S01E10 – “Taking Time” ft. Manny Ocasio

OVERVIEW:

Masturbation: the gateway to blindness, hairy palms, and eternal damnation—or so the worst sex ed class you ever sat through might have told you. But in reality, self-pleasure isn’t just a solo act; for some, it’s a whole community. I’m joined by Bryan Bance, a seasoned bator who’s taken his love of self-pleasure to new heights—competing in BateWorld’s Annual Great Bate Off and finding a brotherhood in the world of bating. We talk about the stigma around masturbation, the rise of bate culture, and how jerking off can be a radical act of self-love, confidence, and even connection with others. If you’ve ever edged a little too long and wondered, is this a sport?, this episode is for you.

TRANSCRIPT:

Trevor Hoppe (00:09)
Hey, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Trevor Hoppe. Riddle me this, what makes you go blind? Grow hair on your palms and maybe even ruin your chance of having kids? Well, if you said masturbation, congratulations. You just might be the recipient of a really crappy American sex education. For literally centuries, American moral reformers have been doing the most

to try to keep young men and boys from touching themselves. Sylvester Graham, he invented the Graham cracker for exactly the same reason that John Harvey Kellogg invented corn flakes, to try to keep young boys from masturbating. It’s true, look it up. But as today’s guest reminds us, masturbation isn’t wasteful and it’s definitely not self-destructive. In the world of bating

Ironically, it can actually be a source of community. Bryan Bance has taken his love of self-pleasure to new heights as a competitor in season three of Bate World’s Annual Great Bate Off And I love saying that, it just makes me think of a really spicy British baking competition. But in the world of bating, Bryan didn’t just find pleasure, although of course, plenty of that was to be found. He also found

sustained real meaningful connection with other men and developed a certain kind of self-confidence about his own body. And he also really just learned to appreciate the male body and all of its messy, uninhibited glory. Let’s listen in.

Trevor Hoppe (01:51)
Bryan Bance welcome to the Best Gay Sex podcast. I’m so good. I’m so thrilled to see you again. We met over, I think, almost 20 years ago first, which is a number that is not logical to the brain, but is true.

Bryan Bance (01:55)
How are ya?

UGH!

No.

No.

Trevor Hoppe (02:08)
You were living then in San Francisco and tell folks a little bit about your sort of growing up, like where situate us back there in the Bay Area.

Bryan Bance (02:16)
Yeah, so I am Bay Area born and raised. I kind of spent my time up and down the peninsula I like to share. I’m originally from Redwood City. That’s where I grew up. I went to college in San Jose, so in the South Bay. And then as soon as I finished that, I ended up in San Francisco, where I lived for about eight to 10 years. That’s where I met my now husband. And after

Growing up there, we made our way across the country and have been living in New York, mostly Brooklyn, since 2016. So we are coming up on nine, almost 10 years, I think that’s when we can start to claim that we are New Yorkers. Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (02:54)
Native New Yorkers, right? Exactly.

totally. What’s New York been for you? Like compared to San Francisco, how do you feel they’re different?

Bryan Bance (03:02)
I mean, I think the obvious thing is just like the sheer size of New York, right? Like I think New York compared to San Francisco, like New York obviously has the reputation of being like the city, right? And I think as someone who grew up outside of San Francisco for a long time, San Francisco felt like the city and that’s what we called it. But now that I’ve been here in New York, just the sheer scale and the sheer size of people feels just immensely different. And by comparison, San Francisco,

feels like a small town. And I would say even more specifically so, like the microcosm of the Castro being the gaberhood, it got to a point where it felt like I was seeing the same people over and over, which can feel like a good thing on one hand, but also can get to a place where it feels monotonous too. So New York in general just exists on a very, very different scale than San Francisco.

Trevor Hoppe (03:58)
100%. Like I used to love walking around San Francisco, literally like you could walk around the entire peninsula almost in a day and just have a nice, a nice little day of it. But in New York City, obviously there was no walking around Manhattan. Like you would be dead. Yeah, totally. So what is your, what is your day job look like?

Bryan Bance (04:04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

No. No. No. No.

Yeah, so I’m in this kind of interesting transition right now. So I’m currently a graduate student. I am back in school. I’m getting my master’s in social work. It’s an interesting kind of circle back to something I had thought about exploring when I was younger, but I ended up falling into a very different career path. I was a, you know, retail fashion executive, which I hate even using that term, but I was in that field for about 15 years.

before getting sick of the capitalism of it all is what I like to say. And so I am, literally in the middle of my graduate program. And I really seek this path because I ultimately want to become a, you know, queer affirming therapist in the end. think there’s even in a big city like New York, there is still such a huge need for queer affirming therapists and more specifically, you know.

therapists who understand and talk about sexuality, being kink affirming, being gender affirming. And that’s one where I have a lot of curiosity and interest and hopefully more knowledge. But again, I feel like there’s a big need for it as well. And so that’s kind of what most of my days are filled with is being back in school. And then aside from that, I do dabble in some, you know, online content creation as well.

really kind of focus in on the kind of bator side of things, if you will. I’ve definitely kind of built up a reputation both online and here in New York as being part of the bator community. And it’s a place where I, you know, it really kind of fits in with what I like to do sexually, but it’s also been a place where I’ve been able to build a lot of community and friendships as well.

Trevor Hoppe (05:57)
Yeah, this concept of bating has become, I don’t know, it’s blown up, I feel like overnight. I’m sure it’s always been there, but it’s having a moment. What is, how would you define bating?

Bryan Bance (06:03)
Mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

I mean, it’s really hard because as someone who’s been, you know, involved with it more and more over the past few years, it really has so many different types of people within it. And within bating, there’s so many kind of sub genres, if you will. I think that language is something that’s really important and we may talk about a little bit later, but having this definition of, you know, a side or someone who enjoys non-penetrative sex is…

is kind of, think, what is behind this moment of where you’re actually talking about it. But we’ve all been jerking off and masturbating for a very long time. And it’s just become this thing that people are finally comfortable in being able to use language around it. But it’s interesting as we talk about it having this moment. Again, it has been around for such a long time. And one of the big…

Trevor Hoppe (06:46)
Yeah.

Bryan Bance (07:00)
things here in New York specifically for the bator community is this party called New York Jacks. And I mention it because it’s basically a twice a week, you know, party centered around masturbation. They kind of shy away from any sort of penetrative sex, but they in the month of February are about to celebrate 45 years of having this party. And yeah, yeah. And one amazing that a party can last that long, right? But two,

Trevor Hoppe (07:22)
Wow.

Bryan Bance (07:28)
If you think back as to when that started, that takes you back into the mid-80s. And a lot of these parties were born out of the necessity and what was going on with the HIV and AIDS epidemic. And we as queer people were trying to figure out what were ways to have safer sex with each other without the fear of getting sick. And that is really where New York Jerks, New York Jerks, New York Jacks emerged as

an opportunity for people to connect sexually again without the fear of, you know, contracting HIV during that timeframe. And so it was born out of this necessity.

Trevor Hoppe (08:03)
Yeah.

was just talking to Sister T’Aint A Virgin – I don’t know if you remember her from San Francisco days. I love her so much. Yes. And so she was talking about voyeurism in kind of a similar way that it kind of is a way to explore, especially in the face of epidemics like AIDS in a safe way. So I appreciate that kind of history, locating that. Obviously a lot’s changed since then. What does it take to be a bator?

Bryan Bance (08:09)
Mm. Mm-hmm, I do, I do.

huh.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I think it’s about being able to get in touch with yourself, right? I think, you know, there’s been a lot, there’s a lot of shame around sex in general. And I think that masturbation is something that’s been viewed as something that can be shameful. And it comes from, you know, yes, a very kind of puritanical and Victorian era thought. But I think a lot of that shame is also rooted in, you know, a heteronormative mentality where any type of sex that isn’t like

couldn’t possibly result in reproducing is sinful or shameful. And so I think to be a masturbator is to like, one kind of reclaim that shame and understand that taking your own pleasure in your hands quite literally is really powerful. And so I do think that that was kind of the first step of being a masturbator is like reclaiming and saying like, I’m going to have my own pleasure. I also think about that.

in the context of women too, and women being able to take their own pleasure in their own hands as well. This isn’t just a men only thing, but so reclaiming that power is really, important. And what I discovered, especially in the past few years, as I’ve kind of built up this friend circle of bators is that a lot of people may have the misconception that bating is a solo activity. And yes, it is something you can do on your own, but

I use that word community, like not lightly because there is a big community of people who like to share their masturbation with each other. And whether that’s in an exhibitionist, voyeuristic way, whether it’s online and video chat rooms, or it’s, you know, going to these parties like New York Jacks. And there’s been a few others that have cropped up in New York City as well and across the country. It is a place where people are able to come together. No pun intended.

and enjoy themselves. And I think, you know, while I’m not part of like the leather community or like the pop play community, like I would have to imagine that they also feel that camaraderie and, you know, brotherhood, if you want to use that language, that sibling hood, if you’d of just finding people that want to explore their sexuality in a similar way to you. So yes, it’s about being in touch with yourself, but I’ve also found that it is about, you know,

being able to find others and enjoy the company of others as well.

Trevor Hoppe (10:52)
Do you think there were early experiences that set you on this path?

Bryan Bance (10:56)
Yeah, I think for me specifically, and I think this ties to both my discovery of masturbation but also sex in general, is I’ve come to found that I had a pretty unique and open kind of discovery of sexuality. was a very curious kid and I did a lot of reading as when I was younger and as it relates specifically to sex, or sorry, to masturbation.

stumbled upon this website which still exists to this day it’s called Jack in World and Jack in World although it hasn’t probably been updated in over 20 years someone is maintaining the domain which is fantastic but Jack in World presented masturbation as something that was one so normal and two something that

didn’t have it did not need to have any sort of shame attached to it either. And it was presented in a very like matter of fact and educational way in terms of like, here’s how people can do it. And on top of that, here’s a bunch of different ways you can explore your masturbation. And you know, with everything from like, here are different like techniques being like different hand grips you could use to like enjoy your masturbation. Here’s different types of lubrications you can use and like,

You have to think like I was discovering this as like a teenager when I was like 13, 14 years old. And like, I didn’t have the ability to like go to an adult store and like buy lubrication. I had to use whatever I could. So it was like, we had baby oil underneath the bathroom sink. We had cooking oil in the kitchen and Jack and world opened my eyes to be like, you can use those as a new way to discover, you know, how to masturbate with yourself. but I really do think that.

It was a site like Jack and World that just really normalized masturbation as something that so many people do. you know, I think unfortunately, like I was saying before, because we’re in this heteronormative and sometimes conservative values around sex, a lot of people have historically been taught that masturbation is sinful. there were so many myths that were spread around of like, you’re gonna get hairy palms, you’re gonna go blind. Yeah, you’re going to like spend all your semen and not be able to get.

Trevor Hoppe (13:03)
gonna go blind.

Bryan Bance (13:08)
someone pregnant later on if you masturbate too much. All of these myths have been shared for such a long time, but I’m very lucky that I discovered Jack and World at an early age and a lot of those myths were dispelled for me. And so yeah, that was really kind of the point of Jack and World and really set me on that path.

Trevor Hoppe (13:28)
That’s amazing. I love the idea that something as simple as masturbation, not simple, but not even innocuous. It’s just this kind of sexuality that we think is entry level. I don’t know. It’s like the first thing you do usually. It’s the first kind of sexual experience you have, most people. And yet it can be so disruptive still, promoting and normalizing masturbation can be so disruptive because of that stigma.

Bryan Bance (13:38)
Mmmmm, mmmm.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (13:54)
That is still there, isn’t that wild?

Bryan Bance (13:56)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it’s like I just read a book. I’m looking over at my bookshelf because it’s right here. It’s by an author, Dr. Eric Sprinkle, and it’s called DIY, the wonderfully weird history and science of masturbation. And he really kind of dives into the full history of, you know, obviously kind of the Victorian era, kind of conservative values that came in. But then also what was the…

Trevor Hoppe (14:16)
Hmm?

Bryan Bance (14:20)
wrong science at the time about, again, what masturbation could do. you know, it talks about Dr. Kellogg of cereal fame, who’s one of the proponents that wanted people to stop masturbating for various reasons. And so

Trevor Hoppe (14:28)
Yes!

Graham

crackers, same thing with graham crackers. People think it’s just a delicious snack. No, that was supposed to be like a bland food that was going to make young boys not want to touch themselves.

Bryan Bance (14:36)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mm-hmm,

mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And so yeah, it’s just, again, you know, the misinformation that has been spread around masturbation, and sex in general, but I specifically masturbation is one that’s been targeted so much. And I think that it’s unfortunate if people don’t undo that level of shame around it because, you know, to get what you were saying about like, masturbation is such like an entry level quote unquote thing about sexuality, but for me,

As I become a stronger or more associated with bating and really involved it in my sexual practice, I do think that it’s made me a better lover with other people. Like, there’s no doubt that there’s a connection between being in tune and in touch with my own body and being able to be, yeah, be a better lover with other people.

Trevor Hoppe (15:32)
Well, I was just going to say, is there a time you can think of that where you like were actively aware you were like, wow, I’m doing something here with my partner. And this is something that I learned from this practice.

Bryan Bance (15:42)
Yeah, I mean, think the first and foremost thing, and I remember learning about this on Jackin World, is the experience of edging. They described it as like, you know, a stop and go technique, but being able to be in control of your body and realize, you know, when am I getting close to orgasm, getting close to ejaculation and being able to ease off on it and kind of pull back for a moment so that you don’t go over the brink too soon. I think a lot of people when they’re having sex with other people,

that is a common concern that they have is how can I last longer? Especially if they’re being the one who’s penetrating or is getting ahead or whatever it may be. And so I can definitely link my sexual acts with other people and being able to last a lot longer because I did practice stop and go techniques from Jackin World. I did learn to edge. And so I know that when I’m with people, if I’m getting close,

I either need to kind of stop and pull back for a little bit, I can breathe, and then I can continue. And so, again, that’s one example of being able in tune with my own body through solo sex that has made me a better partner for people.

Trevor Hoppe (16:50)
Yeah, I appreciate that reframing of edging a little bit because when I first heard that term and came to awareness of it, it sounded like, I don’t know, like, wow, you have a lot of time on your hands that you’re spending all day doing this thing. And then I think you’re right that for a lot of people, there’s all this anxiety that a lot of men have about coming too fast. It’s just a reality of our physical anatomy that we…

Bryan Bance (17:11)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (17:15)
Unless we know how to control it, we don’t, are not able to. And so I appreciate that the edging can be, and maybe if it had a different word for it, I don’t know, for some reason, the edging has always rubbed me the wrong way. No, no, no pun intended, but, but yes, it can help you control your orgasm. Period.

Bryan Bance (17:22)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And at the end of the

day, also makes your orgasms that more intense. like, you some people love to do that as well as a sexual activity. It’s be edged by someone else and, you know, it just makes your orgasm that much more delicious.

Trevor Hoppe (17:49)
Yeah, definitely. And it takes a certain intuition to kind of understand someone else’s body in that way to be able to read where is that brink and how do you stop in time to not go over that point. Do have any tips for that?

Bryan Bance (17:55)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm

I mean, I think, you know, it’s a practice makes perfect thing, right? I think a lot of people were so trained to like, that sex, the end of sex is orgasm. And so I think first and foremost, you need to reframe that like, orgasm isn’t necessarily the end goal. And if you kind of pull yourself away from that framework, I think that opens you up to realize that like, the journey could be just as enjoyable, or if not more enjoyable than the end point.

I just think we’re also trained to think that we have to orgasm at the end of sex that it can get us in our heads of like, when we get there quicker, because if I don’t, like, is there something wrong or what have you? So just remove orgasm and ejaculation from being the end goal can really help people kind of get into that mindset. And here’s the thing, if you mess up and you accidentally come when you were trying to orgasm, guess what? You can do it again.

The next day, if you’re lucky enough, maybe you can do it in 15 minutes from then, but like, it’s not the end all be all if you mess up once and you have the freedom and your body will allow you to do it and practice it again very shortly afterwards.

Trevor Hoppe (19:11)
Amen to that. I remember I was walking in Puerto Vallarta with a friend who had been to a tantric workshop and he ran into the leader of this workshop who was this beautiful, of course, just this beautiful man. And he grabbed, they were having a conversation about what it meant and how to practice this thing and he grabbed my friend’s junk and he was like, keep your sexual energy in here. And his challenge was to not orgasm basically to hold it back. And

Bryan Bance (19:16)
Mmm. Hmm.

huh.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.

Trevor Hoppe (19:40)
I still think about that moment, even though I was not the one experiencing that interaction. It was profound in the sense that what would it mean to recenter male sexuality away from the orgasm? It’s a, it’s not an easy feat because every time we turn on television, when we see sex, it’s over when the man comes and that’s.

Bryan Bance (19:50)
Mm-hmm.

And it happens in 30 seconds on TV. Like, you know what I mean? Like, exactly. it’s, think that, you know, again, for female identifying people or people who don’t have penises, like, orgasm is not always the end result for them. And sometimes it’s not possible for them to achieve that with a partner. And so, you know, again, it could help people who are not only in male-male relationships to, again, remove orgasm as…

Trevor Hoppe (20:01)
It’s…

Bryan Bance (20:24)
the end goal and realize there’s a lot more pleasure to be found on that journey.

Trevor Hoppe (20:28)
I think women have understood this a lot longer because I think most women will tell you in heterosexual sex that just like it is not common to have a vaginal orgasm or maybe even possible for most or many women. And so the reality is if you want to have an orgasm, it’s not going to be that time when you’re having penetrative sex unless there’s clitoral stimulation or other things happening.

Bryan Bance (20:31)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Yep. Yep.

Trevor Hoppe (20:56)
I guess men are a little late to this party, but it’s nice to be reminded of the pleasure that can come from that for sure. Do you think there was, like in this world you’re in now where you’re obviously having other kinds of sex as well as bating, like what?

Bryan Bance (21:04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (21:19)
What is the difference between those two kinds of sexual interactions? Do you seek out casual sex that’s not with your husband, that’s not bating?

Bryan Bance (21:28)
Yeah, I I think that, you for me, we were talking about like the definition of a side, like I don’t personally identify as a side because I do enjoy and have and engage in penetrative sex. And, you know, specifically you’re mentioning, you know, my husband, like he’s not in that bating world and that is perfectly fine because him and I have plenty of great sex, penetrative sex and otherwise with each other.

I think for me, the distinction between seeking out the masturbatory experience versus the experience of penetrative sex is really kind of about different types of connections. I think that because there’s so many different subsets of bettors, there’s kind of a lot of different ways you connect with people. And some of it is about not connecting with them in the ways that you would expect in penetrative sex. And so when I think about if I’m jerking off with someone,

Sometimes it’s all about showing off for each other and there isn’t a lot of physical connection and physical stimulation between the two of us. It’s more about being in the room with someone, showing off for each other. Sometimes there’s pornography involved and you might just be watching that together. And so it opens up these different ways of being able to find connection even if it isn’t physical versus…

Obviously, if you’re having penetrative sex, that is very physical and you are touching someone and you are having a lot more kind of this physical proximity and closeness with one another. And so I think that’s one of the ways that might be different between penetrative and in bator sex. I think on top of it too, the goal of bator being kind of in a bait situation might be to really kind of savor that edging that we were talking about and really kind of

get each other to that kind of point of almost coming and then pulling back and really kind of playing with that for a very long time. You know, I think the reality is that penetrative sex is that while we may hear about people who want to get fucked for hours on end, like a lot of people are also very happy to like spend 20 to 30 minutes in that type of way and like then that’s all their body can handle. And so I do think that there’s a duration difference and

Mindset that might happen between know, bare sex and penetrative sex if that makes sense

Trevor Hoppe (23:48)
Yeah, definitely. What about gooning? Where does gooning fit into all this?

Bryan Bance (23:54)
Yeah, mean, so I feel like that in particular has gotten probably the most publicity as I’ve seen more more like think pieces and articles. And so like, I think first and foremost, like, gooning for those who may not be familiar with it is this idea of like, getting so kind of like deep into your masturbation that it becomes this almost like hypnotic sense of mind and state of mind.

Yeah, exactly. And so like, there’s a lot of people who kind of, you know, might associate with like, being like dumb on your penis. And like, you just get to this point where like, you become one with your with your your deck, basically, it’s kind of a mentality. And yes, it involves a lot of people getting as they kind of go into this mentality, like a lot of like tongue being out and drooling. And I think

Not everyone, think first and foremost, there’s like a subset within the bator community that identifies as Gooners and not everyone who’s a bator is a Gooner. I think that people who get into that kind of, identifies Gooners, I think that they are kind of really taking a lot of freedom too. Like we were talking about reclaiming of like this shame that might be associated with masturbating. I think Gooners are kind of taking that reclamation to.

an extreme point of like, I’m going to like be so into my masturbation that like I’m going to look as like, free and stupid as possible. You know what I mean? Like, there’s some people that almost associated with like, you’re kind of like your bait or clowns in some sort of way. it, I think an outsider looking in might look at it and say like, it feels

performative to some people and who’s to say, like maybe there are some people that are performing in that type of way, but I still think that even if they’re performing, they’re doing it in a way that’s like freeing and trying to say like, I don’t care if I look stupid and I’m masturbating, like I love it anyway. Like, so I think that there is a kind of a freedom that comes along with people that associate with that kind of gooner mentality.

Trevor Hoppe (26:00)
Yeah, I the impulse, I share that impulse a little bit to be like, is that real? What is real? You just have to step back. We are always performing. Even if we’re in our own rooms, we have our own little security watch who’s like, oh, you don’t wanna do that. You wanna look at the wrong things. You don’t wanna get turned on in the wrong way or experience pleasure in the wrong way. So I get that there is always a performative aspect to it.

Bryan Bance (26:06)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Hey, man. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (26:28)
It looks great. Like it look I envy it like I would love to be in such a state of Zen’d out bliss I guess what I’m curious about with with both bating and gooning is how masculinity kind of figures into all of it because it feels very

Bryan Bance (26:31)
Hmm?

Mm-hmm.

Mm. Mm,

Trevor Hoppe (26:48)
bro-y and I like

Bryan Bance (26:49)
mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (26:50)
part of that but also as a gay man who was historically aggrieved by bros I it feels challenging so but maybe that’s the point I don’t know

Bryan Bance (26:56)
Hmm.

Yeah, I mean, I’ve thought about this too. And like, yes, within the bator community, there’s a lot of, you know, language and vocabulary that comes along with it. And I think you the nail on the head, like, there is this like, usage, particularly of the word bro, right? Like, I, people within the community call each other like, yeah, it’s my bator bro, or hey, bro, let’s jerk off together. And it does seem, you know, very like masculine male centric. That being said,

part of it I think is that that’s, I guess the language is so important and that’s just kind of part of like being part of the community. But that being said, I have met some very, very fem presenting and feminine, know, bators in the community that kind of slip into that language because it’s just kind of part of what’s expected in some ways. And so I don’t know if I have the exact answer to it, but like, I do think that it might be kind of,

again, kind of reclaiming some of the shame of, you know, masturbation being a shameful activity and because it’s not having sex with a woman and being procreative, like, is it less of a man thing to do? Like, I’ve seen a lot of, you know, things on social media, like from these like alpha male type of guys that say like, men don’t masturbate, stop masturbating. If you need to come, you know, you come with a woman kind of situation. And so

I do think that there is this reclamation of like, no, like masturbation can be a masculine thing. and, and just because you’re not having sex with a woman for the purposes of procreating doesn’t make it any less of a valid form of sexual expression. I think the other interesting thing too, within the bator community is that I would venture to say that especially like jerk off parties.

There’s probably a higher penetration or percentage, if you will, of men who may not solely identify as gay. I think that Badoff parties create a community and create a space that might be safe for men who are maybe, you know, again, unsure of their sexuality.

or don’t want to or are not able to come out for various reasons. If you want to use the term DL, that’s okay. And there might be also men who are straight identifying. I’ve definitely encountered quite a few at jerk-off parties. And so I don’t know how that plays into the masculinity piece of it as well, but I think on the flip side of this being non-penetrative sex, I think that creates some freedom for men in particular to explore.

sexuality with other men without fear of it being quote unquote gay. And I just find that to be very interesting. And again, I don’t have like numbers or statistics of other sex parties, but I just, in my experience, I’ve encountered a lot more men who don’t identify as gay enjoying masturbation parties specifically. And so that’s like an interesting thing to throw in there as well of what bating can mean to people.

Trevor Hoppe (30:03)
Yeah, I mean, I guess it’s not like the way that straight men or gay men are gonna heal our wounds together, but there is something appealing about the idea of finding a safe, yet sexual space for straight and gay men to be in the same room together. That’s kind of mind-blowing.

Bryan Bance (30:14)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, it’s, you know, I think you hear, or at least I’ve heard of stories of like, you know, when we’re all exploring our sexuality as, you know, teenagers of like, you know, two dudes may have jerked off together and just kind of explored that as a, you know, something when they were 15, 16 years old, but a lot of time then shame comes along with that. And so I think that…

Again, jerk off party isn’t even like a website like BateWorld is a place where I do see both bisexual identifying men, but also straight identifying men enjoying sharing their masturbation with other men. And I just think that that is yet another kind of place that people can kind of explore and reclaim their sexuality that was once thought of as shameful. And I just don’t think I see that level of exploration of non-gay men in other, you know.

sexual communities as much as I see it in the bator world.

Trevor Hoppe (31:16)
I actually, I hear you 100 % and I think that resonates with things I’ve seen as well. And so it’s just fascinating to think about. I am all for, especially as someone who’s just lived life as a little queeny kind of young boy, my relationship to straight men is problematic. I have a long history of feeling.

Bryan Bance (31:30)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (31:37)
It’s very hard for me to open up and feel vulnerable with a straight man given all the things that have happened. And it’s not rational, right? It’s not specific to a specific person. It’s just this, it’s trauma, right? And I just, I, for a moment, I just want to love and celebrate the idea of having masturbation parties to bridge that divide. So if you out there listening, I think it would be great to have more of those opportunities. What?

Bryan Bance (31:47)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (32:03)
I’m also on kind of a mission to find the good things about masculinity because it’s been a tough subject. I think my whole life, this disidentification I have with masculine, I’m trying now in my forties to embrace. What does it mean to be a man? To be a man, right? Even just saying that feels like, because you know, you’re just trained that men are do so many bad things and they do, but what about masculinity do you celebrate?

Bryan Bance (32:10)
Mm. Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting. When I have the same sort of reaction when I think about straight men, I think about even my time in corporate America, which is highly patriarchal and the way that it’s structured. And I think about moments where I felt uncomfortable were definitely in places where men ruled, were the leaders in those types of spaces and feeling very uncomfortable in it.

I think maybe similar to you and probably a lot of other gay men, my lack of masculinity was always questioned at a very early age. I remember when I was five or six years old, I used to, and this is showing my age of generation, I used to play as, do you remember Carmen Sandiego? Yeah, I mean, retrospect, fabulous, right? I didn’t understand why, but like.

Trevor Hoppe (33:17)
yes, that red jacket and that hat, yes.

Bryan Bance (33:23)
I used to like pretend to be her and like that was kind of like my like role play when I was like that age. And so like, I feel like I do have a very, really kind of like fraught relationship with masculinity. And, you know, I think for me, it’s, I’ve been trying to actually figure out how to actually make, it’s less about kind of like embracing the masculinity side and how can I make sure that.

The feminine energy is also just as respected as masculinity. Like I actually have a tattoo on my arm that says, let boys be feminine. And I think for me, that’s not only like, yes, let them express themselves as feminine if that’s the way that they are. But I think it is about what we associate with feminine energy. And that is about, you know, caring for other people, being more emotional with one another.

And so I think that in general, if we as a society embraced femininity and all that encompasses, I think the world would be a much different and better place in my opinion.

Trevor Hoppe (34:25)
I agree, but I don’t think we’re going to get to the promised land unless we also reconfigure masculinity. that’s, I used to be in the same place where I thought, well, we just need to embrace femininity more. And I think we obviously do. There’s no question. But I also just think there’s this elephant in the room that we that’s, and that’s why I think straight men, I’m getting way off topic, but that’s why I straight men are, are leaving like democratic spaces and other things because there’s been this

Bryan Bance (34:31)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Trevor Hoppe (34:53)
And I hate to say it’s, don’t want to say that we’re man haters from like a feminist perspective or whatever, but like there is this kind of refusal to look at masculinity in a positive light that I think can be challenging. And that’s what I think I see in this bate — And I bring it up because I see it in this bating world a little bit that there is something going on that’s kind of bro-y kind of masculine in its tenor, but it doesn’t feel violent or

Bryan Bance (35:04)
Mmm.

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (35:21)
It doesn’t have those negative attributes. And maybe I just don’t see those attributes, but it just doesn’t feel that way to me. I don’t know. Do you see any of that toxic stuff creep in there?

Bryan Bance (35:23)
Hmm.

Thanks.

You know, I don’t. I think it does come down to the fact of, one, again, we’re kind of reclaiming lot of tropes that maybe have been hateful against us. I think a big thing of, you see a lot of bears do, is the flexing kind of thing. It’s a big kind of pose that we do. And again, I feel like that’s a bit of us reclaiming this idea of what it is expected to be a man. What a masculine, muscular man jerk off in a room with a bunch of other dudes.

Trevor Hoppe (35:46)
yeah.

Bryan Bance (35:59)
you maybe wouldn’t expect that of when you think of masculinity. Yes, you think of being a bro, but what do bros do? We’re gonna go out and get drunk and find a bunch of bitches. You know what I mean? So like, right? And sort of like flip that on its head and it’s like, no, I’m actually going to be really, if you think about it, jerking off with someone else, you’re putting yourself in a very vulnerable position as any type of sex with someone else is, but I think.

Trevor Hoppe (36:10)
some chicks, yeah!

Bryan Bance (36:25)
you know, masturbation specifically, you’re putting yourself, being very vulnerable with someone else. And so I think it is taking those tropes or those stereotypical things and pulling it into a sexual space like masturbation does that really, I think, is a way to make us more vulnerable. And so, yeah, I can’t really recall any moments where like,

I left a bait space in particular that was like, that felt like toxic masculinity. Yeah, despite all the bro talk and that type of thing, does feel very, it still feels very queer in many ways.

Trevor Hoppe (36:57)
Yeah.

Yeah, it’s got that kind of fraternity aspect to it and the like Greek way that it’s like.

Bryan Bance (37:10)
Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (37:10)
fraternal

orders or whatever, brotherhood, those words you mentioned earlier that can be quite positive. So I’m just here to reclaim some of that, not necessarily reclaim, but to reimagine masculinity in this positive way and to celebrate that and femininity, right? We have to do both and all the space in between. anyways, I appreciate you letting me go down that little rabbit hole, because it’s been my thing I’ve been thinking about a lot.

Bryan Bance (37:12)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Anytime.

Trevor Hoppe (37:39)
If someone out there wants to get into bating, what would you tell them to do?

Bryan Bance (37:45)
I would say first and foremost, the internet is your friend and I think that there’s a fantastic social media site that is centered around masturbation and that is BaitWorld. BaitWorld has been around, they’re celebrating 15 years this year and it is a place where you can create your own kind of social, it’s like a social media site, so you can create a profile, you can put pictures up.

You can find people who are located close to you. If you’re someone who doesn’t want to take that step of meeting with someone in person, can, you know, they have a very thriving video chat room. That’s a place where I might spend some frequent time myself as an exhibitionist. It’s definitely something that tickles my fancy, but I think that Baitworld, while I’ll admit the website interface could use maybe some modernization, let’s just say that.

It is still, I think, the go-to place where people who identify as bators or enjoy masturbation seek out. And a lot of people, you know, find friends and find their community through BaitWorld. You can also easily on BaitWorld find local jerk-off clubs. Lots of cities nowadays have cropped up with these types of parties. You know, obviously I mentioned New York.

There’s some thriving ones in places like, you know, Denver, Seattle, Chicago, San Francisco, interestingly enough, I think one of them is finally kind of resurging. There was a longstanding SFJex that closed down, I think, pre-pandemic and a different group is kind of picking up the mantle. But, you know, I know it can be super intimidating to go to any type of sex party, but again, in my experience as someone who’s been to both

bait-centered sex parties, well as more quote unquote traditional sex parties where penetration happens, you can kind of make it what you want and that you are, I’ve never felt pressured to do anything I didn’t want to at a bait party. And so I would encourage people to take that leap of faith and not to be afraid to go to a bait party because…

Every time that I go to New York Jax, I leave with a new connection. And that has grown to now become, you know, a group of people that I consider friends and that, yes, we jerk off together, but we also hang out, get lunch, do drinks and that type of thing. And it really has built up this community. And I think that for any sexual kink or fetish, is something that we all seek out as other people who can help validate and help us explore, explore it in a safe way.

Trevor Hoppe (40:21)
I’ll just ask one more question about that because I hear this from a lot of guys in many different ways, but a lot of guys have anxiety about size because there’s just so much, you know, in porn it’s a diskewed perspective on what the male anatomy looks like. What would you tell someone who is anxious about that?

Bryan Bance (40:25)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm. Mmm.

I have seen all different shapes and sizes of not just like dick size, but also just men in general. again, as someone who’s spent time in both types of spaces, I do find that the bait world, and I’d say that in general, not just baitworld.com, but the bating world is much more inclusive in terms of body types, in terms of age. Again, New York Jacks has been around for 45 years.

there are some men that have probably been going for all 45 years who still show up. And so I have really kind of seen the gamut of people at this party. And because it is kind of a choose your own adventure of like whether you’re going to like be heavily involved in touching other people or maybe you’re just gonna sit back and kind of jerk off on your own. I have never seen anyone be rejected because of the size of their dick, the size of their body.

or any of that type of thing. I do feel like it is a very inclusive community and space in general.

Trevor Hoppe (41:38)
Yeah, and I’ll just add one more thing to that, which I helped me be comfortable with my own body and the way it is, going to a Korean spa. I know that sounds wild, but a space where men are all naked and it’s not sexual to me. I don’t go there seeking sexual entertainment or enjoyment, but I do get to see all the ways that men’s bodies can look. And it made me just appreciate my own body so much more.

Bryan Bance (41:48)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Yeah, I love that. It makes me think of San Francisco, Kabuki, not at a Korean spot, it’s more Japanese, but Kabuki was a place where like, yeah, the idea of just, you know, social nudity and sexuality, you know, sex not having to be the end result of it, I think really does normalize just how different our bodies can be. And that’s a wonderful and beautiful thing.

Trevor Hoppe (42:07)
is.

Yes.

Yes.

It’s so validating and I know that word is overused, but it’s true. It really can assuage you of a lot of those fears and anxieties you have about your own body because it’s just a body. it’s, we are not models, most of us. And that’s not just not okay. It’s like good, like.

Bryan Bance (42:36)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (42:45)
we should celebrate those differences. Anyways, I’ll hop off my soapbox there, but I just, appreciate that bating those parties might be another opportunity to get comfortable with your own body, but it’s hard in America. Ugh.

Bryan Bance (42:45)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

my God. It’s so difficult

and like the prevalence of like social media and how we present our sexuality on social media again as someone who does that himself. Like I think for me, like I’m not a guy who has, you know, a built body by any means. I’ve never had a six pack. I don’t think I ever will. And I think for me, part of the reason why I enjoy

you know, showing off and having this online alt world that I live in is that I wanted to be able to like reclaim, again, I’m using this word a lot, but like reclaiming my own body and being comfortable with it and realizing that like, I don’t have to like hide it, even though it’s been so ingrained, especially in queer gay men that like, this is the archetype, how you have to look like, you have to be, you know, at one point it was smooth, slim, like, you know, that type of, you know.

Body type was what I grew up seeing as from a sexual perspective, XY Magazine, Queer as Folk, right? Like was so ingrained for a long time that to be able to like show off that I have a different body type than that is very validating and very, you know, sexy as well. And so it is difficult, but I think that once you get to a point where you feel comfortable, like at least for me, it’s like I will never kind of like.

go back to feeling ashamed about my body.

Trevor Hoppe (44:18)
Amen to that. And that is

a tough mountain to climb. So I applaud you for getting to that point because it’s really hard. And it’s not just for gay people. Growing up, I remember family members saying a lot of someone was shirtless on the beach or something who didn’t have a perfect life. It’s like, no one wants to see that. Just those little, we might call them microaggressions, but just those normative statements about what a body should look. And the funny thing is, that it’s not like those family members…

Bryan Bance (44:22)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (44:44)
They had the same, they looked the same. It’s like, and so you know they’re just projecting their own feelings about their own body, but it has this negative effect on everyone else. So I appreciate you celebrating what a body looks like, what a fabulous, lovely male body cannon does look like, because that’s brave in this world. And I don’t know, I’m applauding of that. So thank you.

Bryan Bance (44:45)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

know you’re saying like being shirtless to take me back to like, I was the kid that like left his shirt on the beach or the pool and that type situation. And so I think it’s wild that I at this point, feel comfortable with showing the entirety of my body, my whole naked body on online. I came to that realization last year that was like, wow, like you have come a long way. And yeah, I appreciate you saying that you’re proud of I’m proud of myself too, if I’m being honest.

Trevor Hoppe (45:35)
Good, you should be.

I was that same kid and like, I remember a couple, I’ve come a long way in recent years and I remember taking my shirt off with my family at the beach, right, like such a non-event event, but, and my little niece being like, why are you naked? And it was just a funny moment, cause you know, to her that was naked and I don’t know, that makes my heart break a little bit, but.

Bryan Bance (45:42)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Woo-woo.

Trevor Hoppe (45:58)
I’m glad to take it off and show and

celebrate what a body can look like. anyways, well, this brings us to our final segment, which I like to call Sordid Lives and Untold Tales or SLUT for short. What’s the sluttiest thing you ever did?

Bryan Bance (46:04)
Absolutely.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, as someone who has lived and explored sexuality for a long time, it was hard for me to narrow it down, but I’ll bring it to what we’ve been talking about and something kind of better focused. So in October of 2023, my birthday is in October, I had been going to New York Jacks for a while and had kind of built up a relationship.

both with people that went there, but also a few of the folks who organized the party. And so I decided in that year to celebrate my birthday at Jax. And so kind of in coordination with the organizers of the party, we promoted it online. People knew, you I was hoping that people would know that it was my birthday. And lo and behold, when we got to the party, which

was like a Sunday afternoon. was so heartwarming and also very sexy to have a bunch of men come up to me and be like, it’s your birthday? And come up to me and give me a little kiss or maybe a little tug on my penis type situation. And the hottest part is that at the end of the party, I ended up becoming the bukkake boy, if you will. And so to then have

You know, I honestly lost count of how many people it was, but to kind of be the center of attention to literally have all of these men like come all over me was one of the most kind of like hottest experiences. And I left there one, you know, sticky and messy, of course, but to also kind of like, yeah, my heart was warmed because I was like, it did feel like I was celebrating this part of me on my birthday and doing it in such a kind of a

public and communal way. And so yeah, I think that is one of kind of like the sluttiest kind of bator centric things that I’ve done. And I enjoyed it so much that I did it again this last year in October. So who knows, maybe it now will become this kind of annual, you know, birthday tradition where I get to celebrate it with a bunch of other, you know, Baders.

jerk off party. that’s the one that comes to mind for sure.

Trevor Hoppe (48:23)
I love that so much. That is a fabulous way to spend your birthday, if I do say so myself. Well, if people listening want to learn more about you or see this content that you are producing, where can they find you?

Bryan Bance (48:29)
Okay, I’m sorry.

Mm-hmm.

So I am on several different platforms. My at is xybkbry. So you can find me on Blue Sky. You can find me on Bate World. And you can also find me on Just For Fans. And yeah, that’s where you can find me.

Trevor Hoppe (48:54)
Fabulous. Well, thank you so much, Bryan. I appreciate your love for bating and sharing it with the world.

Bryan Bance (48:58)
Mm-hmm.

Of course. Thank you for having me.

Trevor Hoppe (49:02)
That’s our episode for today. Thank you as always so much for listening. And remember, if you’re not having your best sex, I’m here to help. My services as a sex coach can help you identify and overcome those obstacles that are standing between you and your best sex life. Find out more on my website, thebestgaysex.net. See you next time.

OVERVIEW:

Monogamy? In the gay community? I know, I know—it’s practically a four-letter word. But today, we’re talking about why monogamy is valid (and that’s on period). My guest, award-winning male drag entertainer Jersey O’Mari Lavish, grew up with two preacher parents who showed him what commitment could look like. But navigating love and sex as a gay man in a world that doesn’t always celebrate monogamy? That’s a different story. We get into it all—coming out in a religious household, learning the hard way (literally) about safe sex, and why some men treat monogamy like a curse word. Oh, and the time Jersey had a very risqué moment in a U-Haul. Let’s talk love, sex, and commitment—no shame, no judgment, just real talk.

TRANSCRIPT:

Trevor Hoppe (00:09)
Hey, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Trevor Hoppe. Today’s episode is about monogamy. Yeah, monogamy, I said it. I know, I know. In the gay community, monogamy can get a bad rap. And I understand why. We spend our entire lives as queer men being told that our way of having sex is wrong, deviant, even sinful.

So for many of us, it’s a perfectly natural reaction to basically give the middle finger to the straight community and say, you know what? I don’t want anything to do with the way that you say we should be doing this. Like, you think my sex is bad? Well, I think your sex is bad. I get it. It can be like that sometimes, but today’s guest reminds us that monogamy is valid and that’s on period. Jersey O’Maria Lavish is a multiple title award winning

male drag entertainer. Born to not one, but two preachers up in New Jersey, his parents moved him down south to Hope Mills, North Carolina when he was just a child. And it’s really his parents’ love for each other and commitment to each other that showed him how monogamy could work and what it would look like. Let’s listen in.

Trevor Hoppe (01:31)
Jersey Omari Lavish, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast.

Jersey (01:35)
Hey, hey, glad to be here.

Trevor Hoppe (01:38)
I have seen you around town many years here in Charlotte, North Carolina, but tell people a little bit. You’re a male entertainer and tell people a little bit about what that means.

Jersey (01:49)
So I’m a male entertainer, so just like what females do or drag queens do, but I just stay a male, know, dress up in costumes, makeup, travel to different cities and perform and things like that. And I’ve been doing that since 2017. So it’s definitely been a great hobby for me and I love it.

Trevor Hoppe (02:08)
Yeah, it’s kind of fabulous and it is this interesting combination of masculinity and some femininity. I don’t know. Is that a fair read?

Jersey (02:17)
think it more so depends on the person that you’re talking to because over the course of a few years now, I have experienced where when you tell a guy that you do drag, they may not understand it and they immediately just stop talking to you. And then even if you try to explain it to them, some initially at the beginning are okay with it and then they’re like, no, I don’t think I can handle that. So I just tell everybody upfront and then.

lets you make your own assessment from Nia.

Trevor Hoppe (02:46)
Yeah, definitely. So you present, just so people understand, because I think outside of the southern United States, I do not encounter this category of male entertainer very often. It’s, it’s not as you’re not a stripper. It’s it’s not that you’re not a drag queen. It’s this other category where you perform as a man. You’re like you’re not you’re there’s no wig. There’s no like drag makeup. It may be makeup, but it’s like masculine.

Jersey (03:05)
Yes.

Trevor Hoppe (03:13)
you know, well, I shouldn’t say, don’t know. How would you define that relationship to these traditionally feminine things like makeup and kind of performing and dress up?

Jersey (03:22)
See, if I could find a man like you who understands, that would be great. But just like you said, yes, not a stripper. Sex does sell, but you do it in a way to where you still keep it professional and things like that. Yes, drag makeup, but mainly I only wear makeup when I’m competing, never when I’m performing.

Trevor Hoppe (03:27)
you

Jersey (03:44)
And listen, it brings happiness to a lot of people. I make good money performing and things like that as a hobby. So, you know, it’s very entertaining and fun.

Trevor Hoppe (03:54)
No question about it. I have been thoroughly entertained, believe me. Cause it is, as you say, sex sells. So there is an element of sexuality to it, but there’s also an element of dance and performance. I don’t know. It’s, it’s really fabulous. So I, I’m, I’m just in awe of this category and I wish more people got to experience it around the country and around the world. Cause it’s really quite a fabulous genre. And you, you have won many titles. Is that right?

Jersey (03:55)
Okay.

Me too.

I

had love, I had…

Trevor Hoppe (04:23)
What was the most like crowning achievement for you so far?

Jersey (04:27)
I said for me, think the best, the biggest title that I’ve ever won is out of Atlanta, it’s called Peach State Being that it’s like top tier drag and you know, we always say to really understand drag and you know, to hone your skills, Florida and Atlanta will definitely teach you those things.

And when I won, I competed against, I think it was either like five or six guys. And so that was a big moment on my first try to get it. So I’m very proud of that.

Trevor Hoppe (04:59)
Wow.

And what is the peace state, right? What is that? Like, what is that? Peach state. I see now, of course, Georgia. Georgia peaches. Well, we love peaches. I love peaches around here for sure. Well, congratulations on all your success, but winding back to before all of that, tell us a little bit about where you grew up.

Jersey (05:06)
Peach State.

state, yeah.

Georgia Peaches, there you go.

So I’m originally from Jersey City, New Jersey.

Just me and my mother are from there. And then I think in my teen years, we moved down south and I lived in, lived and went to school, Hope Mills, North Carolina. So, southern about trade, guess, because I said that’s where majority of my life has been spent. So.

Trevor Hoppe (05:45)
And if people don’t know Hope Mills, Hope Mills is a pretty small town outside of Fayetteville. Shout out to my best friend who lives from Hope Mills too. Yeah. What was it like growing up gay or did you, is that a word you used then? Like what was it like to be different growing up then?

Jersey (05:53)
Hey, Justin.

So of course you do notice that down south and then northern way of living, especially when it comes to being gay is very different. For me, both of my parents are preachers. So I’m a “PK” So of course in my household, being gay was a sin. It was bad.

It was almost like no matter how well you was doing in school, you never been to jail, da da da da da. Just being gay just seemed like to be the end all be all. And for me, took me, it took a while for me to come out. I did it when I was 17. I remember the day where I was at. I think it was Christmas day.

Trevor Hoppe (06:53)
my gosh.

Jersey (06:54)
Christmas day and my phone kept ringing. I it was the guy that I was dating at the time. Of course, I’m still in high school. And my mom kept saying, my mother kept saying, who keep calling you? Who keeps calling you? I’m just like, don’t worry about it. Don’t worry about it. So I think I had just put my phone down somewhere and then she ended up picking the phone up. And she asked, she said, who is this? And why you keep calling my son?

And he was like, well, who are you? And he was like, I thought this was his phone. She said, that’s not what I asked you. And then, they went back and forth. She ended up hanging up on him. And then she asked me, is there anything you want to tell me? Right then and there, I just had got tied a line. And I was just like, I’m gagged.

gay, your son is gay. She cried and then my father told me he was like, well, you can’t live anymore if you’re going to be gay. I said, wow. So I packed up, up all my stuff and I called my neighbor that lives across the street at the time and I was like, my parents just found that I was gay. I need somewhere to stay. Can I stay with you? His parents was fine with it. They let me stay. I stayed there for one week.

My mom called me, she was like, you gotta come back home. So I went back.

Trevor Hoppe (08:12)
How was that reunion?

Jersey (08:13)
They didn’t talk to me for two weeks when I came back. It was two weeks they didn’t say one word to me.

And then I think after a period, my mother, she just learned to adapt. She got over it. And my father, even still to this day.

It’s like the worst thing in the world,

Trevor Hoppe (08:34)
Yeah.

Do you have a relationship with your father currently?

Jersey (08:36)
No, I haven’t spoken to that man in… since 20… my mother… let see, my mother passed in 2018. I haven’t spoken to that man since 2019.

Trevor Hoppe (08:51)
Wow. I’m so sorry, that’s hard.

Jersey (08:53)
And that’s my choice.

My sister tells me every now and then, he wants to have a relationship with you. He wants to, I guess, try to fix what he did wrong. I’m good on that. My piece is more important to me now. And at the time, he had all the chances in the world to make it right.

you didn’t so I choose not that relationship.

Trevor Hoppe (09:16)
Sometimes that can be the best way forward, but it’s really hard. can’t imagine not having that relationship. do you find parallels to family in, in like the gay community?

Jersey (09:29)
So I will say that I’m grateful for my drag father, for being, or my drag parents, for stepping in at the time that they did.

and being there when I need them. can go, because they live in Florida, so I can go visit them when I need to, you know, just get away or if I just need to talk to somebody about something. I have them there for that. And then I always think about also, even if I didn’t have them, it’s always people in place. I feel like my mother, when she passed, she put people in place for me to have on her behalf since she was there no more.

Trevor Hoppe (10:04)
Hmm, that’s… No, that’s love. I mean, that’s care and compassion and…

Jersey (10:05)
I know it’s probably like a weird way to think about it. That’s what I think.

Trevor Hoppe (10:11)
What, when you say drag father and drag parents, so some people probably aren’t familiar with that concept, like what does that mean? How did you meet these people? What do they, what did they do for you?

Jersey (10:22)
So I met, so his name is Amari Lavish and I met him.

I think I met him back in 2018 as well. It was just a go compete for a pageant that he was giving up. And at that time, you know, we had talked a lot and just became closer and things like that. And, you know, he just asked me, said, can I mentor you and, you know, be your drag father, whatever. And so at the time, sometimes you think like that all that has to do with is, you know, just the drag aspect.

But no, he understands.

because he has three kids of his own. But he also understands the aspect of there’s more to being a parent, being your drag parent than just drag. We understand you have real life, you have things going on. And he’s been doing this for so long. It’s like, he understands like, my kids need to talk to me, if you need this, this, that I can help you and guide you along. Because it’s almost like I’ve been there before, so.

let me help you not make the same mistakes that I made or what can we do to figure out a situation. So I’m always grateful and appreciative of.

Trevor Hoppe (11:25)
Yeah, that’s wonderful that he came to you offering that mentorship because I think sometimes we look for that, but it’s hard to ask for because, know, so that’s a really a gift that he offered that to you.

Jersey (11:37)
exactly.

Trevor Hoppe (11:38)
Yeah. And also it’s just kind of a wild coincidence to think that your mother passed the same year that this person entered your life. Have you thought about that?

Jersey (11:48)
You know what, that is so crazy. I’ve never thought about that aspect. Because when that like, I would say like that was the worst year of my entire life. And I’m 40. And the crazy part about it is my favorite aunt died like nine months before my mother did. So we had.

Trevor Hoppe (11:58)
Yeah.

my gosh.

Jersey (12:12)
eight or nine months, so we bury her, because she was my favorite aunt. And I’m like, and she helped raise me too. So she passed in January and then my mother passed in September. September. So yeah, that was just a terrible year for me.

Trevor Hoppe (12:27)
Well, I’m glad that you have your drag father to kind of help, you know, obviously can’t do all the things that a mother can, but at least can help parent a little bit. We all need parents, even if we’re 40, you know, it’s challenging out there. So you grew up in Jersey, you’re moving to Hope Mills and you’re dating this guy, and your mom finds out and you get…

Jersey (12:33)
All right.

Trevor Hoppe (12:52)
It’s less that you came out and more you kind of got outed. had the same experience. I relate to that. It’s like, everyone’s like, congratulations on coming out so early. And you’re like, well, it’s not really, it wasn’t volitional. It kind of just happened to me. Yeah. So I feel that in a big way, but what were those first relationships like when it comes to sex? Like how was that exploring that sexuality in those early years?

Jersey (12:56)
Yes.

Right.

Mmmmm

You know, not knowing what you’re doing and not knowing the importance of safe sex, especially back then and the risks and things that you could catch. Because at that age, you really just don’t care. It’s almost like you’re just a free spirit. You just do everything.

And then, because I’ve always learned that you don’t really care about something until it happens to you. So like you have friends who, you know, maybe dealing with this or going through all of this, but until it affects you, it seems, you know, really.

So I didn’t really want to be like that. So then I’m glad kind of at like an early age, I would say maybe 21, 22, understanding safe sex is not a bad thing. It’s not a bad thing. mean, of course it doesn’t feel as good, but back then it was important. So I’m grateful for that. I’ll say that.

Trevor Hoppe (14:11)
Yeah.

You

Yeah.

Yeah, we’re talking about like around 2005, 20 years ago or so where there was no PrEP. So you didn’t have the luxury of sort of feeling protected in that way. Did you experience a lot of pressure to not practice safe sex?

Jersey (14:41)
So I went to school, once I graduated high school, went to college in Atlanta.

And I don’t know for those that have been to Atlanta, it’s a big gay scene down there. listen, I don’t know nobody for the sexual practices that they do. Hey, I’ve done them. So it’s not a big, it was never big for safe sex down there. Bareback and unprotected sex is a huge thing.

Trevor Hoppe (14:52)
Mm-hmm.

Jersey (15:11)
I would say yes, I definitely got pressured a lot.

And I’ll just say, thank God that I didn’t catch anything. I’m grateful for that.

I appreciate life and I love life. So that’s it.

Trevor Hoppe (15:23)
Amen, amen. What strategies, like, because a lot of young people face this reality where they don’t know how to stand up for themselves and what they want. How are you navigating that? Do you have any strategies or tricks or mantras that you would tell yourself? Like, how did you stand up for what you needed and wanted?

Jersey (15:43)
I’ll just say I’m grateful for a no-nonsense mother that I had for instilling in both her kids.

the importance of standing up for yourself. Because our thing was always, she always had a saying like, mama can’t always be there to have you back. And she’s like, and you got to be able to know how to speak up for yourself and do things for yourself. And she had another big thing where she was like,

I’ll help my children, but I first gotta see, I gotta make sure that you’re wanting to help yourself. So I can’t help you if you’re not helping yourself, so.

Trevor Hoppe (16:15)
Wow.

Jersey (16:17)
So those things always still with me then, I take them with me every day now.

Trevor Hoppe (16:23)
That’s so sweet and real. It’s funny to think that a question like that would yield your mom’s advice, but it’s real. That carries through you to all aspects of your life.

Jersey (16:24)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (16:37)
Did you have any experiences in those early days where you look back and you think, my gosh, that was awful.

Jersey (16:44)
you

I wouldn’t say awful, I would say more so.

Yeah, I wouldn’t say awful. I look at everything as a learning aspect. was like, so thinking about some of the, you know, the guys I may have been interested in or dated or things that didn’t work out. And then later on you see and you’ll be like, okay, I see why now why that didn’t work out. Thank you for that. And so, yeah, I wouldn’t say bad. Everything’s a learning aspect. So I’m grateful for all the things that I went through. It hurt.

But it helped. I say that.

Trevor Hoppe (17:18)
Well, I love that reframing because that’s my whole thing is like a lot of us talk about bad sex and I think there’s no way to have good sex without first probably having some bad sex. Like it’s just kind of the name of the game and you learn something from those experiences. So what what lessons do you remember learning the hard way like that?

Jersey (17:38)
So I am grateful early on learning as far as pleasuring your partner. What I mean by that is sometimes you can notice that it’s one-sided. And…

You just don’t want it to be that. Because you’re like, if there’s certain things that I like. So my way of thinking is like, if there’s certain things that I like, I have to assume that you like the same things too. So what do we do? You either just ask. Because you can’t always assume. Because if you assume, that’s just disastrous in itself. But I mean, I have had some bad sexual experiences.

and

what it taught me was. like bad experiences meaning so younger, when I was younger, I used to enjoy eating ass. Used to be a great thing for me. Then I had two bad experiences in my life. Like it was really, really bad. Where both guys, I guess they just forgot to clean out real good.

Trevor Hoppe (18:31)
you

Yeah.

Jersey (18:49)
And then you, you know, you go in there. So the first guy, you know, put my tongue in there and.

Yeah, I was kind of sick after that. Then the second guy, when it happened again, which, and I just said stop for the longest time. So when he came over, he was like, he was like, I just got out of the shower. I said, okay, cool. So you’re just fresh out of the shower. Boom. And then, so when I bent him over to eat his ass or whatever, there was a bad smell in the air.

Trevor Hoppe (18:57)
Mm-hmm.

Jersey (19:22)
And so it was just immediately over for me at that point. And he was like, are you going to do it? What? No. I said, you can go home now. I said, yeah, this is not going to happen. And so after that, had been years and I had stopped. And then, you know, probably I would say about two, three years ago, I started doing it again, but I couldn’t understand.

you know, when, why guys would be so upset before then when they would ask like, could you just do it? And I would be like, no. And I would tell them why. And then they would be annoyed. I get it because I enjoy tongue in mind. It feels good. It feels amazing. So what I’ve been, what I should have been doing is I just said, you know what?

Trevor Hoppe (20:02)
Heh heh heh, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jersey (20:13)
I gotta see you coming out of the shower.

Trevor Hoppe (20:15)
Hahaha, yeah.

Jersey (20:17)
And that’s how we fix that issue.

and fix it.

Trevor Hoppe (20:18)
I feel you

on a deep way that I don’t, I guess part of it is that there’s no proper sex education and so people just don’t always know. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt that it’s, I don’t think people are intentionally going around trying to inflict that on people unless they’re into it and again, know, whatever, but I don’t think these people probably were into that. They just didn’t know and that’s really challenging. So.

Good for you for sticking up for yourself and not getting yourself into a situation that could have been like a health problem potentially. Yeah. Yeah. I feel that hygiene is a big one. I definitely hear that from people. we talked a little bit before the call and the recording that you today have mostly practiced monogamy.

Jersey (20:53)
I said twice? I was like, my God.

Trevor Hoppe (21:11)
What brought you to that?

Jersey (21:12)
So it was mainly, you know, watching my parents and my mother was big on that.

Like I told you before I said she…

was always instilling in us, cause I have a sister too. And she said, my sister, always want to find a man like your father in that aspect. The treat you well, know, those, these things, XYZ for you. So just seeing how their relationship was growing up, how he treated her and things like that, you get a sense of that’s how people should be treated. And then when I first got into my first long-term relationship,

He was the same way. Of course, you know, he initially lied about a couple of things in the beginning, but over the course of that year that me and him worked together, I understood.

slightly I guess what a relationship of that what a good relationship could look like and how a man should treat you so I’m forever grateful for that

Trevor Hoppe (22:07)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. What does monogamy mean to you?

Jersey (22:13)
Monogamy to me is one plus one. It’s just us. Sharing life experiences, being there for one another, communicating well. Because to me, the key factors in order to be with me, because I feel like people just jump into relationships just to say that they have one. And I think that is so corny to me. You have to be able to communicate.

You have to be able to… I like spontaneity.

love personality and yeah, and I do love consistency. So those things are big pluses in order to be with me. But yeah, monogamy is the only way for me. I’m a jealous person. I’m not ashamed to admit that. And like sharing somebody that I’m in love with, that’s just, that feels weird to me. I mean, I don’t knock other people that do it if, hey, if you like it, I love it. But for me, can’t do it.

So.

Trevor Hoppe (23:12)
What’s your experience like in the gay community when you tell people that you practice monogamy?

Jersey (23:17)
It’s like I said a bad word. Yeah. It’s like I’ve said a very bad word when I bring up monogamy. I’m noticing…

whenever I do say that.

Sometimes you get cursed out, which is weird. I don’t understand why, but you either get cursed out, they just immediately stop talking to you, or you have some people who…

Trevor Hoppe (23:30)
Wow.

Jersey (23:40)
How do I want to say this? You have some people who will put on a facade that they’re into monogamy until they get what they want. And once they get what they want, I’m good now. I don’t really know if that’s what I want to do. So.

That’s always a bummer, but

Trevor Hoppe (23:54)
Yeah,

it doesn’t sound good, yeah.

Jersey (23:58)
not but yeah I’ve learned to be a little I’ve learned to be more cautious and and you know ask more questions and just really pay attention to people’s lately or I’m cuz I’m definitely big on actions definitely speak louder than words cuz you could tell a person that you like them love them all day but if you’re not showing them that then words really mean nothing amen

Trevor Hoppe (24:21)
Amen.

What kinds of actions impress you when it comes to that?

Jersey (24:28)
So if you can hold a good conversation, that’s always a good plus. If you immediately start talking to me about sex, I’m turned off. Because I tell people all time, getting laid is the easiest thing in the world for anybody. Anybody can get laid. It’s not hard. But what else can you bring? So yeah, good conversation, quality time.

think is very important. Wanting to learn about somebody is a major thing. Because a lot of times people

are very selfish and they love to talk about themselves and I’m just like, whoa, when are you gonna ask things about me? Or, know, this just cannot all be about you. But I get it, I mean, I understand, don’t get it, but I understand that some people have just been in those type of situations to where that’s just how it’s been or that’s just how they’re programmed or that’s just me how they grew up. So, but I do think

There is also a lesson to be learned in teaching people how to treat you as well. And if somebody is willing to understand that and put the effort for, put forth the effort in that, then that’s definitely a person that I want to be with.

Trevor Hoppe (25:45)
Yeah, I think that’s a good point because sometimes we expect people to know how to treat us and and it’s not always like that, right? You have to provide not a guidebook but at least some like, I really love it when guys do this or I really love it when my partner does this to like set some expectations like hey it would be really great if you did those things. So I appreciate that it’s a it’s a little bit of a two-way street learning someone and what they like you have to kind of help people along.

in that journey. Do you think you’ve ever experienced that like truly like a relationship where you felt like it was that two-way street?

Jersey (26:21)
I was saying that in that first relationship, yes.

He was older. I was 22. He was 52 at the time. And when we initially got together, I just thought it was gonna be a hookup.

I was only 22 at the time. So I went over to his house one night and we started drinking.

and we would take his shots and I couldn’t hold my liquor for nothing in this world. And I got sick and threw up all over his floor or whatever.

Trevor Hoppe (26:49)
no.

Jersey (26:50)
first meet. I always think about it’s so many things that the man could have did to me because I was out of it. But all I what I do remember is waking up, I was in his bed, still fully clothed. And you know, he just took care of me. Didn’t try anything, none of that. And I think that is what you know,

Trevor Hoppe (26:52)
Hmm.

Jersey (27:13)
really caught my attention with him and

I to know more about him. I don’t know. This is always weird, but I just wanted to know more and I wanted to spend more time with him. Cause I just thought that was a big thing. And so we dated and we continued on. The age thing, cause at that time I didn’t really care, but the age thing was always an issue for him. Especially when we would go out in public and…

people would look at us and his friends thought that.

I was with him for money purposes, know, like sugar that something. I said, I worked two jobs the entire time that him and I were together. So I said, there’s no way in the world you think that that’s why I’m with him or with you. And even telling his friends that when, you know, we would have those conversations. But you know, it taught me, I’m always grateful for that relationship.

for teaching me.

I would say not to care what people think because you could find love anywhere. You don’t know who you’ll find love with. And it may be with a person you least likely expected to be with and that person to treat you like the best person in the world. But what I also have learned about myself is that I need to be, I think a little bit more patient with people, but sometimes it’s better, you know, sounds good. Sounds good.

but I get easily irritated like when I feel like I’m being played with or effort is just not being put in like how I think. Cause what I’m expecting, I’m expecting you to put the same effort into me as I’m putting into you. But I found out that life gets a lot easier when you stop holding people to the same expectations that you.

gets a lot easier.

Trevor Hoppe (29:05)
That’s brutal. mean, of course we have baseline needs and wants and we need people in our life to meet those. But it is true and I’ve had to give this as a tough battle for me, admittedly, especially with friendships where you feel like you put in all the effort and there’s no reciprocation. That can be really challenging in any relationship, whether it’s romantic or not. So I feel you that sometimes you have to let go of that.

demand that you put on people and let them give you what they can and accept them for that and if it’s not enough then it’s not enough but not try to force it I guess

Jersey (29:45)
did get to a point, I think it was about two years ago, where I said, I’m no longer forcing things, so if it’s forced, I don’t want it. Because if it’s not a natural thing, just walk away. Because if a person really wants to be with you, they’ll show you. And if they don’t want to be with you, I’m grateful for that because there’s a reason and a why behind

Trevor Hoppe (30:04)
Amen.

Exactly. Exactly. And it probably, might have something to do with you, but it probably doesn’t. And that’s the fricking rub of life is that, you know what, maybe they’re going through a depressive episode and they’re just not able to be there for you right now. And it’s just no matter what you do, or maybe they’re, you know, they had a sibling die. I mean, who knows what is going on in their life. But it’s not an.

Jersey (30:11)
It’s always a Y, bye.

Trevor Hoppe (30:36)
There’s not space for you in it right now and you just have to kind of accept that.

Jersey (30:41)
That’s why communication

is effective. But that was good advice that you gave also. I need to be more mindful of that too. People could be going through something, but if you just communicate that, then I know.

Trevor Hoppe (30:55)
Wouldn’t that be nice if men were able to communicate and say, I can’t right now for whatever reason, instead of just not texting you back or ghosting you or whatever it is that men tend to do. I feel that, believe me. it’s not, yeah. Yeah, it’s okay. And just let it be.

Jersey (31:09)
I’m like, it’s okay. It’s okay.

Trevor Hoppe (31:15)
and move on with your life because there’s more important things to deal with than someone’s inability to love you in the way that you need. And I say that I’m coming to that from a place of friendship when I talk about that. But I think, like I said, it’s just the same for romantic relationships in a similar way. When it comes to like, you’ve sort of figured out that you

Jersey (31:23)
for it.

Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (31:37)
you kind of thrive in this monogamous context. What does sex look like for you then? Or finding great sex? Like how do you go about doing that in a relationship?

Jersey (31:47)
So I will say, think that when you find a person that you really want to be with and y’all are in a relationship, sex is good. It seems a lot better than when you just hook up.

Trevor Hoppe (31:58)
Mmm.

Jersey (32:00)
because it’s more of a connection there and it’s more of wanting to do things for your partner, wanting to go above and beyond. What are all the things that I need to do to please you, to keep you around, to keep you happy? Because I’m definitely more of that person, I’m more so keeping you happy.

now not to say like, you know, I just forget about me altogether, but no, it’s more so about pleasing you and doing things for you and keeping you happy and things like that. So, you know, it all just stems from coming back from communication. If, especially like if things in the bedroom, specifically, if things in the bedroom aren’t good, what can I do to

get you there or please you better? Am I not sucking you right? Should I be doing this when I’m doing that? But if you don’t tell me and you just laying there laying and I’m thinking everything’s okay, I don’t know. Cause I’m very vocal, like if it’s not feeling good, let’s try this. Let’s try this, so.

Communication, that’s it.

Trevor Hoppe (33:06)
Communication

is the big one. It’s the hardest for some people to say That felt good or that didn’t feel good. It’s so basic, but it’s it’s real. It’s people struggle with that. So Communication is key. What can you think of a time where you think and you look back and you’re like? That was like the best sex I’ve ever had

Jersey (33:26)
But it was a hookup though.

Trevor Hoppe (33:28)
interesting.

Jersey (33:29)
Who’s the hookup though? So who’s this guy?

Trevor Hoppe (33:30)
What was special

about it?

Jersey (33:32)
He just knew, I mean, you didn’t even have to say anything. And I just was like, maybe he’s had a lot of sex probably. He’s had a lot of sex. But I said, he just knew what to do. I didn’t have to say anything. It’s just, he tried something and then I guess based on facial expressions and how, you know, my body.

Trevor Hoppe (33:41)
Mm-hmm.

Jersey (33:57)
reacting and things like that. And he was like, okay, he likes that. Let me keep doing that. And that’s good, because that’s some amazing sex to me. If I don’t have to say anything, and you just know what to do.

Trevor Hoppe (34:13)
intuitive people who can kind of sense… yeah.

Jersey (34:15)
Just

like you just caress the body right. You just, you lick right. You just know what you’re doing and that is, and you be like, God damn. If you should like, you don’t date? No, those, and usually those are the types that just like to have their fun.

Trevor Hoppe (34:34)
you ever see him again?

Jersey (34:35)
No. Because he lived out of town and I was out of town for like one of my gigs or something like that. But I will say like I was, I was top tier.

Trevor Hoppe (34:45)
That’s amazing and that’s so fascinating that like it is in the hookup context for you because it sounds like You know, that’s not usually where that happens. So maybe it’s part of the surprise That makes it so great

Jersey (34:58)
not gonna say, yes, I love monogamy. Monogamy is huge for me and I’m very much the relationship type. But you know, every now and then there are moments where your flesh gets weak and you just need it.

Trevor Hoppe (35:12)
Flesh gets weak. I get that. I understand. No, that’s real. I appreciate that because what you’re saying really is that monogamy is your format for relationships, but that doesn’t preclude having casual sex outside those relationships. It’s just the expectation when you’re in the relationship is that… Yes, it is limited in its capacity, that’s for sure.

Jersey (35:15)
Lash!

because your hand can only do so much.

It’s something

I need and I need and want that pleasure from somebody else. You know, we call it what? I call it a quick fix.

and it helped.

Trevor Hoppe (35:48)
Definitely. So coming to the end, we come to my favorite segment, which I called Sorted Lives and Untold Tales, or SLUT for short. What’s the sluttiest thing you ever did?

Jersey (35:56)
Okay.

Sluttiest thing I ever did, so it that I was dating.

I think his family was in town visiting. And I think we had just moved.

I don’t know, we had rented a U-Haul, we had the U-Haul for something. His family was over at the event and we was horny and we couldn’t do it in the house or whatever. So he took me outside in the back of the U-Haul and we had sex. While the door was slightly ajar.

Trevor Hoppe (36:28)
Ha

Jersey (36:29)
So to me, it’s probably, I’m sure people have done morgues. But for me, that’s the most, I think, sluttiest thing I’ve ever.

Trevor Hoppe (36:37)
I love it. I love that U-Haul for lesbians is like the sign of, you know, moving in together relationships and for you it’s the sight of this like wanton pleasure. That’s, that’s fabulous. I see. Yeah. The risk is real. People get really excited by that for sure.

Jersey (36:49)
risky.

It was turned on. It was hot. It was hot to me. Yes.

Trevor Hoppe (36:57)
Uh-huh, uh-huh, amen.

Well, Jersey, if people want to find out more about you, see you perform, learn about your gigs, where are you on social media? How can they find you?

Jersey (37:09)
So you can find me on Facebook at Jersey Omari Lavish. You can find me on Instagram, Jersey Flow, all one word. Or you can find me on Snapchat, Jersey Vibes, all one word with a Z at the end.

Trevor Hoppe (37:24)
Fabulous. I love it. Well, thank you so much for your time and sharing your story. I know people will find it really valuable.

Jersey (37:32)
Thank you, I have fun.

Trevor Hoppe (37:33)
That’s our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. am always grateful. And remember, if you’re not having your best sex, I can help. My services as a sex coach help you identify and overcome those barriers that are standing between you and your best sex life. You can find out more on my website, thebestgaysex.net. Till next time.