’s, think that, you know, again, for female identifying people or people who don’t have penises, like, orgasm is not always the end result for them. And sometimes it’s not possible for them to achieve that with a partner. And so, you know, again, it could help people who are not only in male-male relationships to, again, remove orgasm as…

Trevor Hoppe (20:01)
It’s…

Bryan Bance (20:24)
the end goal and realize there’s a lot more pleasure to be found on that journey.

Trevor Hoppe (20:28)
I think women have understood this a lot longer because I think most women will tell you in heterosexual sex that just like it is not common to have a vaginal orgasm or maybe even possible for most or many women. And so the reality is if you want to have an orgasm, it’s not going to be that time when you’re having penetrative sex unless there’s clitoral stimulation or other things happening.

Bryan Bance (20:31)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Yep. Yep.

Trevor Hoppe (20:56)
I guess men are a little late to this party, but it’s nice to be reminded of the pleasure that can come from that for sure. Do you think there was, like in this world you’re in now where you’re obviously having other kinds of sex as well as bating, like what?

Bryan Bance (21:04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (21:19)
What is the difference between those two kinds of sexual interactions? Do you seek out casual sex that’s not with your husband, that’s not bating?

Bryan Bance (21:28)
Yeah, I I think that, you for me, we were talking about like the definition of a side, like I don’t personally identify as a side because I do enjoy and have and engage in penetrative sex. And, you know, specifically you’re mentioning, you know, my husband, like he’s not in that bating world and that is perfectly fine because him and I have plenty of great sex, penetrative sex and otherwise with each other.

I think for me, the distinction between seeking out the masturbatory experience versus the experience of penetrative sex is really kind of about different types of connections. I think that because there’s so many different subsets of bettors, there’s kind of a lot of different ways you connect with people. And some of it is about not connecting with them in the ways that you would expect in penetrative sex. And so when I think about if I’m jerking off with someone,

Sometimes it’s all about showing off for each other and there isn’t a lot of physical connection and physical stimulation between the two of us. It’s more about being in the room with someone, showing off for each other. Sometimes there’s pornography involved and you might just be watching that together. And so it opens up these different ways of being able to find connection even if it isn’t physical versus…

Obviously, if you’re having penetrative sex, that is very physical and you are touching someone and you are having a lot more kind of this physical proximity and closeness with one another. And so I think that’s one of the ways that might be different between penetrative and in bator sex. I think on top of it too, the goal of bator being kind of in a bait situation might be to really kind of savor that edging that we were talking about and really kind of

get each other to that kind of point of almost coming and then pulling back and really kind of playing with that for a very long time. You know, I think the reality is that penetrative sex is that while we may hear about people who want to get fucked for hours on end, like a lot of people are also very happy to like spend 20 to 30 minutes in that type of way and like then that’s all their body can handle. And so I do think that there’s a duration difference and

Mindset that might happen between know, bare sex and penetrative sex if that makes sense

Trevor Hoppe (23:48)
Yeah, definitely. What about gooning? Where does gooning fit into all this?

Bryan Bance (23:54)
Yeah, mean, so I feel like that in particular has gotten probably the most publicity as I’ve seen more more like think pieces and articles. And so like, I think first and foremost, like, gooning for those who may not be familiar with it is this idea of like, getting so kind of like deep into your masturbation that it becomes this almost like hypnotic sense of mind and state of mind.

Yeah, exactly. And so like, there’s a lot of people who kind of, you know, might associate with like, being like dumb on your penis. And like, you just get to this point where like, you become one with your with your your deck, basically, it’s kind of a mentality. And yes, it involves a lot of people getting as they kind of go into this mentality, like a lot of like tongue being out and drooling. And I think

Not everyone, think first and foremost, there’s like a subset within the bator community that identifies as Gooners and not everyone who’s a bator is a Gooner. I think that people who get into that kind of, identifies Gooners, I think that they are kind of really taking a lot of freedom too. Like we were talking about reclaiming of like this shame that might be associated with masturbating. I think Gooners are kind of taking that reclamation to.

an extreme point of like, I’m going to like be so into my masturbation that like I’m going to look as like, free and stupid as possible. You know what I mean? Like, there’s some people that almost associated with like, you’re kind of like your bait or clowns in some sort of way. it, I think an outsider looking in might look at it and say like, it feels

performative to some people and who’s to say, like maybe there are some people that are performing in that type of way, but I still think that even if they’re performing, they’re doing it in a way that’s like freeing and trying to say like, I don’t care if I look stupid and I’m masturbating, like I love it anyway. Like, so I think that there is a kind of a freedom that comes along with people that associate with that kind of gooner mentality.

Trevor Hoppe (26:00)
Yeah, I the impulse, I share that impulse a little bit to be like, is that real? What is real? You just have to step back. We are always performing. Even if we’re in our own rooms, we have our own little security watch who’s like, oh, you don’t wanna do that. You wanna look at the wrong things. You don’t wanna get turned on in the wrong way or experience pleasure in the wrong way. So I get that there is always a performative aspect to it.

Bryan Bance (26:06)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Hey, man. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (26:28)
It looks great. Like it look I envy it like I would love to be in such a state of Zen’d out bliss I guess what I’m curious about with with both bating and gooning is how masculinity kind of figures into all of it because it feels very

Bryan Bance (26:31)
Hmm?

Mm-hmm.

Mm. Mm,

Trevor Hoppe (26:48)
bro-y and I like

Bryan Bance (26:49)
mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (26:50)
part of that but also as a gay man who was historically aggrieved by bros I it feels challenging so but maybe that’s the point I don’t know

Bryan Bance (26:56)
Hmm.

Yeah, I mean, I’ve thought about this too. And like, yes, within the bator community, there’s a lot of, you know, language and vocabulary that comes along with it. And I think you the nail on the head, like, there is this like, usage, particularly of the word bro, right? Like, I, people within the community call each other like, yeah, it’s my bator bro, or hey, bro, let’s jerk off together. And it does seem, you know, very like masculine male centric. That being said,

part of it I think is that that’s, I guess the language is so important and that’s just kind of part of like being part of the community. But that being said, I have met some very, very fem presenting and feminine, know, bators in the community that kind of slip into that language because it’s just kind of part of what’s expected in some ways. And so I don’t know if I have the exact answer to it, but like, I do think that it might be kind of,

again, kind of reclaiming some of the shame of, you know, masturbation being a shameful activity and because it’s not having sex with a woman and being procreative, like, is it less of a man thing to do? Like, I’ve seen a lot of, you know, things on social media, like from these like alpha male type of guys that say like, men don’t masturbate, stop masturbating. If you need to come, you know, you come with a woman kind of situation. And so

I do think that there is this reclamation of like, no, like masturbation can be a masculine thing. and, and just because you’re not having sex with a woman for the purposes of procreating doesn’t make it any less of a valid form of sexual expression. I think the other interesting thing too, within the bator community is that I would venture to say that especially like jerk off parties.

There’s probably a higher penetration or percentage, if you will, of men who may not solely identify as gay. I think that Badoff parties create a community and create a space that might be safe for men who are maybe, you know, again, unsure of their sexuality.

or don’t want to or are not able to come out for various reasons. If you want to use the term DL, that’s okay. And there might be also men who are straight identifying. I’ve definitely encountered quite a few at jerk-off parties. And so I don’t know how that plays into the masculinity piece of it as well, but I think on the flip side of this being non-penetrative sex, I think that creates some freedom for men in particular to explore.

sexuality with other men without fear of it being quote unquote gay. And I just find that to be very interesting. And again, I don’t have like numbers or statistics of other sex parties, but I just, in my experience, I’ve encountered a lot more men who don’t identify as gay enjoying masturbation parties specifically. And so that’s like an interesting thing to throw in there as well of what bating can mean to people.

Trevor Hoppe (30:03)
Yeah, I mean, I guess it’s not like the way that straight men or gay men are gonna heal our wounds together, but there is something appealing about the idea of finding a safe, yet sexual space for straight and gay men to be in the same room together. That’s kind of mind-blowing.

Bryan Bance (30:14)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, it’s, you know, I think you hear, or at least I’ve heard of stories of like, you know, when we’re all exploring our sexuality as, you know, teenagers of like, you know, two dudes may have jerked off together and just kind of explored that as a, you know, something when they were 15, 16 years old, but a lot of time then shame comes along with that. And so I think that…

Again, jerk off party isn’t even like a website like BateWorld is a place where I do see both bisexual identifying men, but also straight identifying men enjoying sharing their masturbation with other men. And I just think that that is yet another kind of place that people can kind of explore and reclaim their sexuality that was once thought of as shameful. And I just don’t think I see that level of exploration of non-gay men in other, you know.

sexual communities as much as I see it in the bator world.

Trevor Hoppe (31:16)
I actually, I hear you 100 % and I think that resonates with things I’ve seen as well. And so it’s just fascinating to think about. I am all for, especially as someone who’s just lived life as a little queeny kind of young boy, my relationship to straight men is problematic. I have a long history of feeling.

Bryan Bance (31:30)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (31:37)
It’s very hard for me to open up and feel vulnerable with a straight man given all the things that have happened. And it’s not rational, right? It’s not specific to a specific person. It’s just this, it’s trauma, right? And I just, I, for a moment, I just want to love and celebrate the idea of having masturbation parties to bridge that divide. So if you out there listening, I think it would be great to have more of those opportunities. What?

Bryan Bance (31:47)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (32:03)
I’m also on kind of a mission to find the good things about masculinity because it’s been a tough subject. I think my whole life, this disidentification I have with masculine, I’m trying now in my forties to embrace. What does it mean to be a man? To be a man, right? Even just saying that feels like, because you know, you’re just trained that men are do so many bad things and they do, but what about masculinity do you celebrate?

Bryan Bance (32:10)
Mm. Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting. When I have the same sort of reaction when I think about straight men, I think about even my time in corporate America, which is highly patriarchal and the way that it’s structured. And I think about moments where I felt uncomfortable were definitely in places where men ruled, were the leaders in those types of spaces and feeling very uncomfortable in it.

I think maybe similar to you and probably a lot of other gay men, my lack of masculinity was always questioned at a very early age. I remember when I was five or six years old, I used to, and this is showing my age of generation, I used to play as, do you remember Carmen Sandiego? Yeah, I mean, retrospect, fabulous, right? I didn’t understand why, but like.

Trevor Hoppe (33:17)
yes, that red jacket and that hat, yes.

Bryan Bance (33:23)
I used to like pretend to be her and like that was kind of like my like role play when I was like that age. And so like, I feel like I do have a very, really kind of like fraught relationship with masculinity. And, you know, I think for me, it’s, I’ve been trying to actually figure out how to actually make, it’s less about kind of like embracing the masculinity side and how can I make sure that.

The feminine energy is also just as respected as masculinity. Like I actually have a tattoo on my arm that says, let boys be feminine. And I think for me, that’s not only like, yes, let them express themselves as feminine if that’s the way that they are. But I think it is about what we associate with feminine energy. And that is about, you know, caring for other people, being more emotional with one another.

And so I think that in general, if we as a society embraced femininity and all that encompasses, I think the world would be a much different and better place in my opinion.

Trevor Hoppe (34:25)
I agree, but I don’t think we’re going to get to the promised land unless we also reconfigure masculinity. that’s, I used to be in the same place where I thought, well, we just need to embrace femininity more. And I think we obviously do. There’s no question. But I also just think there’s this elephant in the room that we that’s, and that’s why I think straight men, I’m getting way off topic, but that’s why I straight men are, are leaving like democratic spaces and other things because there’s been this

Bryan Bance (34:31)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Trevor Hoppe (34:53)
And I hate to say it’s, don’t want to say that we’re man haters from like a feminist perspective or whatever, but like there is this kind of refusal to look at masculinity in a positive light that I think can be challenging. And that’s what I think I see in this bate — And I bring it up because I see it in this bating world a little bit that there is something going on that’s kind of bro-y kind of masculine in its tenor, but it doesn’t feel violent or

Bryan Bance (35:04)
Mmm.

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (35:21)
It doesn’t have those negative attributes. And maybe I just don’t see those attributes, but it just doesn’t feel that way to me. I don’t know. Do you see any of that toxic stuff creep in there?

Bryan Bance (35:23)
Hmm.

Thanks.

You know, I don’t. I think it does come down to the fact of, one, again, we’re kind of reclaiming lot of tropes that maybe have been hateful against us. I think a big thing of, you see a lot of bears do, is the flexing kind of thing. It’s a big kind of pose that we do. And again, I feel like that’s a bit of us reclaiming this idea of what it is expected to be a man. What a masculine, muscular man jerk off in a room with a bunch of other dudes.

Trevor Hoppe (35:46)
yeah.

Bryan Bance (35:59)
you maybe wouldn’t expect that of when you think of masculinity. Yes, you think of being a bro, but what do bros do? We’re gonna go out and get drunk and find a bunch of bitches. You know what I mean? So like, right? And sort of like flip that on its head and it’s like, no, I’m actually going to be really, if you think about it, jerking off with someone else, you’re putting yourself in a very vulnerable position as any type of sex with someone else is, but I think.

Trevor Hoppe (36:10)
some chicks, yeah!

Bryan Bance (36:25)
you know, masturbation specifically, you’re putting yourself, being very vulnerable with someone else. And so I think it is taking those tropes or those stereotypical things and pulling it into a sexual space like masturbation does that really, I think, is a way to make us more vulnerable. And so, yeah, I can’t really recall any moments where like,

I left a bait space in particular that was like, that felt like toxic masculinity. Yeah, despite all the bro talk and that type of thing, does feel very, it still feels very queer in many ways.

Trevor Hoppe (36:57)
Yeah.

Yeah, it’s got that kind of fraternity aspect to it and the like Greek way that it’s like.

Bryan Bance (37:10)
Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (37:10)
fraternal

orders or whatever, brotherhood, those words you mentioned earlier that can be quite positive. So I’m just here to reclaim some of that, not necessarily reclaim, but to reimagine masculinity in this positive way and to celebrate that and femininity, right? We have to do both and all the space in between. anyways, I appreciate you letting me go down that little rabbit hole, because it’s been my thing I’ve been thinking about a lot.

Bryan Bance (37:12)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Anytime.

Trevor Hoppe (37:39)
If someone out there wants to get into bating, what would you tell them to do?

Bryan Bance (37:45)
I would say first and foremost, the internet is your friend and I think that there’s a fantastic social media site that is centered around masturbation and that is BaitWorld. BaitWorld has been around, they’re celebrating 15 years this year and it is a place where you can create your own kind of social, it’s like a social media site, so you can create a profile, you can put pictures up.

You can find people who are located close to you. If you’re someone who doesn’t want to take that step of meeting with someone in person, can, you know, they have a very thriving video chat room. That’s a place where I might spend some frequent time myself as an exhibitionist. It’s definitely something that tickles my fancy, but I think that Baitworld, while I’ll admit the website interface could use maybe some modernization, let’s just say that.

It is still, I think, the go-to place where people who identify as bators or enjoy masturbation seek out. And a lot of people, you know, find friends and find their community through BaitWorld. You can also easily on BaitWorld find local jerk-off clubs. Lots of cities nowadays have cropped up with these types of parties. You know, obviously I mentioned New York.

There’s some thriving ones in places like, you know, Denver, Seattle, Chicago, San Francisco, interestingly enough, I think one of them is finally kind of resurging. There was a longstanding SFJex that closed down, I think, pre-pandemic and a different group is kind of picking up the mantle. But, you know, I know it can be super intimidating to go to any type of sex party, but again, in my experience as someone who’s been to both

bait-centered sex parties, well as more quote unquote traditional sex parties where penetration happens, you can kind of make it what you want and that you are, I’ve never felt pressured to do anything I didn’t want to at a bait party. And so I would encourage people to take that leap of faith and not to be afraid to go to a bait party because…

Every time that I go to New York Jax, I leave with a new connection. And that has grown to now become, you know, a group of people that I consider friends and that, yes, we jerk off together, but we also hang out, get lunch, do drinks and that type of thing. And it really has built up this community. And I think that for any sexual kink or fetish, is something that we all seek out as other people who can help validate and help us explore, explore it in a safe way.

Trevor Hoppe (40:21)
I’ll just ask one more question about that because I hear this from a lot of guys in many different ways, but a lot of guys have anxiety about size because there’s just so much, you know, in porn it’s a diskewed perspective on what the male anatomy looks like. What would you tell someone who is anxious about that?

Bryan Bance (40:25)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm. Mmm.

I have seen all different shapes and sizes of not just like dick size, but also just men in general. again, as someone who’s spent time in both types of spaces, I do find that the bait world, and I’d say that in general, not just baitworld.com, but the bating world is much more inclusive in terms of body types, in terms of age. Again, New York Jacks has been around for 45 years.

there are some men that have probably been going for all 45 years who still show up. And so I have really kind of seen the gamut of people at this party. And because it is kind of a choose your own adventure of like whether you’re going to like be heavily involved in touching other people or maybe you’re just gonna sit back and kind of jerk off on your own. I have never seen anyone be rejected because of the size of their dick, the size of their body.

or any of that type of thing. I do feel like it is a very inclusive community and space in general.

Trevor Hoppe (41:38)
Yeah, and I’ll just add one more thing to that, which I helped me be comfortable with my own body and the way it is, going to a Korean spa. I know that sounds wild, but a space where men are all naked and it’s not sexual to me. I don’t go there seeking sexual entertainment or enjoyment, but I do get to see all the ways that men’s bodies can look. And it made me just appreciate my own body so much more.

Bryan Bance (41:48)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Yeah, I love that. It makes me think of San Francisco, Kabuki, not at a Korean spot, it’s more Japanese, but Kabuki was a place where like, yeah, the idea of just, you know, social nudity and sexuality, you know, sex not having to be the end result of it, I think really does normalize just how different our bodies can be. And that’s a wonderful and beautiful thing.

Trevor Hoppe (42:07)
is.

Yes.

Yes.

It’s so validating and I know that word is overused, but it’s true. It really can assuage you of a lot of those fears and anxieties you have about your own body because it’s just a body. it’s, we are not models, most of us. And that’s not just not okay. It’s like good, like.

Bryan Bance (42:36)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (42:45)
we should celebrate those differences. Anyways, I’ll hop off my soapbox there, but I just, appreciate that bating those parties might be another opportunity to get comfortable with your own body, but it’s hard in America. Ugh.

Bryan Bance (42:45)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

my God. It’s so difficult

and like the prevalence of like social media and how we present our sexuality on social media again as someone who does that himself. Like I think for me, like I’m not a guy who has, you know, a built body by any means. I’ve never had a six pack. I don’t think I ever will. And I think for me, part of the reason why I enjoy

you know, showing off and having this online alt world that I live in is that I wanted to be able to like reclaim, again, I’m using this word a lot, but like reclaiming my own body and being comfortable with it and realizing that like, I don’t have to like hide it, even though it’s been so ingrained, especially in queer gay men that like, this is the archetype, how you have to look like, you have to be, you know, at one point it was smooth, slim, like, you know, that type of, you know.

Body type was what I grew up seeing as from a sexual perspective, XY Magazine, Queer as Folk, right? Like was so ingrained for a long time that to be able to like show off that I have a different body type than that is very validating and very, you know, sexy as well. And so it is difficult, but I think that once you get to a point where you feel comfortable, like at least for me, it’s like I will never kind of like.

go back to feeling ashamed about my body.

Trevor Hoppe (44:18)
Amen to that. And that is

a tough mountain to climb. So I applaud you for getting to that point because it’s really hard. And it’s not just for gay people. Growing up, I remember family members saying a lot of someone was shirtless on the beach or something who didn’t have a perfect life. It’s like, no one wants to see that. Just those little, we might call them microaggressions, but just those normative statements about what a body should look. And the funny thing is, that it’s not like those family members…

Bryan Bance (44:22)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (44:44)
They had the same, they looked the same. It’s like, and so you know they’re just projecting their own feelings about their own body, but it has this negative effect on everyone else. So I appreciate you celebrating what a body looks like, what a fabulous, lovely male body cannon does look like, because that’s brave in this world. And I don’t know, I’m applauding of that. So thank you.

Bryan Bance (44:45)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

know you’re saying like being shirtless to take me back to like, I was the kid that like left his shirt on the beach or the pool and that type situation. And so I think it’s wild that I at this point, feel comfortable with showing the entirety of my body, my whole naked body on online. I came to that realization last year that was like, wow, like you have come a long way. And yeah, I appreciate you saying that you’re proud of I’m proud of myself too, if I’m being honest.

Trevor Hoppe (45:35)
Good, you should be.

I was that same kid and like, I remember a couple, I’ve come a long way in recent years and I remember taking my shirt off with my family at the beach, right, like such a non-event event, but, and my little niece being like, why are you naked? And it was just a funny moment, cause you know, to her that was naked and I don’t know, that makes my heart break a little bit, but.

Bryan Bance (45:42)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Woo-woo.

Trevor Hoppe (45:58)
I’m glad to take it off and show and

celebrate what a body can look like. anyways, well, this brings us to our final segment, which I like to call Sordid Lives and Untold Tales or SLUT for short. What’s the sluttiest thing you ever did?

Bryan Bance (46:04)
Absolutely.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, as someone who has lived and explored sexuality for a long time, it was hard for me to narrow it down, but I’ll bring it to what we’ve been talking about and something kind of better focused. So in October of 2023, my birthday is in October, I had been going to New York Jacks for a while and had kind of built up a relationship.

both with people that went there, but also a few of the folks who organized the party. And so I decided in that year to celebrate my birthday at Jax. And so kind of in coordination with the organizers of the party, we promoted it online. People knew, you I was hoping that people would know that it was my birthday. And lo and behold, when we got to the party, which

was like a Sunday afternoon. was so heartwarming and also very sexy to have a bunch of men come up to me and be like, it’s your birthday? And come up to me and give me a little kiss or maybe a little tug on my penis type situation. And the hottest part is that at the end of the party, I ended up becoming the bukkake boy, if you will. And so to then have

You know, I honestly lost count of how many people it was, but to kind of be the center of attention to literally have all of these men like come all over me was one of the most kind of like hottest experiences. And I left there one, you know, sticky and messy, of course, but to also kind of like, yeah, my heart was warmed because I was like, it did feel like I was celebrating this part of me on my birthday and doing it in such a kind of a

public and communal way. And so yeah, I think that is one of kind of like the sluttiest kind of bator centric things that I’ve done. And I enjoyed it so much that I did it again this last year in October. So who knows, maybe it now will become this kind of annual, you know, birthday tradition where I get to celebrate it with a bunch of other, you know, Baders.

jerk off party. that’s the one that comes to mind for sure.

Trevor Hoppe (48:23)
I love that so much. That is a fabulous way to spend your birthday, if I do say so myself. Well, if people listening want to learn more about you or see this content that you are producing, where can they find you?

Bryan Bance (48:29)
Okay, I’m sorry.

Mm-hmm.

So I am on several different platforms. My at is xybkbry. So you can find me on Blue Sky. You can find me on Bate World. And you can also find me on Just For Fans. And yeah, that’s where you can find me.

Trevor Hoppe (48:54)
Fabulous. Well, thank you so much, Bryan. I appreciate your love for bating and sharing it with the world.

Bryan Bance (48:58)
Mm-hmm.

Of course. Thank you for having me.

Trevor Hoppe (49:02)
That’s our episode for today. Thank you as always so much for listening. And remember, if you’re not having your best sex, I’m here to help. My services as a sex coach can help you identify and overcome those obstacles that are standing between you and your best sex life. Find out more on my website, thebestgaysex.net. See you next time.