S01E04 – “Reputation” ft. Rodney McCoy

OVERVIEW:

Reputation. Whether you’re owning it like Taylor Swift or dodging it like Shawn Mendes, it seems like everyone has something to say about what others say about them. In this episode, I’m joined by the inimitable Rodney McCoy, who has spent decades in the queer scene building a name for himself—one satisfied partner at a time.

Rodney shares how a reputation isn’t just something that happens to you; it’s something you can wield. From leather competitions to unforgettable bukkake tales, he breaks down how the right kind of rep can unlock new connections, while teaching us how to navigate the fine line between being celebrated and misunderstood.

If you’ve ever wondered how to turn your bedroom skills into a legacy—or just want some tips on leaving a lasting impression—this one’s for you.

TRANSCRIPT:

Trevor Hoppe (00:09)
Hey, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Trevor Happy. Today’s episode is about reputation. You know, I think having a reputation has gotten a bad rap, and pop culture might be partly to blame. Riddle me this, what do Joan Jett, Taylor Swift, Kelly Clarkson, and still figuring it out Shawn Mendes all have in common?

they’ve all put out records about having a reputation. A bad reputation. But why is having a reputation always so sus? We talk about houses of ill repute, but what about houses of good repute? I mean, wasn’t it word of her legendary milkshakes that brought all the boys to Khalees’ yard? And like Khalees, today’s guest makes the case that having one satisfied partner

can lead to two more at your doorstep. Rodney McCoy has worked for over four decades to keep HIV prevention sexy. And that is no easy feat. Most of our libido’s shrivel when we hear the term HIV prevention. But through his Listen to Daddy podcast and as a multiple title holding leather man of color, Rodney has earned a reputation for using his kink platform for a good.

Let’s listen in.

Trevor Hoppe (01:35)
Rod McCoy, welcome to the Best Gay Sex podcast.

Rodney McCoy (01:39)
Thank you, thank you. It’s an honor, it’s a privilege. I’m glad to be here and thank you.

Trevor Hoppe (01:44)
I’m so excited to talk to you more, to learn more about what you think the best gay sex looks like. But before we get to all the good stuff, tell listeners a little bit about where you’re from and where you grew

Rodney McCoy (02:01)
Well, first of all, you know the song Native New Yorker by Odyssey? That would be me. I’m a Native New Yorker. am the Brooklyn to be exact. I’ve lived all over the great borough of Brooklyn. And I am also the oldest of five kids to, of course, the same parents.

Trevor Hoppe (02:05)
Of course.

Rodney McCoy (02:23)
I do have to say, and I have an ex who teases me about being from New York, because I’ve been living in the DC area now for 20 years, well, over 20 years. And he says, why do people from New York leave to New York to talk about how great it is?

It is it is and I just love going back there. Of course. I have another reason to be there being that my partner is there So that’s even more reason to go back and but no that’s where I’m from I think as people get to know me they’ll be like, yep He’s a New Yorker. So Yes, so native New Yorker here exactly

Trevor Hoppe (02:47)
Mm -hmm.

New Yorker born and bred. I love it. And what was it like growing up there as a young queer person? that was that, what part of your life journey did you start to think, I might be different from the other boys?

Rodney McCoy (03:12)
As a teenager, just starting to explore it, I don’t even say explore it, but just recognizing it, especially in a conservative Christian family, it was not easy. People would think, you’re in one of the gay meccas. Wow, you would think that, know, like sky’s the limit.

Trevor Hoppe (03:25)
Mm -hmm.

Rodney McCoy (03:35)
Not necessarily, not when you’re a teenager and not when you don’t know what’s out there. It actually took me leaving New York to go to school for those of you who know Oberlin College, that’s where I went. I call it, right, it’s in Ohio, a fairly prestigious liberal arts college. Also very progressive in terms of its politics, in terms of its environment, and that allowed me to come out. So when I came back,

Trevor Hoppe (03:46)
Nice.

Rodney McCoy (04:03)
about five years later back to New York. That’s when I started to discover, wow, all of this was here and I didn’t even know it. So I would say as a young adult, particularly in the 90s in Brooklyn, man, especially in downtown Brooklyn, Fort Greene, Clinton Hill, that was the place to be. for those who may be listening, who grew up or lived in Brooklyn in New York City around the 90s, y ‘all know what I’m talking about. I mean.

Trevor Hoppe (04:31)
Ha ha.

Rodney McCoy (04:32)
I mean, the nightlife, the people, it was just amazing. It was just exactly what I needed to really come into my

Trevor Hoppe (04:39)
I love that. And so did you start having sexual experiences while you read Oberlin or did that take coming back to New

Rodney McCoy (04:47)
I had a few in my freshman year and for some reason and looking back, I think I was just so intense as a person, intense in my studies, intense in mingling with folks, intense in the political arena in terms of the campus. I think I’m looking back, I may have turned some people off.

So it wasn’t until I got back to New York, you know, where people were like, here’s this, but you know, I’m, I’m in my twenties, early twenties, back in New York, fresh off the farm, as I called it, coming back from Ohio to New York and, know, and, you know, being slender, you know, much more skinnier than I am now. it’s getting, you know, small, skinny, you know, outgoing, like, hi, how, who are you? And, you know, I got a lot of notice.

Trevor Hoppe (05:23)
Ahaha

Ha ha ha, weren’t we all?

Rodney McCoy (05:40)
a lot of attention. So I really started exploring sex and having sex when I came back to New York in the 90s. And I was about to say, you know, like coming back to New York that I thought I was on, what you would call it, that I had come into my own. That actually came later.

I think in my 40s and 50s. That’s when I would say now is when I’ve really come into my own sexual. But I think I had a very good start, a very good foundation coming back to New York, coming back home.

Trevor Hoppe (06:14)
Were there any particular experiences that stick out to you at that time that you’re like, this is the thing that was like, wow, this is what sex can be

Rodney McCoy (06:23)
Jesus.

Trevor Hoppe (06:24)
Roll the tape.

Rodney McCoy (06:25)
There is, roll tape. I’ll never forget and I, okay, I’m gonna tell on myself. So I’ve always been, as an adult, I’ve always worked in HIV prevention. And there was one organization that I worked for where some of the things we had to do was go do outreach in some of the areas where we congregated, socially, sexually, all that good stuff.

And there was one particular encounter with a handsome young man, we were about the same age. And, you know, so I was doing my spiel about condoms. This was pre -prep. So talking about condoms, talking about getting tested, blah, blah, blah. And I could tell he was looking at me and that was not what he really wanted to hear. So I broke my, and he was gorgeous. He was so sexy. And I was, and so he let it be known.

When I was off the clock, he was like, I really appreciate you talking to me, but that’s not what I wanted to talk to you for. And so I was like, okay, how about this? Wait till I’m off the clock. And I don’t know what it was. I think it was his face. I think it was his body, even the way he smelled. But that was some good ass sex. That was some good, good, that was some good f***ing And most of the time I topped

Mount Morris Baths, and it’s so funny because this young man, I met him in Prospect Park in Brooklyn. I remember quite a few occasions in Mount Morris Baths in New York City in Harlem, which is no longer there, unfortunately, where there was an older gentleman, a professor at one of the local universities. my God, he was, oof. It was

I didn’t realize I had a daddy thing until I met him. And first of all, he was so handsome and in a very professorial kind of way that you would look at him and go daddy. And just his sexual energy was just very nurturing, very easy going. But when we would get horny, just everything would ramp up and would just and I also remember because and

Trevor Hoppe (08:30)
Mm -hmm.

Rodney McCoy (08:44)
Hopefully the FCC doesn’t mind me saying this, but I would f*** him. And I wasn’t too much into bottoming then, but I really just liked his energy so much that when he did me, it just felt amazing. I was like, whoa. And that’s, think, was the start to me being versatile. And most times I was topping. I didn’t really enjoy bottoming or flipping.

Trevor Hoppe (09:00)
Mm -hmm.

Mmm.

Rodney McCoy (09:13)
until my 40s. But there was one, you look at what you done did. Look at what you done started, because actually, and I’m going to New Orleans for a conference that’s going to happen. New Orleans was also a place where I had a wonderful sexual experience with a local down at and I don’t know what it is about me in bathhouses. I don’t know what it is. But he was tall, you know, like that tall

Trevor Hoppe (09:21)
Ha ha ha ha!

Rodney McCoy (09:43)
dark, handsome, muscular. Maybe a few years younger than me, was in my late, mid to late 30s. He was just a little bit younger. He tasted so good and I sucked him off. And it was just delicious, know, tasting it, feeling a splash on me. I was on my knees sucking him, you know, like right there. And so I thought that was

And so, you know, after we wiped up and we were talking and we were vibing, and so I was just, okay, and he’s cool. So I was fine with talking and he got this look on his face. And I was like, what? And he said, and I’ll never forget, he said, I want to know how it feels to be inside you. And I said, ooh. And at the time I was kind of like, and here’s the other thing, dude was huge. And I’m already.

Trevor Hoppe (10:32)
-huh.

Rodney McCoy (10:34)
not that experienced in bottoming, but I was like, well, God damn it, I’m gonna give this the old college try. And I have to tell you, that was one of the first times, and I remember being on my hands and knees, doggie, and he didn’t have his own room, but there was a space, there was one open space between the cubicles at Flex, Flex New Orleans, which is unfortunately no longer there.

But so we went into that space and he just slid in slowly. And I think because I was so turned on and I was comfortable with him, I just breathed, took a breath and just let him slide in slowly. And he just slowly stroked me, slowly stroked me. And I was just, and I just remember feeling so good. It was also the first time that came while getting

And that was memorable for me because that rare, even now that rarely happens.

Or let me put it this way. That was the first time I actually ejaculated. Now, I also discovered anal orgasms. That’s a whole nother story. But yeah. Okay, you’re like, we got time today. But yeah, those are some of my more memorable times from when I was living in New York. What happened in New York, what happened when I traveled outside of New York. But yeah, I would say the 90s.

Trevor Hoppe (11:46)
we’ll get there, don’t you worry.

We got time.

Rodney McCoy (12:05)
That was sexually, that, you know, now that I look back, it’s like, you did quite a bit, quite a bit. I also realized I had developed a bit of a reputation because I was out there, I was doing whatever I wanted to do, whoever I wanted to do for better and for worse. And I had the reputation, I learned decades later that I was a slut, Rod was just after that, which there was some truth to that, but no more than everyone else.

But everyone was like, he’s just all about the sex. He’s all about the nut. You can’t really get with Rod. And I learned that from an ex who was still a good friend of mine. People were actually saying to him, don’t date him. Don’t date Rod, because he’s just about the sex. And it’s just amazing to me how I was doing the same things everyone else was doing. And I should know because A, I was having sex with some of them, or B, I was having sex with guys they had sex with. So that’s how I knew.

Trevor Hoppe (12:35)
Mm -hmm.

Exactly.

Rodney McCoy (13:04)
So that’s how I knew, it’s like we’re all doing the same thing while y ‘all hating on me. Cause I was very open and vocal and like, what? I’m a grown man and so were you, what’s the problem? What is the problem?

Trevor Hoppe (13:15)
When you live out loud, know, people always have things to say, but the truth is that everybody else is on, well, now Grindr back then, obviously differently, but everyone indeed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rodney McCoy (13:25)
Scruff here, scruff, because I, I hate Grindr. I do not like Grindr. So, but that’s me personally.

Trevor Hoppe (13:34)
Definitely. Well, it sounds like you’ve had some pretty amazing early experiences. I wonder if there were some bad experiences along the way that might’ve taught you some lessons about what you’re into or not into or boundaries or lessons that you took away.

Rodney McCoy (13:52)
The answer is yes.

It’s funny because I talked about learning how to bottom and I do remember there was one and this happened I think for a lot of us. There was this because I mostly talked but there were guys who wanted to f*** me. guess they I guess I whatever I look like back there they were liking it. So I remember this this one guy in particular I mean very handsome very very masculine very muscular.

who really wanted to f* me and I was like at the time because I was more comfortable topping rather than bottoming it was like, okay, we can give it a try But I want to flip and he said, okay. Yeah, sure. You can do that. You know, we can you know, let me let me f* you first and then you can do me and He did me And it was it was okay But what what really got me was when and he came

And so was like, okay, it’s my turn. He’s like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Right. And that was very common. Games like that, well, at least among the circles that I ran in, that was very common. know, guys who said that, you’re like, who would say anything just to get the ass? So I heard of such tales until it happened to me. You know, guys who said they were top. And then when you got them, you like to wherever y ‘all were going.

Trevor Hoppe (15:01)
Really?

Rodney McCoy (15:22)
You know, you’re wondering why both your legs are

So I had heard that from too many of my friends. I was like, well, if that’s a problem, send them my way. Right. And I think, you know, like looking back, I wish he had just been honest. Cause that kind of messed with me a little bit. It’s like, you didn’t have to lie. You know, I could have either said, yeah, or I would have just said, no thanks. And you know, let’s just keep it pushing. The idea that someone would had to, you know, to lie just to get what you would want. That’s like not.

Trevor Hoppe (15:30)
Right?

Rodney McCoy (15:51)
I thought we were grown, we don’t have to do that. Another time that I also do remember was a buddy of mine had an ex that I wound up having sex with. And that was cold, and not cold, but that was bad for me for two reasons. When I had sex with my buddy’s ex, he said,

He got very cold. He was like, okay, we’re good. I’m good. You can see yourself to the door And I was like, I did and this was someone who I had known socially before we messed around and so I was like I never knew that side of you. Okay Okay And out of guilt I told my buddy what had happened. I didn’t I left out the cold part, but I said look I gotta tell you this is

he lit into my ass and not in a good way. And it’s so funny because then his ex, when he learned about it, he said, I wish I had told him not to tell him. Because apparently he heard about it too. And that’s when I, I’m not going to say I totally learned that lesson. That didn’t stick firmly into him much later in life. But it was my first glimpse

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should or be to. know, some men just need, there are so many of us out there, some of us just really need to be off limits. Especially if they’re connected to someone you know.

Trevor Hoppe (17:11)
yeah.

Yeah. And is that a rule for you now? Do you try to avoid people in your networks?

Rodney McCoy (17:25)
something.

I’m on.

Depends on who it is. Now in terms of work networks, do sometimes, depending on the person and depending on how we interact, for the most part, if we are working as colleagues, as a matter of fact, yes, work colleagues, even if they get me hot and I’m just like, yeah, I’m just like, no, I don’t sht where I eat. Not that sex is shtty unless you don’t clean out right. But.

But I’ve learned, you know, it’s just better to not mix work with that kind, with sexual pleasure. So that’s a hard, fast rule for me. If you are the ex of someone who I am close to, even if you’re the current of someone that I’m close to, either I’m just not gonna do it or there’s gonna be some conversation first. Because some people don’t mind, some people don’t care.

But that experience I told you about taught me some people do care. So at the very least have the conversation. That’s very important. And that’s what I would tell anyone. And if you’re afraid to have the conversation, then

Trevor Hoppe (18:39)
Yeah, exactly. And I think some people think it’s hard to even know what those emotions will be until you’re in the moment. And it can surprise you sometimes where you’re like, I thought that this would be cool. And now that I’m at it, I’m like, this is not cool. I totally, it’s a potentially volatile mix of emotions there. So I totally get that. What other kinds of, you know, rules or

Rodney McCoy (18:48)
Yes.

Trevor Hoppe (19:08)
or ways that you filter things that you’ve learned from having bad experiences that have helped you create some tactics for finding the good stuff and avoiding the bad stuff.

Rodney McCoy (19:22)
There are so many of us, seriously, in terms of guys, there are so many of us that if there is someone who’s not interested in me or someone who otherwise might be off limits to me, the first thing I had to learn was don’t stress it. Let it be and be okay with it. Be quite all right with it. There are so many more men.

Trevor Hoppe (19:42)
Amen.

Rodney McCoy (19:46)
that we can have fun with. The other thing is being okay with saying no and being told no.

Trevor Hoppe (19:55)
Yeah, it’s two -sided coin.

Rodney McCoy (19:57)
Exactly. And I’ve had to really, really embrace that because I’ve had to learn, you know what, I’m not everybody’s cup of tea. Not everybody is my cup of tea and I have a pretty big cup. You know, I have a very broad, you know, what I like and what I, as opposed to what I don’t like. Exactly. I have a Stanley Tumbler. Right. Sometimes it’s a Stanley cup.

Trevor Hoppe (20:14)
It’s one of those Stanley Tumblers, you know, just like this.

Mm -hmm

Rodney McCoy (20:24)
But the and the other side to that is even with that, there are still some, I’m just not feeling it. Or, and just like I can say no, I’ve had to look, the guys can tell me no too. Even if they don’t tell me no, but I just kind of get ghosted. Yes, that still happens in 2024. It’s like, okay, you gave me the message. I can take a hint. And even though would prefer people being honest, also, you know what, it’s okay. It’s okay, because.

I’ve had to learn while I’m busy stressing you or bumping my head over here, there’s someone over here. There may be more people over here who like, know, hello, what’s up? So that has really helped me in terms of really being more chill when it comes to just navigating this thing. Just navigating. Yeah, go ahead.

Trevor Hoppe (21:15)
And you mentioned the saying no thing and I’m just curious because this is a debate I have with myself basically all the time is do you actively say no or do you just not respond? Because I feel like those are both the same thing but people feel strongly. I feel about one direction or the other and I don’t know. What’s your feelings on the

Rodney McCoy (21:39)
I really do think if it’s an in -person interaction, I would definitely say, just saying, just saying. If you’re ambivalent, because sometimes there’s ambivalence.

If you’re a bifid, if you’re not sure, say so. If you’re just not feeling it, say so. I think the one area, and I struggle with this too, is we talked about the apps. I find that the apps are a space where that’s probably more acceptable if you reach out to someone and you don’t hear back, okay, they’re not interested, until they say otherwise.

that seems to be acceptable. So sometimes I’ve done that myself. I’ve been on not only doing it, being on the receiving end. I would say the apps probably are the only place where that’s somewhat acceptable. But in person, not just saying it, just just saying it. And that’s how I feel.

Trevor Hoppe (22:30)
Yeah, totally. Of course, I think the in -person thing makes sense. I’m such an internet baby that like, you know, the internet is such a locus of how I like think about having and finding sex. But yes, of course you can find it in person too.

Rodney McCoy (22:45)
And people forget that. As a matter of fact, I tend to do better when I meet people in person.

Trevor Hoppe (22:52)
Yeah. And why do you think that is? Because I think that’s true for myself as well and a lot of people. What do you think’s diff… You know, what works for you in person?

Rodney McCoy (23:03)
And let me say this, when I say in person, even this kind of face -to -face interaction to me is better because you get to vibe a person. You get to really get a sense of what their energy is. that looks are fine, but energy, if I look at a guy and I say, they look like they’d be a really good time.

That’s gonna get my attention, excuse me, much more than, or in addition to how they look. You know, because if you kind of look like you’re just gonna lay there regardless of your position or just kind of, or make it all about yourself, then it’s kind of like, or if there’s, just am not feeling this energy. No, no, no, you’re touching me. It’s like, as opposed to if you’re just being your natural charm itself and I’m just like, tell me more. Give me more.

Give me more. Yeah. And I think that’s it. You really can vibe off a person. And that says more than what any profile can say.

Trevor Hoppe (24:05)
Yeah, definitely. I have had many experiences where you think it’s gonna vibe based on online conversations, and then you get there you’re like, wow, your energy is just not a match for me. And I’m sure the opposite is true too, right guys? You’re not sure about, and then it just like clicks and they’re so charismatic.

Rodney McCoy (24:26)
Or they know what they’re doing and I and I have to say this so there’s a hot guy and that when I was in Fort Lauderdale and You know, we vibe we vibe it was just like off the chain and I’m that is that his husband excuse me, which at first I was kind of like physically I don’t But because they wanted to treat something they were married I was like why not?

but he knew how to use that dictum. I was like, whoa, okay. I might need to recalibrate some things here, because the math ain’t math -ing. I mean, in a way, I was glad the math didn’t math, because, I was fing the hubby. I was fing my friend, and then his friend was f***ing me. I was just kind

Trevor Hoppe (24:54)
Ha!

Dang.

Rodney McCoy (25:17)
This was me before I went. And I was, so sometimes you’re right. Sometimes you just don’t know. And, and again, talk about Fort Lauderdale, the same, the same event where I met this guy, there was another guy who I had met online and looks wise, I was kind of like, I’m not really feeling it. And I didn’t really give him that energy.

when I happened to be at this event where there was a f*** party. And there was this older gentleman who I kind of like, you know what, I’m liking his energy and we had so much fun. And then we looked at each other, was like, I know you, yeah, we were talking. And so at the time we were like, we need to do this again. And I was really into it. We did not hook up again, unfortunately, because that happens sometimes at events like

But that was a lesson for me. It’s like, you know, sometimes, yeah, there is a difference between what is online versus what’s in person.

Trevor Hoppe (26:25)
Amen. And do you have any tips for people to like, suss out the vibe online? Because I feel like that’s the biggest challenge.

Rodney McCoy (26:33)
I would say if a person is willing to talk, if they’re willing to chat, that is the first main thing for me because I’ve seen some guys put in their profile, I’m not here for the back and forth, I’m not here to make small talk and on the one hand, I get it, we know what we’re all here for, thank you for being very clear. But that also said to

you’re probably a pus bag. so, and yes, pus bag, exactly. So a little bit about that. So as a top, I love fing. I love aholes literally. So my current partner was like, well, I hate saying current partner, like they’ll be the next one. So my baby, my baby was like, but you like a*holes. And he had firsthand experience of my love for

So we were like, doesn’t make sense to say, to call someone an a**hole when it’s clear you like them. So that’s how we were like, well, so what would be a body part, something with a body that would just be like so disgusting. And that’s where we came up with the pus bag. So, right. So, and so even though I get it, you’re on here, you’re not about to chit chat, you’re like, let’s just get it done, but it still has a whiff of the pus bag about it. So if someone is willing to talk.

Trevor Hoppe (27:41)
repulsive.

I like that.

Rodney McCoy (28:00)
by, you know, answer questions and also talk, you know, like find out about what they like and what you like. I think that’s a good start. You know, it’s like, yeah, that might be. And if there’s consistency, you know, I think those, that’s a good way to start.

Trevor Hoppe (28:17)
Definitely a good way to start and it’s hard to get a handle on some time and I struggle with it as well because sometimes you’re just, you’re looking and someone’s interested but they’re just not giving you what you need to get there and it can be sometimes hard to sort of set that boundary for yourself. like, whatever’s on the other side of this door, you know, just not willing to kind of risk it given their inability to communicate. So I feel that. Communication, I guess.

Rodney McCoy (28:42)
right and and and just like guys who say i don’t want to communicate they’ll put that in their profile those of us might be like let’s communicate let’s buy we can put that in our

Trevor Hoppe (28:57)
I like that. So not just being negative about it, being positive, being like, this is what I want. I, you know what? I’m going to put that in my profile like now, because I think you sometimes have to put out what you want to receive in the world. And that is one good. So that is a tip I really appreciate to put it out there. So thank you for that. Before we segue to the good stuff, I just want to stop one more little train station. I’m curious.

Rodney McCoy (29:13)
you’re welcome.

sure.

Trevor Hoppe (29:27)
After you’ve had a bad encounter with someone, are you ever willing to go back for seconds?

Rodney McCoy (29:34)
It depends. And I’m going to say it depends what the bad experience is. If the bad experience is a person didn’t maybe wasn’t as fresh, wasn’t as clean, didn’t clean as well as they thought. Yes. If everything else was otherwise good.

I would go back and be like, hey, you weren’t as fresh doing me. And I’ve also had to learn, and this is where bottoming for me helped too, because I was one of those plus bag tops. Ooh, you painted on me. Ooh, you weren’t quite as fresh. Ooh, I’m never going to have sex with you again. ooh, girl, let me tell you what happened with so and so and so and so. I was that top. I was

It was only when I started bottoming that I realized, you know what Rod, you’re a pus back against the top. You need to chill. So, right, exactly. And I don’t mind telling all myself even. So, know, so things like that, I’ve learned showing some grace around, you know, if a guy’s not too clean, you know, either give him a chance to clean up or maybe not today.

But let’s try again another time, especially if everything else is going well. There have been some situations either because we’re just not compatible, the energy is not there, it feels like I’m doing all this work or I’m not getting, like for example, guys who, for me, I like noise. If a guy is just so quiet or there’s no gesture, just kind of like,

And I believe when they say I’m enjoying myself and I’m just like, but I’m not

a guy who doesn’t know how to listen to me. In fact, I did have to tell this guy. No, because bottoming especially, it’s like I’m trusting you. So if I say slow down and you don’t slow down, you know, and right now I’m not even talking about consent violation, borderline sexual assault. I’m talking about you don’t know how to listen to me and I’m trusting you with my body. So apparently no.

And I had to tell someone because he enjoyed it. I said, no, you know, you’re about you. You don’t know how to listen to me. So, no, it wasn’t fun for me. So, yes, to answer your question, I’ve had some experiences where I did not and would not after if it was like that, if it was just incompatibility or you’re not listening to me or care about me.

Trevor Hoppe (32:01)
Yeah, I think those are the moments where, you know, we learn a little bit of humanity sometimes in the way we treat people and also just learn a little bit about what we need and deserve.

Rodney McCoy (32:14)
How about that? And I think a lot of us, and particularly as gay and bisexual men, how we come into our own is so much shrouded in shame and punishment and belittling. So we almost feel like we have to be secretive. And yet the thing about sex that makes it work is when you can talk about what your desires are. But at the same time,

Trevor Hoppe (32:15)
Yeah, deserve. We deserve things.

Rodney McCoy (32:40)
We’re taught to hide our desires and just our desires to get sexual with other men. And that’s not even talking about cake. That’s not even talking about different forms of relationships. You know, just the idea of me desiring someone of the same sex or both sexes or all sexes, you know, that I’m not hetero, you know, that. And I think that sometimes feeds into that sense of shame, that sense of I can’t really let anyone know what I’m about.

can probably lend itself to some of the bad experience.

Trevor Hoppe (33:13)
Thinking back on all the sex you’ve had in your life, you don’t have to think about a specific experience maybe, but if one comes to mind, but like what do you think looking back counts as like best sex, either a specific experience or context or like what gets you there?

Rodney McCoy (33:31)
Hmm, that’s sense. Well off the top of my head noise. Noice. Topping or bottoming or flipping or borrow or whatever. I need noise. Because noise says to me, A, whatever I’m doing you’re enjoying it and I love that.

Trevor Hoppe (33:49)
Mm -hmm.

Rodney McCoy (33:50)
It also shows yeah, I love that it also shows that you know, you’re uninhibited You’re really in the moment that encourages me to be in the moment with you. I love noise I love those sex noises definitely That to me is best sex best sex is When I can say what I want you to do and you can tell me what you like me to do for example

If I can say, watch the teeth, careful of the teeth, and you’re like, ooh, sorry, and then you just adjust accordingly, that is good sense. Not getting offended or embarrassed. No, it’s just like, the thing is is that I’m learning you, you’re learning me. We have to communicate what we like. If I can communicate what I like, if you feel comfortable communicating to me what you want.

Trevor Hoppe (34:28)
Mm -hmm.

Rodney McCoy (34:42)
In fact, I do kind of like it. was talking with a friend of mine who’s straight, who’s hetero, and we were listening to some songs where these women who are rappers or singers are really assertive in terms of what they want their partner to do. And he’s getting into it. And I was just like, do you like it when a woman tells you what she wants? And he just looked back and said, yeah.

And I realize I’m the same way when it comes to, and I’ve had my own experiences with women and I like an assertive woman too, but it’s really guys and guys who own what they like, whether it’s being dicked down, whether it’s, you know, me coming on their face, you know, whether, and if you love me eating ass, we are golden. That’s one of the things that definitely I

eating ass as the act in and of itself as the prelude to what’s next and a guy who loves me eating his ass. mmm. And God help me if you like eating ass too, because I don’t get enough of that. I live in DC. It truly is bottom city. And so, you know, so on the one hand, it’s great because I get to eat ass, but then it’s like, but this verse top loves his ass eating too. So someone who loves doing that, I’m just like, aw, come on.

Trevor Hoppe (35:39)
That does

Rodney McCoy (35:58)
So I mean, I hope this kind of answers your question in terms of what to me is good sex.

Trevor Hoppe (36:03)
Yeah, the noise is key. And like when you say noise, I’m assuming we’re talking about a broad spectrum of things. Is there a thing that like, I don’t know, what do you feel like it does for you, the noise?

Rodney McCoy (36:17)
The noise lets me know you’re enjoying yourself. It lets me know that you’re present. It lets me know, particularly if I’m topping, that what I’m doing to you is really turning you on. And that strokes my ego. I think tops miss the point when they make it all about their nut. It’s like, no, dude, you need to make sure your partners are satisfied for two reasons. One, they’ll come back.

Trevor Hoppe (36:30)
Mmm.

Rodney McCoy (36:46)
they’ll come back. Number two, they’ll tell their friends.

Trevor Hoppe (36:50)
I love

Rodney McCoy (36:52)
And they’ll tell their friends. what that means is it does that sometimes it does mean that you’ll get some friends who will want to get with you too. And that’s an ego stroke. or sexual experience in the making. But it’s also a way and I’ll admit to build a reputation. You know, if we let’s be honest, you know, I think as men in particular. We like having a good reputation on anything we do.

He’s great to hang out with, he’s great to talk to, he’s a really good listener. he’s a great worker. He’s a great f**k.

So my whole thing is, whether I get with your friends who are not with your, you know, with your permission, going back to what we talked about earlier, the fact that guys have something good to say. In fact, there’s this dude I wanted to get with for years, who at one time looked at me and said, I’ve heard about you. And what did you hear? And he just smiled and walked away. I was like, okay. All right. Yeah.

So it’s a win -win for tops to focus on their bottom partners. It really is. It’s not about what they do for us. It’s what we do for them. And so noise is like, it says to me, noise is like, you’re a grown ass man. You’re a grown ass man. You’re comfortable in your sexuality, which is a turn off for me.

And it’s like, you’re not afraid to express when something feels good. And especially if something I’m doing to for or with you makes you feel that good. God, it’s such the huge turn on. Yeah. Noise. Noise and kissing. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (38:28)
I love that. Do you find, this isn’t a side, but in my experience, Americans are very noisy and then when I go abroad, people are less so if you had that experience at

Rodney McCoy (38:42)
I have not had as much experience as abroad when it comes to sex. And the guys who are foreign born who come here almost feel like they’ve got the space now to make boys. yeah, so I really can’t comment again because of my relative lack of experience with sex abroad.

Trevor Hoppe (39:05)
No, that’s, totally get it. just one of those things that I hear from like my French, one of my friends is French is like, gosh, you Americans are so loud in bed. And, and he was like, French people are not loud at all. And, it fascinates me because I like the noise too. So I think of it as a good thing and a form of communication. But my, French friend was like very put off by it. It was like, you’re too noisy, but I love the noise. So I’m here for it. So.

Is it important for you whether you’re partner orgasms? Thinking of like best sex, like how does orgasm factor

Rodney McCoy (39:40)
The truth is yes, it is important to me. Whether it’s ejaculation or an assgasm or both. I like and I’ve always been the top who really gets off on pleasing his partner. That does more for me than getting my own nut. So when you’re coming, when you’re orgasming, when you’re assgasming, when you’re shooting, that makes my dick harder.

Trevor Hoppe (39:48)
Mm -hmm.

Rodney McCoy (40:08)
that gets me physically hotter. That just puts a smile to my face. That’s just like, yeah. You know, even to the point where if I’m having sex and I’m kind of ambivalent about coming, I’ll be like, no, I’m good. I’m good. trust. I’m good.

Trevor Hoppe (40:23)
Yeah, so for you, actually, it’s more important that they come than you yourself.

Rodney McCoy (40:30)
Because I can always take care of myself. For better and for worse I can. No, I’m gonna put a better on that I can always take care of myself if I have to You know if he wants to see me come, know, and I’m feeling if I’m not feeling it I’ll be like I’m not feeling but if I’m feeling it I’ll be like, okay Give me a few minutes if he comes first. So it’s like I can always take care of myself, but I love the idea of

Trevor Hoppe (40:30)
Interesting.

Rodney McCoy (40:53)
him really enjoying himself because again I like pleasing my partners and honestly it does kind of build a good reputation, “Oh, he’s a good top!”

Trevor Hoppe (41:02)
I love the reputation idea. I had not considered that, but of course it makes sense when you think about it that word travels.

Rodney McCoy (41:04)
Yeah!

Yeah, I mean, we’re sitting here talking about sex publicly. You know, imagine if you and I, if it wasn’t an interview, but it was just Trevor and Rod talking, you know, and there might be some names that we might privately even say some names. let me tell you about this dude. Because, oof, you know, and that’s just how and that’s just how we do. So for those of us who think I can treat my partners topping or bottoming any old kind of way.

And that’s why when people will be like, well, I understand why I can’t get with such and such and such and such or or people don’t seem to gravitate toward me. I don’t understand why. You know, where’s my imaginary cup of tea like?

I’ve heard about you.

You might want to rethink that, that thing that you do and that thing you don’t do. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (42:00)
My mouth, my lips are sealed. sure I don’t know anyone like that.

Rodney McCoy (42:05)
You know and and and if it’s just me I will own that my experience has been and I’ve been on both sides of that so

Trevor Hoppe (42:15)
I’m sure we all, I think I say this to my friends all the time as I’m showing my friend a Grindr profile, I’m like, my God, how many people have shown other people my Grindr profile and said X, and Z about, right? Like, of course they have.

Rodney McCoy (42:27)
And I never even thought about that, because I was just thinking in terms of live conversation with your boy or with your best girl or with your good Judy. But I didn’t even think about the profile. It’s like, my partner and I did something like that similar just recently. And it was so funny, because I was just on, like, we’re grins and giggles, because I do that sometimes when I travel. It’s like, who’s going to pop up? Who’s around?

Trevor Hoppe (42:41)
Yeah.

Exactly!

Rodney McCoy (42:54)
And he happened to be with me. I was like, look, baby, look. Look who all is here. And he recognized one or two people. So I was like, yes, it truly is. Truly is.

Trevor Hoppe (43:02)
It’s a small gay world sometimes.

Thinking about that best sex, if you had the power, if you had that like Thanos glove and could snap and just turn fantasy into reality and make like that fantasy come to life, like what would that best sex fantasy look like to you?

Rodney McCoy (43:22)
I’m trying to think well first of all I have I have fantasy of and I might as well put it up put it out there here I have a fantasy of having sex with identical twins that has always been a fantasy of mine that I have always wanted to have so definitely a hot pair of and we’re men of a certain age so if I say a hot pair of double mint twins

Trevor Hoppe (43:47)
-huh.

Rodney McCoy (43:48)
so yeah, something like that. ooh, what else? What else?

Alright, so I have a birthday coming

I have always wanted to have a birthday orgy where, yeah, where I f* all the bottoms, all the tops of the verse, f* me, then it’s a free for all, and then when everyone decides they wanna come, it’s one big bukkake scene on yours truly.

Trevor Hoppe (44:18)
Fabulous, that sounds attainable.

Rodney McCoy (44:21)
I’ll probably wait a year or two because I was with someone last year Where I was like help me put this together. I was dating someone so I was like, you know, you’re a freak I’m a freak help me put this together. It never happened It never happened. So it did not happen. So But yeah, I I do want a birthday orgy at some point I really do

Trevor Hoppe (44:36)
Yeah? Aww.

Rodney McCoy (44:47)
I probably, if I think of something else, and of course different celebrities and things like that, I’m just like, God, there are too many to name. There really are. Idris Elba is at the top of the list.

Trevor Hoppe (44:55)
Who does it for you?

my gosh, yeah, he could.

Rodney McCoy (45:07)
So could Henry Cavill.

Trevor Hoppe (45:10)
that’s a big man.

Rodney McCoy (45:12)
I like to climb trees. yes. Let me see. Who else? else? You know what? For some reason, you know what? It’s the, I think it’s the Deadpool thing, but Ryan Reynolds has a body on him and he’s so snarky. It’s like you’re so snarky with that mouth. What else do that mouth do?

Trevor Hoppe (45:13)
Ha ha ha ha!

Rodney McCoy (45:33)
So Ryan Reynolds, God, who else? I just took one of these like online Facebook quizzes where, so I’m gonna have to think about that. Certain celebrities, know, sports figures, like pretty much damn near a lot of the guys at the Olympics this year. my God, my God. The pole vaulter. the,

Trevor Hoppe (45:52)
yeah. The pole vaulter.

Rodney McCoy (46:00)
The Turkish guy with the gun who just looked like he just walked off off the street. Just decided to shoot a few things and got a silver medal, but he’s hot though. Noah Lyles, Noah Lyles kind of like, okay, I see you. I know what we can do with some of those medals. Who all else? Marcell Jacobs from Italy. You have Marcel, one L, Jacob. yes.

Trevor Hoppe (46:06)
The shooter.

Ugh. Mm -hmm.

I’ll have to check them out. Yeah, they are pretty at the Olympics for sure. you’re pretty.

Rodney McCoy (46:31)
my God, my God. I would be like Janet Jackson, one of her earlier hits, No Sleep. No Sleep. wait a minute, and Frederick Richard and Stephen the pommel horse guy. Those two, those two. Woof, woof. mm -hmm, yeah. I’m a bit of a freak, so.

Trevor Hoppe (46:46)
so cute. So

I love that you focus, you have very like focused ideas of like hot, it’s like attached to bodies in a particular, sometimes I ask this question and it’s so abstract, but you’re like, you know, you know what you want. And I love that. That’s very.

Rodney McCoy (47:12)
I like what I like and there’s a and for me what I also appreciate is that for me there’s this wide range of what I like, of what turns me on. It’s a combination of yeah, the Stanley Cup, you know. So it’s like you have a pretty good chance with me. Pretty good chance if you’ve got a handsome face and a decent, nice or tight, hot, whatever tight and hot is, yeah. And you’ve got a personality to match.

Trevor Hoppe (47:21)
the Stanley Cup.

Rodney McCoy (47:41)
and freak energy, freak energy, whatever that freak energy is, whether it’s obvious or, you know, like where it’s just, you you step into a room and your freak flag is like up. The sexy nerdy thing gets me too. In fact, the pommel horse guy embodies with his body, embodies sexy nerd. It’s like, yeah, mm -hmm. He’s got a girlfriend.

But if he ever, and if he does play for the other team, he’s gonna have me

Trevor Hoppe (48:11)
what is, this is a term that people throw around, but I don’t think anyone ever really defines. Like, what does freak mean to you?

Rodney McCoy (48:20)
There’s a key syllable and that is free. And when I think of freak, a person who is free with their desires, yeah, a person who is free with their desires. They can name it, they can claim it, they have no problem expressing it, they have no shame about it. Yeah, I don’t do the walk of shame, I do the stride of pride. And that to me is right, right.

I what am I ashamed for? I got a recommendation. What am I ashamed for? You know, there were two or three nuts between us. What am I ashamed for? We made noise. And that’s what a freak is. He, she, they are so free in terms of who they are sexually. That shame has no place in it. And they’re willing to do and explore and be whoever they are sexually.

That to me is a

Trevor Hoppe (49:16)
Emphasis on the free and freak. think that’s fabulous and helps me because it’s something that I, maybe I’m gonna add that to my profile too. I got a lot of things to add to my profile after this conversation.

Rodney McCoy (49:28)
You’re welcome. You’re welcome.

Trevor Hoppe (49:31)
What kind of skills do you think it takes to have the best sex?

Rodney McCoy (49:34)
Wow Communication That’s I would say that would be the number one, you know, there are I think many things up in here that we like and that we’d like to do But it needs to be able to come here to be able to say this is what I want to do. That’s the number one skill

I would say that’s the number one skill, communication. This is the other thing too. When we say, you you should know, you should know, you know, even for those of us who are sexually active and have been for a while, if we don’t satisfy our partner, the whole either in the moment or in general, then it’s like, well, you should know this, you should know this. And I’m like, dude, this is the first time I’m having sex with you. I don’t know you, not really.

Yeah, and to me, such statements like that are like, don’t project onto the other person the work they’re not doing because you didn’t do the work yourself of really knowing what you like, how you like it, and more importantly, to effectively say, this is what I want. That’s why if guys say, you know, to me doing sex not so hard or harder, whatever that is, to me, that’s perfect because it’s like, okay, now I know what to do. If it’s like,

Not there, but here. Again, I need to know that. Or you missed a spot. Again, I need to know that. know, some guys are extremely hardwired in their nipples. Some are not. You know, some guys, exactly. Some guys love to have their asses eaten. Some can take it or leave it. Again, that’s the one thing where I’ll say that’s because you haven’t had it done right. That’s the only thing.

Trevor Hoppe (51:00)
Amen. Some don’t like it at all.

Ha ha ha

Rodney McCoy (51:15)
Some guys like to have their dick sucked. Some of us do not or some of us are ambivalent You know some of us some of us don’t like teeth. Some of us don’t mind a little sweeping I Found that out not too long. I was like, okay I’d rather have dentures that I can pop out rather than scrape a dick But you know again if you tell me that’s okay that turns me on then I’ll be like, okay, where are my canines? so

Trevor Hoppe (51:21)
Yeah,

Rodney McCoy (51:42)
But so it goes back out. I would say that’s it. Communication. And also knowing what you like. Because…

Trevor Hoppe (51:42)
Communication, yeah.

Yeah, that takes time, right? I mean, that’s so hard. think even, you know, as I’m in my, just, turned 41 recently and it’s still amazing when you learn new things. Old dogs can be taught new tricks, it turns out, but there is a baseline that you need people to be in touch with and, yeah.

Rodney McCoy (52:00)
Yes. Yes.

I would agree, yeah. And being able to communicate that. And to listen. And to listen. Just because five guys before you said they liked that thing, and the sixth guy was like, not so much, you know. And I’m gonna own my stuff. Once upon a time I would be in my physical damn everybody else would do, why don’t you like it? And that goes with the same and hearing no. If they don’t like that, then the next question is, okay, then what would you like me to do? What does

So yes, being able to listen.

Trevor Hoppe (52:38)
What tips would you have for young queer men out there trying to find that best sex but struggling to find

Rodney McCoy (52:44)
The first question I would have is what are you struggling around? If you’re struggling around with being okay with being sexual, what I would, and this is not a read, this is for real. know, counseling is a good thing. A gay sex positive counselor, because there’s a lot of messaging around, particularly men having sex with each other. For some reason, women having sex with each other,

I’m not going to say it’s 100 % acceptable, but women can get a pass. You know, it can be exoticized even, not necessarily for the better, but at least the idea isn’t foreign to a lot of people, but there’s still even a tad more shame and judgment passed still for our sex between each, between, between guys. That’s a lot to unpack to really get to heaven to get. Yeah.

Don’t be ashamed if you need to speak to a counselor about it. That’s number one. Because God knows even in terms of learning how to bottom, there’s some internal mental stuff that I had to get past as well. Eventually I had to talk to people and not just the therapist, but even guys who bottomed it. It’s like, well, how did you navigate this? Or what do you think of this? So one, check the messaging. That’s the big thing. Because once we can get past the shame and the guilt, then it can be

masturbate and play with yourself. You know, a lot of times people treat masturbation like it is the, how do I put it, the appetizer. Or no, no, no, it is the, how do I put this?

It’s what you do in the meantime until you get the real thing. And masturbation is not a placeholder. It is not a filler. It is a viable experience because that is how you learn how you like to have your dck scked That’s how you learn if you like to play with other parts of your body, how you like to be stroked. Again, what other parts of your body you like to be touched. What kind of pressure do you like? Do you like a light touch?

Trevor Hoppe (54:27)
Mmm. Mm -hmm.

Rodney McCoy (54:52)
You need something firm. Toys. Toys for your dick. Toys for your ass. Toys, you know, to play with other parts of your body. You know, different types of lube Masturbation, self -play, solo play. I can’t emphasize that enough. That also helped me bottoming. It still gets me through if I don’t, I live in DC. So I don’t always, I don’t always get the dick that I want when I want it.

Trevor Hoppe (55:02)
Mm -hmm.

Rodney McCoy (55:21)
the toys come in handy and it also helps me prepare. I’ve got toys dildos of different sizes and different thicknesses. So it helps me to play with different textures, different lengths in different positions. So when I finally do get some dick, it’s like, okay, I’m more ready. know, that’s one of the ways I would say to young men, don’t be afraid to play yourself and don’t be afraid to play with yourself because if I’m playing with you, I want to know what you like.

you can have a better way to tell me. And don’t be afraid to have sex with more than one person because that’s how we learn. know, guys, we do different things with guys, they do different things with us. That’s also how we learn. And with that, I would say, don’t forget condoms, PrEP, DoxiePep, getting tested every three to six months. That’s, in my work in HIV prevention, what I tell young men

Trevor Hoppe (55:52)
Mm -hmm.

Rodney McCoy (56:18)
If you want to play the grown -up game, you gotta know the grown -up rules. And those are the rules. Everything I’m saying right now, these are the grown -up rules. This is how you get to being like us.

Trevor Hoppe (56:31)
Playing the big leagues. I like that. Get that Stanley Cup. All these sports analogies.

Rodney McCoy (56:32)
Playing in the big leagues. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am a guy who loves sports, so I do. Football season is coming, kind of unintended. And like I tell any guy that I’m with, it’s like, be prepared to join football with me or at least be okay to be a football widow, or widower, excuse

Trevor Hoppe (56:54)
I mean, I love the outfits for sure. It’s, yeah.

Rodney McCoy (56:58)
I love both, especially when they’re playing the game in the rain and they’ve got those light colored jerseys and pants and the moisture is showing everything while you are doing that Hail Mary pass to win the game that I bet on. I’m one of those few gay guys who really enjoy the game and not just the players themselves, but I actually enjoy the game itself.

Trevor Hoppe (57:23)
Well, I like to end with the same question every time. A segment I called Sorted Lives and Untold Tales or SLUT for shirt. What’s the sluttiest thing you’ve ever

Rodney McCoy (57:32)
yes, that’s right.

Now I’m almost embarrassed to mention it. So the first time I went to, God, there are two stories. I, I can make two quick stories? Okay, so one of the sluttiest things I did was, well, this was kind of mild in comparison, but the first one was kind of mild where I was in Montreal and I was with a partner at the time

Trevor Hoppe (57:46)
Absolutely.

Rodney McCoy (58:04)
things quite bluntly things were not good things were not good and I was like you know what he’s gone to bed I still want some action I want something I didn’t know what so I went so the hotel we were staying at had a bar downstairs so I just decided okay let me just go on some shoes and an oversized t -shirt it was the 90s and that was all and I went downstairs mixed and mingled

And some guys, know, and I wore it low enough that you couldn’t exactly see, but if you look real closely, you could, and some guys were like, is that the only thing you’re wearing? It’s like, maybe, maybe.

Trevor Hoppe (58:43)
I love that!

Rodney McCoy (58:43)
And again, ironically nothing happened, sexual, but I got a lot of attention and I got a lot of energy. I did. No.

Trevor Hoppe (58:51)
-huh. Were you wearing underwear?

Dang! Bold!

Rodney McCoy (58:56)
No, no, no jockstrap. No, I was bold. again, but it came out of the space of like just wanting some kind of attention. And ironically, and again, nothing sexual happened, but I didn’t realize at the time I just wanted attention. So I wound up doing that and got some attention before I went back upstairs. Yeah. And the other thing was, again, playing out in orgy.

Trevor Hoppe (59:18)
of that.

Rodney McCoy (59:24)
sucking as much dick as I could and finally I was just like you know what and I I did I think this was before I learned what bukkake was I was sucking off these guys in a circle and so I wanted all of them to come on me and so I kept sucking on them until one after the other just shot on me and the host and I got up at one point because I had to shout and one dude just and the host just looked at me and he was like jeez you’re covered in cum

And I was. And it was glorious. Glorious. And trying to think. I don’t know if this counts as slutty, but me and my best friend and his husband, my best friend at the time, Maggie Rest In Peace, and his husband and I went to an orgy together. And there was another dude turned out to be a boxer. And so long story short, I’m trying to remember what it was. I think, no, so me and my best friend,

Trevor Hoppe (59:55)
And you were like, yeah.

Rodney McCoy (1:00:22)
He was fing one guy, I was fing another, and we literally were side by side, sinking our thrusts in time, you know, with each other. So we were going in at the same time, we were coming out and going in at the same time. Sometimes we lost the rhythm and then sometimes we got it back. And I was f***ing a boxer and I didn’t realize he was a boxer until after he…

left and was like why are you following us? And I was like yeah, f*** the hell out of you and you wanted more.

Trevor Hoppe (1:00:58)
Yes!

Rodney McCoy (1:00:59)
Yeah, I was, know, Tinashe ain’t got nothing on me. She’s the one who sings Nasty Girl. Yeah, you know what I’m talking about. I was like, I’m glad you’re singing the song, but girl, you ain’t got nothing on

Trevor Hoppe (1:01:12)
my God. Well, amen to that. Clearly you are right. Those stories were fabulous. Thank you for sharing them because, you know, I just think sometimes talking about it, frankly, it’s just real. Like we have these moments where we feel like we’ve got the Stanley Cup right in our hands and it feels nice. So thank you. And thank you so much for making the time, Rod. I really am grateful.

Rodney McCoy (1:01:33)
Right.

Trevor Hoppe (1:01:39)
for your wisdom and insight and experience. Where can people find you if they wanna learn more about you?

Rodney McCoy (1:01:45)
Okay, so I do have a website and it’s Rodney McCoy, R -O -D -M -C -C -O -Y dot info. If you reach me there, you can leave me a message. It’ll come to my email and I have two emails. can reach, not yet, do it through the website. You can also reach me on Instagram, on IG. I am daddy, D -A -D -D -Y dot Rod.

That’s me on Instagram and on Facebook. I am daddy rod D a D D I E Rod and I’m D a D D I E because Facebook won’t let me be great

Trevor Hoppe (1:02:27)
Dang Facebook and Meta. Well, thank you very much. I am so grateful for the conversation and I look forward to hearing more from you out in the world down the road. Thanks.

Rodney McCoy (1:02:32)
Thank you. Thank you so much.

And you will. And you will. Thank you.

Trevor Hoppe (1:02:46)
That’s our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. Truly, I am very grateful. And remember, if you’re not having your best gay sex, I’m here to help. As a sex coach, I can help you identify and overcome barriers that are standing between you and your best gay sex. Find out more on my website, thebestgaysex.net. Till next time, see you soon.

OVERVIEW:

For the Season 1 finale of The Best Gay Sex Podcast, I’m joined by author and sex worker David Wichman to talk about sexual freedom—and why it matters now more than ever. Drawing from his new book “The Four Rooms,” David shares how surviving a rough childhood, navigating survival sex work, and finding queer joy shaped his radical vision of sexual well-being. We dive into why pleasure is political, how connection builds resilience, and why queer joy isn’t just a luxury—it’s a lifeline. Plus, David spills a few juicy stories about taking all the daddy d*ck he can handle (and why that’s self-care, baby).

TRANSCRIPT:

Trevor Hoppe (00:09)
Hey, welcome to the season one finale of the Best Gay Sex podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Trevor Hoppe. Today’s episode is about sexual freedom. You know, if you haven’t been paying attention to the news, you may have missed it. Authoritarianism is on the rise globally. So as we cap off season one, I thought it was important to take a moment and appreciate all those freedoms we enjoy. The freedom to express our sexuality,

the freedom to find joy in our own bodies, and the freedom to seek out and build connection with others that sustain us. The ability for you and me to wake up tomorrow and prioritize pleasure, both our own pleasure and our partner’s pleasure, that is a gift, and it is a gift we ought not take for granted. Perhaps no one understands that better than today’s guest, David Wichman.

David’s the author of the new book, The Four Rooms, an inquiry into sexual freedom and wellbeing. And in that book, he reminds us that sexuality isn’t just a matter of bodies. We have to think about it holistically, also in terms of our hearts and our spirits. He draws on a lifetime of experience as a sex worker, as a survivor, and also as a fierce advocate for queer men’s sexual liberation.

He reminds us that sexual freedom isn’t just a matter of being able to do whatever we want or whoever we want. It’s also about making space for all of ourselves, not just the good parts, know, the joys, the pleasures, the victories, also the messy stuff, the failures, the insecurities, the wounds. He reminds us that even the simplest act of seeking out touch

can itself be an act of resistance. So as we close out season one, I couldn’t think of a better note to end on. A reminder that queer joy isn’t just a luxury, it’s a lifeline. Let’s listen in.

Trevor Hoppe (02:19)
David Wichman, welcome to the Best Gay Sex podcast. It is a pleasure to have you on to talk about all that you do, including your new book, which we will get to in due course, but…

David Wichman (02:23)
Thank you, thank you.

Mmm.

Trevor Hoppe (02:34)
Let’s situate people, tell folks a little bit about where you’re from, where you grew up, where you became a little sexual human being.

David Wichman (02:42)
wow. That’s we just spoke about me talking all the way around the block. I live in Palm Springs right now. I have been here for 13 years. I grew up in San Francisco and I became a little sexual demon when I was born. I don’t know any better way to explain it because I feel like I have been.

Trevor Hoppe (02:49)
Ahahaha

David Wichman (03:09)
a lifelong sex worker either through survival, the type of work that I do, all the way through the type of work that I do today and doing content and all kinds of stuff. But it is, I have felt like it has either been the foundational part of my life, aside from the many, many years of drug addiction that I lived through. It was still a part of it. So I don’t know how better to explain.

Trevor Hoppe (03:37)
Yeah, little demon, grew up, so you grew up in the Bay Area, is that right?

David Wichman (03:41)
I did,

I did. was actually born and raised in Fremont of all places.

Trevor Hoppe (03:44)
Uh-huh. my gosh. Were your

first experiences then going into the city? Was that like where you would run off to?

David Wichman (03:53)
Early experiences were, although my first experiences were not. It’s kind of the I have this funny little story that I often remember for some reason when I was like in high school, I cruised this guy at a stoplight when I was walking down the street and he picked me up and took me back to his place. And yes, he totally did. It was like this guy, he was Middle Eastern and he was super hot. And we had this very hot, hot

Trevor Hoppe (04:10)
What?

David Wichman (04:21)
sexual time that I was traumatized by a little bit because I don’t know if I had ever been fucked before. And I remember him and it hurt and I remember him being, it’s okay, don’t worry. It’s okay. You want this, blah, blah. was, I was very young. I mean, I wasn’t a baby. I was totally looking for it, but I just often remember that guy because I just think

Trevor Hoppe (04:44)
Yeah.

David Wichman (04:48)
you know, because he disappeared into the ethers and you know, that moment was over. But yeah, that was my maybe that was maybe that was my first time getting fucked. I don’t remember. So.

Trevor Hoppe (04:53)
Yeah.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. But you knew you

were definitely attracted to boys from a young age. That was not a, yeah, that was not lost.

David Wichman (05:06)
yes. I think everybody

else knew I was attracted to boys at a very young age, too, because I was, you know, relentlessly bullied and my parents even called me a little queer and all kinds of, you know, little horrible things. So, you know, which I talk about in my first book.

I don’t know that they would refer to me as a little queer, but they would definitely make the references, you know. Anyways, don’t… The recollection is traumatic. I have a lot of trauma in my first book, so it’s a heavy duty read.

Trevor Hoppe (05:34)
Hmm.

I can imagine it sounds like there were some experiences that led you down your path. you, what, what, what were those first early experiences like? mean, situate us in terms of you’re picking this guy up at the stoplight. What year are we talking here? Is this the nineties? This is the, ⁓ okay. We’re going back, baby.

David Wichman (06:01)
goodness, this is the 80s now. I’m 56. I’m 56, yeah.

Back back. Even before the phone sex lines, well maybe they were there but I didn’t know about them.

Trevor Hoppe (06:10)
And was

It would seem like like the AIDS was like the backdrop for that experience is that

David Wichman (06:25)

Was it though? I think this is. AIDS was 1981.

But I really didn’t start seeing it on television and really becoming aware of it until I was like 85, 86. Because, know, Reagan and the media were silent about it for quite a while. And it was, and I was sort of in my, I was running away from home and living in foster care and very consumed with my dramatic.

Trevor Hoppe (06:43)
Uh-huh.

David Wichman (07:00)
you know, 15 year old life. So it was not like I was watching the daily news. And it wasn’t like I was really super aware of what was going on in the world. I was, you know, living in a very shadowy time. So, yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (07:10)
Hmm. Mmm.

Yeah. And

you ran away from home. Is that because of your sexuality?

David Wichman (07:23)
No. So I grew up in a very abusive household. I was actually escaped that household and lived in foster care for many years until I was about 17 years old. And then I aged out of foster care. And during those periods of time, I actually lived a really cool, fun experience in foster care. So I didn’t have a lot of sexual experiences in foster care, but I do remember

Trevor Hoppe (07:37)
Mmm.

Really?

David Wichman (07:53)
that I was like out one night. And that is one of the, actually had sex in a Bart, in a Bart station bathroom with some guy I met on the Bart train. You know, I’m in junior high, I’m in high school, know, sophomore year. So those early sort of hookup experiences, those random things would happen periodically. There’s actually an exciting story. These guys, these,

Trevor Hoppe (08:02)
Ahahahahah

Yes.

Uh-huh.

David Wichman (08:22)
girl and two guys, I actually, this is very eighties, they were dressed like the Thompson twins. I mean, literally like they could have been the Thompson twins, right? You know, and I was totally into that. And I used to take the Bart train from my foster home to the records stores in Berkeley and go through and look for my Stevie Nicks and you know, all of my divas records that were coming out. And on my way back to my foster home,

Trevor Hoppe (08:30)
⁓ my gosh. my gosh.

David Wichman (08:51)
these three picked me up and one of the older daddy guys, was fucking so hot. I was very attracted to him and he put the moves, they took me back to their place to smoke weed, And he took me into the bedroom and started playing with me. And the other two, the girl and the guy that were with him, the other queer individuals.

Trevor Hoppe (09:05)
my goodness.

David Wichman (09:16)
on the door and demanded that he get out. They put me in the car and drove me back to my foster home. But that stuff happened back then. I don’t know how to explain it. I didn’t feel like like I totally.

You know, it was like, this is an adventure.

Trevor Hoppe (09:38)
Growing up like in the Bay Area was, I think some people like, I grew up in North Carolina, so I imagine people who grew up elsewhere must’ve had all these resources available to them. What was like sex ed like for you growing up there?

David Wichman (09:51)
Well, what I remember of it is that it was available. I remember having to take a permission slip home to be able to access it, right? To be able to go like, your kid is going to be in sexual education and this. But it was all very. It’s a blur, but the little things that I remember was that it was very clinical and very scientific and it was very these are fallopian tubes and blah, blah, blah. And it was very textbook.

Trevor Hoppe (10:14)
Mm-hmm.

David Wichman (10:20)
And it was like three days. And it wasn’t. And it was junior high school, was seventh grade, and it was like, here you are. This is it. You know, and it was right around the time one of my friends found like a dirty magazine somewhere, like a hustler or something. And there was a naked man with a hairy chest and, you know, in it with a woman. And I was like, my.

Trevor Hoppe (10:23)
Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

David Wichman (10:49)
All of those, you know, all of that stuff came up for me and I was like, I really like that. So, but sex education in school was very brief and scientific. It was like taking a, you know, what did they call them? Assemblies. When you went to assembly, was like you go to science lab to talk about sex education. It was very bizarre. But that’s all I remember.

Trevor Hoppe (10:58)
Uh-huh.

Mm-hmm.

Uh-huh.

Yeah,

uh-huh. And you’re going out and finding other sources of information, I guess these like magazines and we’re like porn theaters? Is that still, is that a thing?

David Wichman (11:20)
Yeah.

Well, porn theaters

were around, which believe it or not, they used to be on every corner in San Francisco. Now I didn’t venture into San Francisco much as a high schooler. I did a couple of times and it was one time was really awful because like the BART train used to stop running at midnight. And so if you missed it, you’re fucked. So.

Trevor Hoppe (11:53)
Uh-huh. Yeah.

David Wichman (11:58)
Yeah, so I ended up spending the night at this guy’s house, this guy’s apartment, who was really super creepy. it was really, it was a weird experience. But I only started venturing into San Francisco when I ran away from the foster care system.

I had to go AWOL because I was aging out anyway and I was living with some other people. It’s just a complicated story and it doesn’t need to be in your podcast. I ended up in San Francisco when I was about 18 years old and that is when, you know, the drugs and the sex and the rock and roll and I was very much a wannabe hippie. I explored with a lot of psychedelic drugs in my high school years and

Trevor Hoppe (12:25)
You

David Wichman (12:46)
and San Francisco called to me. And I thought it was because of the free spirit of San Francisco, but also the opportunities for work because I wasn’t, I didn’t have a job. I was basically homeless.

Trevor Hoppe (13:01)
Mm-hmm.

So it sounds like in San Francisco, this might have been the genesis of your sex work career.

David Wichman (13:05)
Yes,

yeah, because sex work for me started out as a survival skill. It was something that I found out that I could do in order to at some points have a place to live, support my drug addiction, to eat, you know. So I would post ads actually and cruise men in the parks and and survive.

And that was how sort of I lived for a really long time in and out of relationships and these other types of experiences. But there was, you know, it was a very sexual time, believe it or not, even though AIDS was a big deterrent back then, you know.

Trevor Hoppe (13:46)
yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And when you’re saying ads, you mean like, are we talking classifieds?

David Wichman (13:57)
Yes, in the pack of the paper. Yes.

Trevor Hoppe (14:00)
What

would your ad say?

David Wichman (14:03)
⁓ man, I just found it too like three years ago. It said, ⁓ why can’t I think of it? ⁓ it didn’t say this, the thing that came out is young, hung and dumb, right? But it was, it did not say that, but it said hot young guy, hot hung guy. remember, right. Cause I could only afford the cheap ad.

I can only afford the text. Like all these other escorts and sex workers, they got to have their picture with their torso. This is so dating me. I actually, believe it or not, the Barrier Reporter has an archive of all of their papers. And by accident one day, I was looking for something completely different. I was like, let me just check. And sure enough, there it was. And I went by this name. I went by a fake name.

John, J-O-N, and I found my fucking ad. I have a picture of it. I took a screenshot immediately. I was like, oh, this is so wild. 1990 something. I don’t want to know. But it was a trip because back then you had to use a pay phone. You had to pay for a pager. And I never had money because I was always on drugs.

Trevor Hoppe (15:06)
⁓ my God.

David Wichman (15:22)
So my page would get turned off. was just, it’s all such a tragic story, but it was the first foray into survival sex work. it was, it isn’t where I realized, but in hindsight, I discovered the work that I do today was sort of found, it was so informative into the world that I live in now.

Because in the initial years, there was this resistance. like, I’m going to sleep with this guy that I don’t know. I don’t even know who’s be in 99.9 % of the time. You don’t. You didn’t know who was behind the door that you were knocking on. And you were just, you know, sort of. Praying to be safe, but then at the same time, you were excited and knew that you were going to get some money and you knew you were going to.

have some hot sex and deliver and get on with your life. So survival sex work is a very interesting.

Trevor Hoppe (16:24)
Hmm.

David Wichman (16:28)
education on sexual freedom, that’s for sure. Because it’s still happening today, you know, and it still has its place. It’s still vital and sacred in my opinion, it’s very important. Especially for marginalized communities of people, trans and other sex workers still do survival sex work.

sustains them rather than being.

you know, without any resources. So it’s really important.

Trevor Hoppe (17:04)
Yeah, I guess you’re distinguishing survival sex work from what you do now. How would you describe what you do now?

David Wichman (17:13)
Well…

What I’ve done for the past 18 years, is not, 17, I guess the first year of my recovery was survival sex work, because I didn’t really know. I had a few experiences, but one in particular that I had was with a man who called me and did not tell me that he was an amputee. And I walked in and I didn’t know, and,

I assume that he was a diabetic in hindsight because when I walked in, in early recovery, so I’m still very raw, and he removed his prosthetic leg and set it to the side and looked up at me and he was just like, is this gonna be okay for you? And like, I was, time slowed down, I was frozen in my skin, I didn’t understand.

you know what, what was happening, you know, like I didn’t get to pick and choose this moment. But something arrived within me that said, this is important. This man looked really miserable. He looked very hurt. He looked wounded. He looked as if he expected me to walk out. I’m assuming maybe even has had that experience on a number of occasions. And I put on my like,

Trevor Hoppe (18:34)
Mm-hmm.

David Wichman (18:41)
Here comes David, smile, and I was like, fuck yeah, that’s okay, let’s go. And I hopped on his lap and we started making out and I started playing with him. And when I say time slowed down, it’s because the memory that I have of that experience, whether it felt that way in that moment or not, is that it was almost as if the brokenness that I saw in his face and the sort of expecting rejection.

began to disappear and this sort of light come on. it was a pivotal moment, not only in my recovery, but in the work that I do in the world today. It was a defining moment. was…

It was almost like an epiphany or a what people in recovery and 12 step love to call a spiritual experience. ⁓ because I left there.

I won’t say changed, but a part of me uncovered, a part of me arrived that said, this is the work that you’re gonna do in the world that’s gonna matter. I get really a little emotional about it because it began to really matter to me. It began to become more about.

what I was learning in 12 step recovery about showing up and being of service and being useful in the world and having a function that says, you know, you can move on through another day without getting loaded. And, you know, I was doing a whole bunch of other stuff. I was walking dogs and things like that, but this work started showing up and marginalized people began arriving in my, across the thresholds that I stepped into.

and

I want to be careful how I say this because I was almost always excited about it. was like, awesome, I get to be that guy. I get to be this person. And it was a bit of ego involved in that at the same time, but it felt purposeful and meaningful to me. And I hope it always felt meaningful to those that I showed up for that were.

maybe untouched for a number of years, maybe isolated, maybe felt in a place of complete despair or invisible. And to a lot of people, not all, but a lot of people that I ended up working with, especially in my early recovery, seemed to be isolated, super overweight.

or in some form or another felt completely sexually incapable or unacceptable. And my job was to show up and pretend like none of that existed in the way that I would without pretending. I would see it, I would acknowledge it, but I wouldn’t make it the purpose for my visit. It was a…

Trevor Hoppe (21:45)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.

David Wichman (21:47)
I talk about it in the book a lot because I don’t know how to describe it, what it was or how it works. And I call it this sense of this sort of like energetic alchemy because I can’t describe it any other way because I’m still, know, like it’s one of the most frustrating parts about writing The Four Rooms was like, how do I really describe what happens in the rooms that I walk into?

Trevor Hoppe (22:08)
Mm-hmm.

David Wichman (22:13)
Because for years it was about justifying, about protecting, and I’m this person and this is I do what I do and you can’t stop me. And it became something much more deeper than that.

Trevor Hoppe (22:24)
Hmm.

Do you use the word sacred intimate to describe your work?

David Wichman (22:27)
I do not.

Trevor Hoppe (22:29)
Interesting. What, what?

David Wichman (22:30)
Yeah, I do not.

I know a lot of people like to use that word. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (22:33)
Yeah, it sounds

so rooted in a tradition that has echoes of that. So what do you distinguish as your work from that term?

David Wichman (22:39)
Yeah.

I’m a sex worker and what I do is I provide sexual gratification to people, to men that I work with and

Trevor Hoppe (22:44)
Uh-huh.

David Wichman (22:51)
And I don’t claim to play a part in their healing. I don’t claim to play a part in their uncovering of who they are and their discovery of their enoughness, their moments of being wanted, feeling wanted and desirable. Because that’s what I provide. I think a lot of sacred intimates also provide that.

There’s a part of me that has an opinion about sacred intimacy that is not negative or positive. It just feels healer, descriptive. It’s I’m this healer. I’m here to heal you. And the stuff that I do, I would rather call it more. And many sacred instruments do this now as well. It took a while, but I’d rather witness. I’d rather show up and allow what enters the room to enter the room.

and to be what it is without attaching this discovery or this magnificent change that arrives. more in the school of that person’s already there. They were always there and you’re beginning to uncover that is your work. It’s not mine. I just got to be a tool and an instrument and a witness to be present for it.

I will cry in a heartbeat talking about it because it’s so powerful. It’s such a, from that position of witness and not taking any, not accountability, crediting myself as being some part of their healing process, but just allowing myself to show up as an instrument is,

very freeing for me in a way, it also is, for me, allows me to…

Really.

embody that experience for what it is. Because sometimes it’s not always this ecstatic revelation. Sometimes it’s really difficult. Sometimes it’s really dark and shadowy. And sometimes it can go really sideways for people. You start uncovering part to yourself after you haven’t loved yourself for decades and you haven’t given yourself compassion or grace or the ability to be touched by another human being. And all of a sudden all the other stuff arrives.

And it’s intense.

Trevor Hoppe (25:27)
I guess I’m just struck because it sounds like you’re describing healing.

David Wichman (25:30)
Okay. I don’t even have an answer for it because I don’t have an answer to that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. it’s a word. I don’t know why. And I think because I have this idea around it that I don’t want to take ownership of being the healer. And my copy editor on the back of my first book.

Trevor Hoppe (25:40)
But I’m fascinated by that. I’m not challenging you.

Yo.

David Wichman (26:00)
called me a sexual healer and I didn’t see it until the proof came out. And I was like, how dare you call me a sexual healer? I am not a healer. Don’t you call me a healer. Isn’t it wild? So I don’t, that’s my stuff. And that’s why I don’t.

Trevor Hoppe (26:12)
How dare you!

That is fascinating!

David Wichman (26:24)
I don’t have a negative or positive or an opinion about being called a sacred intimate. Many people will describe the work I do as sacred intimacy, especially when I work with somebody who’s in their last days or hours of their life and things like that, which is really, that’s to me very sacred. I think all the work that we do in the world is sacred and important, especially if it brings meaning to us and to others.

Trevor Hoppe (26:49)
What lessons do you think you’ve brought to your sex outside of the sex work realm from, from that you learned in sex work? Mm-hmm.

David Wichman (26:57)
for myself.

⁓ yeah, well, that that I’m human and that I have this I can answer it really easily because what I notice, which is really interesting, is that I will have judgment. You know, like I’ll have a judgment about a person’s body or another person’s profile or what they say in their description or any kind of you name it. I’ll have a judgment about it. And then I’ll also have this like

immediate instinct to reject. And sometimes I do and other times I’m like, ⁓ there you are. You’re you’re you’re doing that thing that you, you know, hope that others will allow to happen, but live alongside of all of the other assets that they bring into that space. And so

And I also changed a little bit of my languaging about how I speak about the work that I do and the life that I live. Because I’m human, you know, and I get judgy. I get pissy. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I try to be though, God.

Trevor Hoppe (28:08)
Mm-hmm.

Amen. We have to give ourselves grace to fail and to be not perfect because we are not perfect. Absolutely. And thank God for that.

I know. I feel that.

David Wichman (28:25)
It’s folly

and it’s hilarious sometimes.

Trevor Hoppe (28:29)
What is sexual freedom?

David Wichman (28:30)
Sexual freedom to me is really about inviting in all the parts of myself in the sexual ideal that I think I’m working towards or coexisting with, especially the stuff that stops my feelings of being free.

my dick isn’t big enough or my body isn’t like that guy’s body or, you know, I’m not young enough. And allow that to sit at the table with the fact that I’ve had a shit ton of sex, that I have a lot of really great experiences. I have the privilege of doing the work that I do. So I’m already playing from an advantage. That my heart is filled with compassion for myself and others.

So I feel like that sexual freedom on the spectrum of moving through it, moving toward it, I don’t know that sexual freedom exists in a way that we would want it to exist, right? Like for everyone to have equal rights, for everybody to fuck whoever they wanna fuck, for everybody to do what they wanna do.

You know, I would love for that to exist.

Trevor Hoppe (29:44)
Yeah, so it’s not some,

it’s not an idyllic principle where we have a right for every other person to be attracted to us at all times, right? Like that’s not sexual freedom. But there is, I mean, there are questions that I guess I’m interested in, which is like, do you think we all, do we have a right to be desired?

David Wichman (30:05)
My hope is that you feel that you find that you’re desired.

I talk about it in the book a lot, remaining curious about what you desire and how you desire it.

I like for that adventure to be uncovered in a way that is free of judgment. What does sexual freedom look like to you? What is it for you? In society and in the messages and in our imprints and in the messages that we get from the outside world, you could be the hottest, most idyllic person there is and still feel undesirable.

And digging around in that, how do I describe it in the book? I describe it as like an archaeologist digging around in that rubble and looking for those little treasures are the ideas that I try to present that that’s our journey, right? That’s our individual journey. It’s wonderful when another person validates us and says, you’re desirable.

in whatever ways that they do that. And it could be a thousand different ways. And, you know, we idolize people a lot these days, these hot porn stars and the, you know, the cis white male Adonis has been the captivated ideal for such a long time. And now as we start evolving and moving through other body types and other genres of people’s bodies and genders, it’s

it’s becoming more exciting, and it’s also becoming more dangerous, and it’s also becoming more scary for a lot of people. I…

In the four rooms, you won’t find me making declarations, you know, because it’s a book on self-activation and self-discovery and uncovering parts of yourself that are in exile or that are unseen or that are undiscovered as of right now. so.

You know, I don’t know that I have an answer for what is sexual freedom in as a definition. I just know what it if I close my eyes and I think about what it means to me right now, it means, you know, a number of things for me personally right now, you know.

Trevor Hoppe (32:28)
Yeah,

I get that. guess I’m just thinking that a lot of people are probably, you know, concerned about the state of our freedoms in the world we live in right now. What can we do to protect and promote sexual freedom?

David Wichman (32:44)
There’s a part of me what’s going on right now is that I and and I said this earlier to you before we started the podcast is that I feel like this Sexual freedom as a form of resistance is almost becoming a catchphrase and it may be because my book and the algorithm is talking to me like that, but But no one’s talking about how You know just go out and fuck just go out

to the sex club, just go out and fuck your boyfriend or hook up, you know. If you keep having queer sex, you’ll be free. And I don’t know that…

But that’s available to a lot of people. There a lot of people doing self-activation work that doesn’t call them to those spaces, that doesn’t call people to go to the sex club, even though I encourage people to go to the sex club. At least once in your life.

What I like to talk about in the four rooms is about creating connection and creating community and doing what you can and keep creating. And that to me, I feel I remember when COVID hit and I felt so completely helpless. You know, I felt like what can I do? And I’m sitting in this studio that I’m in right now and I’m miserable and I’m not doing anything. Right. I can’t work, can’t touch people, can’t go out, can’t travel, can’t do anything. And I couldn’t figure it out.

After decades of fighting for our sexuality and our LGBTQIA rights and marriage equality and everything, you would think I would immediately know what to do. And I had to be reminded to join the ACLU again, to the Free Speech Coalition, to, as I can and as I will and have done, give money to organizations that matter and write letters to my senators, even if I’m from a liberal area.

and do things like that and make connections with the people I’m closest to, speak to whatever pod of people is around me, because that’s kind of foundational to moving forward. there are people who feel completely helpless and in fear all the time. And when you’re in despair and in fear, the last thing you’re thinking of is getting laid. And so,

If I’m not taking actions to feel on purpose in the world, and I want to talk about this a little bit, then I’m also not allowing myself to be touched. And in my perspective and in the world I live in, if I’m not being touched, even if I’m not self-pleasure, hooking up, fucking with my boyfriend or…

my fuck buddies ⁓ i’m

Placing myself in a position to become in a very unhealthy state of being. And it perpetuates more despair and loneliness and isolation. And so I always say, create connections, do things you’ve never done. In the book, I talk a little bit about how difficult it is to really sit down and tell people that you love how much you love them and about how much they mean to you.

Trevor Hoppe (36:16)
Mm-hmm.

David Wichman (36:17)
Like

I literally intentionally stop what you’re doing and pick up the phone or when you run into Joe Schmoe and you say, know what I got to, I just want to take a moment right now. I want to stop everything. And I want to tell you how much I love you and how important you are to me. And I cannot tell you how

freeing that is and how difficult and rare it can be sometimes for us to get really caught up in protesting and anxiety and doom scrolling and all of that other stuff and living in, you know, the room of the thinking mind, which is one of the sections of the book, we’re obsessed. And if we’re not visiting all four rooms, including the room with the body, it is my contention.

that we are betraying ourselves in a way that can create a sense of not enoughness, less wellbeing.

Trevor Hoppe (37:20)
Well, think,

you know, community is the only thing that’s going to save us for me. So I think you have to have community as a foundation. And so building those connections, sexual or not, and they can be sexual. think people don’t appreciate that a sexual community can be strong. ⁓ and those bonds can, can really do, you know, collectively a lot. So I appreciate that, that we have to.

David Wichman (37:24)
Mm. Mm.

Yeah.

yes.

Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (37:46)
look inwards to our own community and get that house in order in some ways and invest in that community to have a foundation to build any state of sexual freedom from, because if we don’t have those bonds, then what will that freedom get us, guess. So I definitely appreciate that. just think it’s a…

David Wichman (37:52)
Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (38:09)
You know, it’s, it’s, so many bold assertions happening every day about the state of our freedom, how much freedom we have or we don’t have. And it, and it’s hard to kind of put your finger on it, but it definitely feels like we want to be mindful of obviously the political climate we’re in. ⁓ but we also have to have some space outside of that. It’s, it’s kind of a.

can feel paralyzing that sort of conflict, I guess.

David Wichman (38:43)
I, you probably remember Dan Savage said that quote recently, the next four years are gonna suck really bad, really bad. And during the AIDS crisis, we danced all day, we protested all day and we danced all night and we, because we needed to build the resiliency, we needed our queer joy in order to have the resiliency to fight and to continue to fight. And I think that that is what’s really important about that.

The catchphrase that I’m talking about is that your queer sex is a form of protest is because in order for you to have in order for us to have the community to sustain the energy to keep the commitment to align ourselves with the people that we love and care about and that we want to protect, we definitely need to be able to build that resiliency. And if you are not visiting the room of queer joy,

your body, your emotions, your sacredness, you’re running on fumes in my personal experience. You’re hiding out in the internet, which I love to do. It’s such a drug for me. Yes, yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (39:58)
Yeah, ⁓ we all do, I mean, right?

So I always like to end with my favorite segment, is Sordid Lives or Untold Tales or S.L.U.T. for short. What’s the sluttiest thing you ever did?

David Wichman (40:03)
Okay.

Ooh.

⁓ goodness.

Gosh, it’s it’s gonna sound so vanilla. And I still do it all the time. I go I go to the sex club and I just because most of my work I’m top and I’m you know, the guy who’s doing all the fucking and I can get very ravenous and I will go to the sex club and I will take all the daddy dick I can get. Just

Trevor Hoppe (40:19)
I love that.

Yeah.

David Wichman (40:42)
bring it on. And I do it because it’s a part of my self care. It’s a part of my mental, physical well-being, my spiritual condition.

Trevor Hoppe (40:47)
Amen.

Absolutely.

David Wichman (40:56)
Take loads!

Trevor Hoppe (40:59)
You know, it’s a homeopathic anti-depressant. It’s all sorts of good for you. Semen is never… Well, I love that. Any particular club you frequent regularly?

David Wichman (41:06)
Yes it is.

Yeah.

Well, when I’m home, I go to 541, which is our new sex club in Palm Springs, which is super, super fun. And it’s busy and it’s super busy on Wednesdays at 10 in the morning till three in the afternoon for some reason, because it’s a, you know, we have people who live here full time retired. And if you’re a daddy lover like me, you’ll, you know, you’ll benefit great. Yes. You’ll benefit greatly from going. It’s like 10 bucks. But I like to get all of them. I like to go to all.

Trevor Hoppe (41:19)

Nice.

Happy hump day.

Okay.

I for that energy. Well, David, if people want to learn more about you and the work that you do, where can they find you?

David Wichman (41:45)
Get Get

Well, I’m on all the platforms under my name David underscore SF xxx. So if you want to see all my salacious content Go there. I’m on you know, I got the website David’s world dot me which is to get my books and to find out where I’m at and my events and things like that and I appear at a lot of sex parties like fornication and stuff as a performer still

to this day, which I love doing. So yeah, but I’m very approachable and I’m very reachable.

Trevor Hoppe (42:28)
Thank you.

love that. Well thank you for all you do to promote sexual freedom. I am grateful for that and all your work.

David Wichman (42:31)
Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (42:36)
That’s our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. And if you’ve been listening this whole season, I can’t express my gratitude more. It has been a joy and a pleasure to bring this information and these conversations to you, the listener. And if you’ve enjoyed season one, please, please take a moment out of your busy day and leave us a review on Spotify or Apple or YouTube, wherever you listen to your podcasts.

I would be most grateful for some positivity out there. It is really hard to get this content in front of people. There’s so much shadow banning, et cetera. I’m sure you can understand. So thank you for being here. And I would love it if you could help others get here as well. And of course, always as a reminder, if you are not having your best gay sex, I’m here to help.

My services as a sex coach can help you identify and overcome those obstacles that are standing between you and your best sex life. Find out more on my website, thebestgaysex.net. We’ll see you next season and I’ve got some great stuff cooked up for you. I cannot wait to tell you about season two, coming fall 2025. See you later.

OVERVIEW:

What do fisting parties, military discipline, and chosen family have in common? According to Master J. Tebias Perry—a leather legend and author of Leather Mentorship—they’re all part of the kinky, complicated path to becoming your authentic, sex-drenched self. In this juicy episode, Dr. Trevor Hoppe dives deep with Master Tebias about the power of mentorship, the joy of voyeurism, and why the best gay sex starts with trust, curiosity, and a whole lot of lube. Get ready to laugh, learn, and maybe clutch your pearls.

TRANSCRIPT:

Trevor Hoppe (00:09)
Hey, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Trevor Hoppe. Today’s episode is about mentorship. You know, for queer people, family is often chosen, not inherited. When it comes to those key life lessons like learning about sex, relationships, or kink, we really can’t rely on dear old mom and dad for those lessons. We kind of have to chart our own course.

And today’s guest, Master J Tebias Perry, knows that all too well. After growing up in a small central Georgia town, he later joined the military and ultimately found the leather community. And he has never looked back. With his new book, Leather Mentorship, Master Tebias is showing a new generation the power and value of mentorship. And spoiler alert.

Mentorship isn’t about control. It’s actually about a deep form of care and even love. And it might just be the thing that saves us. Let’s listen in.

Trevor Hoppe (01:18)
Master J Tebias Perry. Welcome to The Best Gay Sex Podcast

Master J. Tebias Perry (01:22)
Thank you so much for having me. I’ve heard a lot about you and I’m here in the flesh baby. I’m here in the flesh

Trevor Hoppe (01:28)
We are so excited to have you. Daddy Rod, a previous guest gave your highest praise and recommended you come on. So I’m really thrilled to have the chance to talk to you about your new book and all the activism and work you’ve been doing in the leather community. But before we get to today, I just want to help listeners kind of understand you and a little bit about your story. What was it like growing up in Georgia?

Master J. Tebias Perry (01:51)
we didn’t know what anything was other than our little small bubble. I was raised in a very small town called Reynolds, Georgia, maybe 1500 people or less. White people lived on one side of the tracks. Black people lived on the other side of the tracks. And I am from a middle class family that were entrepreneurs. So it was really, it felt kind of isolated like.

We knew that Atlanta was an hour away, but we never had any interest on going because everything we needed was right But I didn’t know that this big world existed until I got out of Reynolds, Georgia. yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (02:27)
Yeah,

what caused you to leave Reynolds?

Master J. Tebias Perry (02:30)
As I became older and more interested in different things, I saw the world differently from my television and I wanted to do a lot of things. I mean, multiple things. I wanted to dance, but I didn’t find that because I have such a strong religious background and my mom never really technically wanted me to dance. She wanted me to go to college. She wanted me to do the military and that was what I did, but I did feel kind of

I still feel that shit. It’s like I’m feeling it welling up in me now. Like I should have been dancing for Alvin Ailey in which I wanted, but yeah, I made it. I think I did pretty well.

Trevor Hoppe (03:11)
So when you say dance, you mean like professionally dance. I was picturing like boogieing at the club or something, but you mean like literally you wanted to dance.

Master J. Tebias Perry (03:19)
I wanted to dance. It started out with, and then started with Gregory Haines. And I just followed all these dancers like tap dance and jazz and all of this. And then I got, I started looking at a lot of pictures and videos of like ballet. And I was like, I really think I want to do that. Cause I was tall, was slender.

And I never really had the gay thing in my mind until I started finding interest in that, and that I found more interest looking at myself as I think I may be attracted to men. So I think, you know, in the latter parts of my teens, was attracted guys before I graduated high school.

Trevor Hoppe (04:02)
You started to realize that you were attracted to guys at the end of high school. Did you have any early kind of forays into, into messing around with guys?

Master J. Tebias Perry (04:12)
Well, just, you know, just locker room stuff like you just compare and you look down, look down and that was pretty much it. But nothing moving like to the point where we’re touching and feeling and all this.

Trevor Hoppe (04:25)
What were your first adventures into sexuality like?

Master J. Tebias Perry (04:29)
We’re talking about two different things now. You’re talking about with women or with guys.

Trevor Hoppe (04:34)
I mean generally, yeah, so if women was the starting point, what was that like?

Master J. Tebias Perry (04:38)
it really stemmed from from church. So my only interest in sex was the neighbor, the older neighbor who used to babysit us, babysit us, who showed me what it looked like inside. And I really found interest in that, really found interest in it. And that was the thing to do being from a small town. was you guys go with girls, girls go with guys.

And that was the way it was supposed to go. So I did find interest in that, moved on to college, dated Miss Fort Valley State. And then after that, was hell over heels from there when I got into the military. So.

Trevor Hoppe (05:19)
the military was your gateway drug, huh?

Master J. Tebias Perry (05:21)
That was my gateway drug for really, really opening who I was because essentially I’m 21, 22 years old. I’m on my own, I’m making my own money, I’m in my own place. And yeah, I started to explore a little bit more, yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (05:35)
did you know what to do? Like what were you, what, what inspired you sexually? Did you learn from pornography or like magazines or what were the kind of touchstones in your life at that point?

Master J. Tebias Perry (05:45)
VHS tapes. I started out with the VHS tapes and then I wanted to go a little bit more risque so I found interest in bookstore culture which a lot of us do. I mean we all start out with the seedy-ness of sexuality like what the fuck can I get away with? What is the most deviant thing that I could possibly do? So it started out more like the VHS

Trevor Hoppe (05:47)
Hi.

haha

Master J. Tebias Perry (06:12)
the masturbation, mutual masturbations. And then I started with a deeper level of exploring more with older guys, because I’ve always had an affinity for older, more masculine guys. And, you know, back in the day, used to be whoever has the biggest dick is going to top or whatever. So I ended up on this end of the spectrum. So older guys really taught me a lot more about myself.

than people that were my age. So they taught me about leather, they taught me about fetish and other stuff. And it was just so different back then. We didn’t have easy accessibility to the internet. This was Craigslist and the chat lines and other this stuff. The chat line, can you believe it? So yeah, the bookstores, I found interest in those and it was fun. It was fun while it lasted.

Trevor Hoppe (06:58)
Loved Craigslist. Yeah.

Yeah. When did you first start to think that leather excited you?

Master J. Tebias Perry (07:13)
was really a combination, Trev, between the discipline that I had in the military versus the seediest and most gutter shit that I’ve ever wanted to do. It was really a mixture in between that. And once I decided and got a divorce, because I was in the military and married, is that I got to get a divorce in order to do what the fuck I want to do. Because I don’t want to bring someone into this experience with me not being truthful.

with who I am. So true fucking story. I was in the gym. I had just gotten back from Desert Storm. My best friend, Alan, was saying, my God, you’re so huge. Look at your muscles. You know, all of us have this summer of puberty where we just grow up and we become men like overnight. So I came back from Desert Storm, was working out, shaved my head and was at the gym. This older white guy

And I said, can I get a spot? Can I get a spot? The traditional spot in the gym, he’s standing over me, I’m on the bench and I can see everything looking up. Looking up. So that was really my first real encounter with someone who just so happened to have been a kinkster And he showed me everything. It started from just very light cruising.

Trevor Hoppe (08:19)
Hmm?

Huh.

Master J. Tebias Perry (08:36)
weeks and months, if not two years of this cruising and flirting in the gym, know, mutual masturbation. And long story short, I got a divorce and he and I started dating. And he taught me everything I knew at my first duty station. it was, I don’t know if it was love, but it was more me exploring. And he taught me all that I needed to know about leather. And that was, God, that was 96.

  1. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (09:05)
Some people hear the term leather and they picture the material. obviously it means a lot more to you than just cowhide. What does leather represent to you?

Master J. Tebias Perry (09:17)
Well, when I first came into it, it was all about the sex. was about only just the conquer. between whipping, flogging,

all the above, but it was more or less about the sex first. And then as I became matured, as my mentor says, as I became matured in leather and in my kinks, found a deeper appreciation for what came before us, like the Marsha P. Johnsons and the leather community, were radical activists who really had a cause and a purpose.

behind the reason of our visibility, not only as gay folks, but leather folks as well. And all of them were on this movement. And I just found more.

interests and I think age had something to do with that. I was getting older. I was in the world in my military career and learning more about the community as a whole. So learning more responsibility gave me more responsibility into what I wanted to be, who I was representing.

and what I was representing and where I wanted to go with that. So My mentors that I took on along the way kind of guided me where I wanted to go. Did I want it to be a hardcore kinkster or did I want to be an activist, someone who was an educator, a creator of content and developing people who were coming behind me. So I became more into an activist on where I am now, an educator.

Trevor Hoppe (10:48)
I know your work right now especially deals a lot in the topic of mentorship when it comes to leather.

Master J. Tebias Perry (10:48)
you

Trevor Hoppe (10:54)
What lessons did you learn from your first mentors in the leather community?

Master J. Tebias Perry (10:59)
I will say this, and this is true fucking story. Now after the first guy that I saw his balls in the gym and we dated, there were some serious pitfalls that I fell into as far as sexual deviancy, not me, but people in the community that would prey on younger guys, prey on Black guys.

You know, I was a flip-flopper for a little bit between top and bottom, between verse. And then for some reason, I just had a bad taste in my mouth about sex until I got a grip on who I was and what I liked singularly, not with everybody else and finding a desire and pleasing people based on their sexual needs, but my own. And then I truly found myself in that.

But with mentorship, the pitfalls that I fell into, I didn’t want others that were…

my grasp to experience what I experienced if I know that I can give them something for them to avoid that. So I wanted to pass on what I had learned and then I wanted it to be more structured. So I started journaling. started journaling and every time I would public speak, you know, one of my mentors said, oh my God, you know, this kid got a fucking book in him. He has a book in him and I can still hear them saying that.

And then it went on to me competing for different leather titles and leather contests. And I became more visible, more well known, which is an honor. You know, it’s an honor. And that’s how mentorship really shaped and helped me find out what my strengths were and how to use my weaknesses for my strengths. So yeah, that’s how it came about.

Trevor Hoppe (12:49)
You mentioned a Black gay man in those spaces and you’ve written a lot about that. What was that like bringing your whole self to that community?

Master J. Tebias Perry (13:00)
know, that’s something that I had to learn also through trial and error as well. Because I’ve heard white leather men say to other white men, white leather men and women that Black people do not look good in leather. Black men in dreads do not look good in leather. So in order to flex what I know,

Trevor Hoppe (13:18)
Mm.

Master J. Tebias Perry (13:27)
turn that anger into more. So I formed a class called People of Color Navigating White Dominated Spaces. This is one of the first classes that I taught. And it really showed me that we’re more alike than we are apart.

Trevor Hoppe (13:38)
Wow.

Trevor Hoppe (13:45)
What was your first IML like?

Master J. Tebias Perry (13:47)
That’s a good question. Actually, my first IML, I did with two of my best friends, Leon and Sean, and we knew nothing about the magnitude of IML.

queen friend made I wanted something like a kilt and there are pictures of me on my Facebook and this thing was with it was with what’s the drag queen used the glue like the

the glue gun, glued me

a kilt together and you know when you put it on my god my chest and my arms were looking good and as we were going to the onyx party back then the kilt was literally falling apart piece by piece. mean like it was in like slats the little slats like this long and it was like each slap was falling apart but I learned so much about how

you know, we think that because we’re younger, we’re invincible. Everyone wants us. And I was just the laughing stock of all of it. I really was looking back now because this thing was falling apart. And it was was hilarious. But the first, my first IML like,

Trevor Hoppe (14:49)
Aww.

Master J. Tebias Perry (15:01)
2005, 2006, it was a mess. A lot of good sex, but horrible experience with my wardrobe. Horrible. Big time. Big time. Big time.

Trevor Hoppe (15:11)
Aw, Mordra malfunction. I love that.

What do you think, why do people travel from far and wide to come to leather events? this is, IML is one of them, but there are many, leather events around the world even. What do people make the pilgrimage for?

Master J. Tebias Perry (15:31)
People come for various reasons, Trev. They come for sex. They come for the brotherhood. They come for the camaraderie. They come for friendships. They come for the debauchery of it all. So, I mean, for me, it’s become more purposeful because now that someone who I mentor is currently

IML Someone who I mentor now is IML. And that is for me looking outside into myself,

Trevor Hoppe (15:57)
That’s cool.

Master J. Tebias Perry (16:03)
some things and qualities and fixings that you poured into one person. And to see that work come out into full fruition is a powerful fucking thing. And I mean, it’s really difficult to explain. Because I mean, I’m such a humble person. And to look at that,

look at that from the outside in. It’s like, that is a huge fucking thing to do. And to be a part of, is to be a part of something that you see from one point and now it’s here. And they’re representing leather on a global scale. So it’s major for me. It’s a big, accomplishment.

Trevor Hoppe (16:46)
What was that feeling like when they became IML?

Master J. Tebias Perry (16:50)
I was on the front row right behind the judges and pretty much the staff. I know the staff because all of us are brothers and friends and all this shit. And when Jamal won, it was just, and I jumped up like I was at my grandma’s church and it was.

It was a spiritual moment for me. And for them, he’s like shocked and couldn’t move. you know, all of my friends around me are trying to run and grab me like, my God, we did it. And it takes a team to make sure that they’re polished, they’re boosted they understand this, the bigger picture. And when they get it, Trev, they just get it. It’s like…

It’s like the little ducklings in the lake. know, the mother teaches them how to swim and you push them out there and it’s just so liberating and it’s major.

Trevor Hoppe (17:43)
wonder if there are similar kinds of structures in the leather world as like maybe in like the ball scene where there are kind of like familial relationships like a drag mom I assume there’s probably similar kind of relationships in the leather world of parenting and nurturing. You mentioned mentorship, but it sounds like it’s even beyond mentorship.

Master J. Tebias Perry (18:01)
It is similar because I’m a huge fan of Pose All of us have watched Pose and seen the houses, but I also know some of the house members here in Atlanta. And it is sort of similar. You you take, take in kids under your wings and you bring them into a space where they’re safe and you teach them everything that you know and what was pointed to you. So I think that there is a lot of similarity with leather.

with leather mentoring as well as the ballroom So I think a lot of ways that it is a lot of similarities

Trevor Hoppe (18:38)
It’s great, because often we have to rely on our chosen family as queer people because our biological family is not always there for us. find that familial bonding in that space? Do you have a close relationship with your biological family? How do you think that factors into your notion of family?

Master J. Tebias Perry (19:00)
And I’ve mentioned this publicly too, and I’m not ashamed to say it, that I, unfortunately, after my mom’s death and even before that, I’ve never really had a relationship with one of my siblings. And even after my mom passed, honestly, I haven’t really talked to them since that point. And that’s been since 2016. And I have friends that I’ve known for 35 years that I talk to every single day.

So, you know, my chosen family and family is what you make it. And it goes back to, you know, blood is thicker than water. And I just really don’t fuck with that because it’s so foreign to me now as an adult and as someone who’s almost 60 years old that I know friends better than I know my family. So I have a close relationship with my family, but with my sibling, I don’t, unfortunately.

now that I’ve found myself and who I am.

Trevor Hoppe (19:56)
A lot of young people are very excited to get into kink and leather but they struggle to find the entry point that’s safe and, and welcoming What tips would you have for young people to kind of venture out?

Master J. Tebias Perry (20:11)
that validation. The second thing is get behind someone that you can trust And number three, always look for a safe…

experiences. That is what’s most important because that groundwork will keep you at a level where you are socially aware of who you’re around at all times. So make sure you’re not looking for any validation. Get behind someone who know what the fuck they’re talking about and that you trust and that you trust and always, always get consent. Always get consent to touch, to feel, to explore.

and make sure that it’s fun and it doesn’t hurt. Well, it hurts at first, but make sure it doesn’t hurt permanently. So those three things, I don’t want to give so much legwork on what people need to do because that’s not really my ministry. I really am all about all of us exploring and finding what makes us tick and what makes us the best version of ourselves.

Trevor Hoppe (21:12)
I’m curious, know that changes over our life course, Some of it is about exploring and some of it changes over time. How do you feel like your desires have changed over time?

Master J. Tebias Perry (21:23)
desires for sex specifically? yeah, I want it. I want it. I want it as often.

Trevor Hoppe (21:26)
Yeah. Yeah.

Master J. Tebias Perry (21:30)
I’m always open, but I think I’m still exploring a lot, if not more so that I’ve always done.

I’m a creature of habit where I like what I like and I don’t apologize for it and it’s if it’s a flip-flop moment it’s a flip-flop moment which happens on Christmas those are the three times when I’m three times that you know what I’m talking about those are the three times of the year when I want to be treated like that but every other time

Trevor Hoppe (21:53)
Uh-huh.

Master J. Tebias Perry (21:59)
I want to do the most sickest, safest, wildest And I have a huge closet and a lot of shit in my arsenal. So that’s what I’ll say about that.

Trevor Hoppe (22:10)
I am not in the leather community, but I am attracted to the sexuality of it all, of course. And part of the reason I find, I guess, just speaking from my own self, I’m a little intimidated sometimes by like the long list of things that guys are into or not into,

Do you think it’s best to find someone when you’re starting out that aligns perfectly with what you’re into or that there are big gaps?

Master J. Tebias Perry (22:34)
I would not focus on just one person in your exploration. You have to try out many different cars to know which one you want to drive. I like SUVs, but I like sports cars as well. I like pickup trucks, but I like motorcycles as well.

I mean, you have to make sure that you specifically explore and learn what you enjoy because no one is going to give you everything you need. And if you’re in this box

all of us need to get out and explore and find what is specifically and what is useful.

Trevor Hoppe (23:13)
A lot of guys are centered on the apps, Grindr, Scruff, et cetera. Do you think you can find sexual connection there?

Master J. Tebias Perry (23:21)
God, I think that is exactly, I’m not gonna say it is the only point, but I think it is a good point as long as you’re being safe about that because with so much over sexual stimulation come risk of all types. So I think it’s a good way to start as long as you make sure you know what you’re getting into and explore. I’ve always said that and I’ve said it publicly.

as well, you know, don’t hinder yourself because just when you stop trying to learn more, you’re 60 years old and you wake up and certain things are not working like they used to. And you’ve got this gray hair on the top and the bottom and it’s harder to go out on the hunt. So I would say explore, explore, explore. There’s this thing. I used to be a member of Onyx.

which is the largest leather organization in the world. And their motto, is educate, empower, and explore. If everyone could learn that and practice that, the leather community would be a perfect template for everyone to start in, even heteros. mean, to do that is everything. So just…

I would tell everyone that’s listening to you, that’s following me, is to make sure you explore to know specifically, if not multiple things that you like and enjoy in the bedroom

Trevor Hoppe (24:50)
I just want to, I want to kind of hone in on that because I think that’s the sticking point for a lot of people is that they don’t always know what is going to turn them on in the moment. And some things can be quite, things, some things you don’t want to do with a stranger like restraint, for example, it’s kind of a challenging idea to do that on a first time meetup. How do you.

How do you know what turns you on?

Master J. Tebias Perry (25:14)
Well, for me, for me, the stimulation is the true barometer for me. and I’m a voyeur, I’m really a voyeur something turns me on when I don’t want to take my eyes off of it, or I want to get into it. So I know that it could be eyes, it could be

lips. It could be a big ass. It could be big legs or it could be a big dick. So I know what turns me on because I’ve gone through the trial and the error of what works specifically for me. Not judging anyone else, but I know when I see it or when I hear it. So it just comes with experience, right? I mean, it’s just, yeah. And I’m not saying go and explore

with a random person that you haven’t taken the time to get to know or that you don’t trust, but all of us have done pickup play. All of us have met people on apps and had a absolutely wonderful time. So you’re not really gonna know things unless you really get out there and do some practicing.

Trevor Hoppe (26:18)
Practice, practice, practice. That’s what I always say. Absolutely. Hopefully, yes, we’re striving for perfection. Absolutely. Never getting there, but trying.

Master J. Tebias Perry (26:21)
It makes it perfect, yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (26:30)
mentioned voyeurism that has kind of a stigma attached to it. It’s this, uh, thing that a lot of us enjoy. think we want many, many, many men watch porn. So in some level we’re, being voyeuristic in that way, but a recent guest kind of transformed my understanding of it by explaining kind of what it did for them. So I’m, I’m interested to hear again.

A little bit more from you on this out of voyeurism?

Master J. Tebias Perry (26:53)
get an experience that I can replay in my mind for weeks, for months, for years. And God forbid if I write it in my journal, I get to really play it over and over and over. So I can sit back and watch hardcore fucking or fisting. it gives me the opportunity

to watch something, but then I’m physically not part of the experience. don’t know where it came from, but it turns me on so much where I can watch a fisting scene or a double fisting scene

And I think what it is is it’s the heroism in that I never thought was possible. Seeing two, seeing two arms in a.

person just in sheer can still hear the sounds like in my head now and I can just get off on it like instantly. know this is a bit much but I’m gonna tell you anyway, my favorite moments are first thing in the close my eyes,

Trevor Hoppe (27:49)
Please.

Master J. Tebias Perry (27:55)
and go into an experience at CLAW or IML or MAL watching the scene with two guys fisting one guy at the same time. And I could literally almost tell.

it and satisfying myself. So voyeurism is something that it keeps me safe in a lot of ways because I do love pickup play, don’t get me wrong, but voyeurism for me, it works for me. The climax that I need and the experience So voyeurism, it’s everything. It’s everything. I love it.

Trevor Hoppe (28:33)
Yeah, you know, honestly, it’s one of those kind of, I guess you could say a fetish that I hadn’t thought a whole lot about until a conversation with a previous guest where he really transformed my understanding and thinking about, for one, as you say, it can be safe where you can watch a scene play out that you’re maybe not ready to experience it or even you don’t want to be a part of physically, but you find erotic. So it can be a form of sex education. And I found that like,

kind of transformative in my understanding. was like, yeah. And of course the erotic charge of it all is more obvious, I think, the kind of, is such a banal word about it, but the kind of, I don’t know, learning aspect to it and appreciation and.

Master J. Tebias Perry (29:10)
Thank

Add to that Trev, I’ve been, of course, my voyeurism looks different sometimes more so than everyone’s. When I’m in a voyeuristic state, I all of my clothes off and be tucked away in a corner somewhere, the people I’m looking at possibly can’t see me and I’m just going to town on myself.

This is a one man fucking show that I just thoroughly enjoy and I can replay it. I can have whatever in my hands or, you know, bound myself, put a gag in my mouth and go to town on myself. And then I can replay it again and again. So, I mean, it’s just, it’s this whole thing. But I’ve also, to add to that, I’ve been invited into scenes

from But sometimes I’ll bow out, no, I just want to sit and watch, you just enjoy yourself. So it goes both It’s sort of pick up basketball. It’s like, you know, coach put me in, coach put me in, but you know, sometimes I don’t want to be sidelines. But it’s major. is, it’s one of my

Trevor Hoppe (30:23)
Yeah, you’re happy on the bench.

Master J. Tebias Perry (30:29)
more perfected crafts.

Trevor Hoppe (30:30)
I guess I wanted to also talk potentially about power play because I, or power exchange, I guess would be the more like appropriate term in the leather community. What, what’s your relationship to power exchange?

Master J. Tebias Perry (30:43)
Power exchange for me is I’m taking someone’s power, they’re loaning it to me, and I choose to give it back or not. That’s the negotiated part where if I have someone that’s in service or collared or I own them as property or a slave, they’re giving me their power and their trust. So that’s synonymous to me. Power is trust. And they loan it to me.

And I choose to give it back to you where I have taught you some things and I give you back a bigger power. So sometimes I give up my power, my birthday or Christmas. That’s my only level of power that I want to give to others. So that’s what power exchange is to me. And I mean, it’s not something that I, that I practice often because I do love pickup play. I do love anticipatory service.

Trevor Hoppe (31:26)
Yeah.

Master J. Tebias Perry (31:41)
I like weekend service, but I’ve had boys, girls before, but that’s just not something constant where I want to be in dynamic MS or DS relationship constantly.

Trevor Hoppe (31:55)
I guess I’m just for people who are in my own edification, like does the master in your name, that, so that does not necessarily reflect a commitment to a certain kind of play or is it? I’m just curious.

Master J. Tebias Perry (32:08)
well, people get mastery in different ways. People get mastery honorifics from the service that they’ve done, the people that are in their, from their down line to their up line that recognizes their hard work. And they bestow covers onto them, which are the Muir caps. And I’ve earned three of those from different people in the community. And note that

We, as people in the community who are influencers, I would never call myself a leader in the community in Atlanta. The community gets to bestow these honorifics onto us. And anyone who says, I’m a leader in the Charlotte leather community, they’re not really a leader. They’re self-appointed because this work that we do, it is really specific work.

And it’s not something of grandeur and self-seeking It’s work that the community has recognized. And we get these honorifics as sir, as daddy, as master from various people in the community. So that’s how it’s come about. But one of my mentors bestowed my Master Cap onto me

So I’ve been fairly a new master. So mastery can come in many different ways, from education to having people in service that recognizes your work.

Trevor Hoppe (33:34)
That’s fascinating. I did not know that system of honorifics.

Is it hierarchical? Like is there a level above Master? Like I’m just really kind of think people might be curious to know.

Master J. Tebias Perry (33:45)
well to me, leadership is not about you being in charge of anyone, but it’s you being in charge of the love and care that you give for the people that you serve. I look at that.

Even people call me a leader all the time and I say, no, no, no, no, no, no. I give servant leadership. I give servant leadership. I’m a servant of my community and I have to pull it back. that’s, it’s a grounding thing because when you are,

in our leather journey, people call you Master Tebias And, you know, once upon a time they called me Sir Tebias This is a honor that’s bestowed to us and it’s not something that should be taken lightly. And it’s not a lifestyle, it’s a life. It really is a life that we give to the people that we serve. And that’s, that’s just the way I look at it. I look at the community as people that I serve and I teach and I educate and

being called master is something that is, it’s a huge honor. And I take a real life responsibility in honoring the people that I serve.

Trevor Hoppe (34:56)
I love that. That’s, I mean, it’s beautiful. I, I literally, I did not know that system. So I really appreciate your explanation of it. I’m sure people listening will find it helpful as well.

Master J. Tebias Perry (35:05)
hierarchy

really. There’s, I mean, yeah, a sir, a daddy, a master, we’re all servants, you know, in one way or another. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (35:07)
That makes more sense to me now the way you explained it there. Yeah.

Yeah,

I love that. It’s really beautiful. I want to talk about your book and mentorship and what, what, what

What did you want the book to do and how have you seen that play out on the ground?

Master J. Tebias Perry (35:30)
It’s been so many different things. The book started out with one way. wanted to, like I said earlier, I wanted mentorship to be something that was a succession plan to make sure people did not fall into the pitfalls that I fell into. So I wanted to put something together that was very subject matter specific that you didn’t have to read the whole

500 page book just to get the gist of what I was saying. So I started out with writing certain chapters of subject matters that I know I have proficiency in. And I wrote the chapters down and I just started talking about it. I just started talking about each subject that I knew about and that I had experience in. And I wrote on them until I felt that they were full enough with the information, I had the tools.

for someone else to use. what really taught me and what really made this book

special is understanding the difference between A disagreement and disrespect because that is a huge fucking difference. as I moved into leadership roles, I’ve understood that more clear. We can disagree all day long, but when that disagreement turns into disrespect, I’m going to step away.

Trevor Hoppe (36:38)
Hmm.

Master J. Tebias Perry (36:57)
before I do something that I’ll regret and you surely will regret. you know, I’ve just, it’s a mastery in learning the art of listening to understand, not listening to respond. And I found so much in writing this And I couldn’t have done it without having those tools from Master Bruce, from Master Lily.

and other mentors that I look up to in the community. So all of them are wrapped up into all of these pages that are presented publicly now in other mentorships.

Trevor Hoppe (37:36)
the experience been with people receiving the book?

Master J. Tebias Perry (37:39)
my friends were like, we’re going to go on tour. We’re going to do a five city tour.

right after M.A.L. in D.C. We did D.C., we did Baltimore, we did Philly, we did New York. after M.A.L. we sold all the books, all the t-shirts. It is a labor of love. receiving the book everywhere I go, everywhere I go, Trevor.

someone is asking me something about chapter four, about chapter 16, about the Butterfly Effect, about the forward that Vince Andrews wrote. And Vince Andrews is a good friend of mine. He has several bodies of work out there. And I think it’s been received very well. I’m really shocked and I’m proud of it all at the same time. So I’m just, it’s emotional. mean, it’s emotional because

leather mentorship being my baby, even me wearing a leather dress, gloves. It’s a powerful thing because, you know, the masculinity of the book says a lot with a man, a leather man wearing a leather dress. So it’s just all around powerful.

Trevor Hoppe (38:51)
I noticed that on your Instagram I was kind of perusing through and you definitely play with gender a little bit. think some challenged by the rigidity of kind of old guard masculinity in the leather scene. that seems to be changing. What do you see as the relationship between masculinity and the leather community?

How do you make sense of that?

Master J. Tebias Perry (39:14)
as long as you show up as yourself in a dress, heels, or in the most Tom of Tom of Finland that you could wear, as long as you show up authentically as yourself, that’s really all that matters. So as I’ve gotten older

My ideas of masculinity has changed where now I can be in a 47 pound leather skirt and feel just as masculine as wearing a tight pair of ball-crushing leather pants. So I look at masculinity as something that is inner more so than outward now. So I look at my comfort level of how I show up.

as long as it’s authentically myself, that’s all that really matters. So I look more of the inward expression of myself than outward expression.

that’s all that matters.

Trevor Hoppe (40:07)
As a black man, how does that shape your relationship to masculinity, particularly thinking in the leather community?

Master J. Tebias Perry (40:13)
religion, Trevor, has fucked us up. Religion has given us this scale of what masculinity looks like and what it shouldn’t look like. Notice I didn’t say what it doesn’t look like, but what it should look like. And religion has given us this standard. Put kink on top of that and layer

the masculinity and femininity and all of So I would say do some soul searching and find yourself no matter what it looks like and just be free and have fun

men wore dresses in the Bible before. So it changes up and down. You know, this new guard thing that people are doing now, as old as I am, I’ve embraced it. And in order for us to still capture the ear of the younger guard as someone who’s rooted in old guard, we have to

embrace that. Or, unfortunately, we will be left behind. I mean, the world looks different than 1997, 2000s. So we have to embrace what’s to come.

Trevor Hoppe (41:17)
Mm-hmm.

Master J. Tebias Perry (41:23)
Like we had to embrace what’s to come. They have to embrace us and we have to embrace them as well. So it’s a give and take.

Trevor Hoppe (41:30)
Hmm.

Yeah. Change can be hard. Obviously I can only imagine, the conversations happening within IML about all that must be spirited. I’m sure. But I wanted to make sure I got to the topic of the podcast.

best gay sex and understand a little bit about what you think for you. What does it take to have the best gay sex?

Master J. Tebias Perry (41:51)
The best gay sex. I would say make sure that you have the right kind of lube and make sure that you are working within your limits. That’s the best advice I could give because I mean some people are conquerors when they know that the mountain that they want to climb, that that mountain is too big for them. So lots of lube.

and know what your limits are. Know what your limits are.

Trevor Hoppe (42:19)
I like it. Amen to that. Absolutely.

when you look back at, mean, obviously many experiences. What do you think the qualities for you are of those encounters that were like, you’re like, man, that was the best.

Master J. Tebias Perry (42:35)
Going back to a little bit of power exchange. Whenever I’m in those three times a year, those three times of the year, I do like to flip-flop. And the most enjoyable part of that is for me to let go.

but because of public scrutiny and us putting ourselves on the chopping block in a way to be socially responsible, I have to be cognizant of shit that I say. I still do. I do. So I bear that responsibility. But the best way for me to reach that level of vulnerability with that person.

3000 years and I feel so free whenever I’m experiencing that and it has to unfortunately or fortunately come from the most masculine experience from the dom side of them to me that I can get and it looks

It’s like I’m just being slutted out. It looks almost like I’m being slutted out because I’m in service as a dom so much in play and in different scenes. Those three times means a lot to me. And when I want it, I fucking want it and I want all of it. I’m just saying. Sex looks like for me is I want to be dominated.

Trevor Hoppe (43:37)
Haha.

Amen to that.

Master J. Tebias Perry (44:01)
I’m

Trevor Hoppe (44:02)
Who can relate?

With kind of role play scenarios, when you talked about being slutted out, right? Does it ever start to feel scripted? And if so, how do you like shake that?

Master J. Tebias Perry (44:17)
I’ve never looked at leather and pickup plate as role play. Though with some people I’ve heard it, I’ve seen it, that this is a role for them. This is authentically who I am. Like me going into a scene.

what is part of sex and the words in the exchange of dialogue that we have. This is authentically that I found who this person really is and this is exactly who I am. When I’m just consensually or when I have my arm up to my elbow in your ass, this is authentically who I am. So I don’t find

my description as role-play. I really, really don’t. So the dom, dom sub, daddy boy, master slave.

dynamic, this is exactly who the fuck I am. It’s nothing about the role play of it. Even my aftercare, even my aftercare that I give after a scene, they’re like, you know, I’m fine, I’m fine. This is, and I’m bringing them down off of a ledge. This is the caring person that I am or the sexual deviant that I am, the sadistic fucker that I am.

This is authentically who I am behind these nerdy glasses. So I just, I don’t see any forms of that in what I do. No.

Trevor Hoppe (45:47)
Yeah. No, that’s really helpful. I appreciate that so much because people outside the community, I think that will help them understand what it’s like to be part of the community that it’s for some people may be role play, but as you say, it’s not necessarily that it can be something else too. So I really appreciate that clarification. I always like to end with my favorite.

segment, is called Sordid Lives and Untold Tales or SLUT for short. What’s the sluttiest thing you ever did?

Master J. Tebias Perry (46:17)
ever done was actually in Berlin at laboratory. Have you been?

Trevor Hoppe (46:22)
well that makes sense.

I have not myself, but many of my friends have.

Master J. Tebias Perry (46:26)
my God, it is a, it is literally a sea, a sea of slings and debauchery of men. And

as many people as I could. And this just happened.

Bye.

Trevor Hoppe (46:42)
Nice.

Master J. Tebias Perry (46:43)
I just went around randomly putting my dick in every single hole.

I think what was most liberating from it because you when you show up in these spaces you don’t know who’s going to be attracted to you if it’s mutual or if it’s not but obviously I was the pick of the litter for that night but I it was just so liberating just to anyway that was the sluttiest thing that I’ve ever done was just put my guards down and fuck as many people as I could yeah

at the Love Talk.

Trevor Hoppe (47:19)
Yeah, it’s like the opposite

of the, it’s the opposite of the no loads refuse bottom. You’re like the no hole refuse top. love it. Yes, I’ve heard, I’ve heard of the horse. Well, yeah. If people, I would be fascinated to go for real. It would be, it just like sociologically I’d be very fascinated.

Master J. Tebias Perry (47:26)
Horse market. Horse market. It’s like horse market.

take you to one.

Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (47:41)
If people want to learn more about you and your book, where can they find you online?

Master J. Tebias Perry (47:45)
on my Instagram you can also find me on Facebook under J Tebias Perry. Don’t send me a friend request unless you inbox me first because I will delete them. So no random friend requests. And you can also find me

Trevor Hoppe (48:00)
Of course, yeah, Instagram is

good for that.

Master J. Tebias Perry (48:03)
Yeah, you can also find me under Bulge Features, International House of Bulge on Instagram.

Trevor Hoppe (48:11)
Fabulous. Well, I hope I see you at IML.

Master J. Tebias Perry (48:14)
It’s going.

Trevor Hoppe (48:15)
I

Master J. Tebias Perry (48:16)
I gotta show you the ropes. I gotta show you the ropes Thank you so much for the body of work that you do for the community. And thank you so much for having me today. Thank you.

Trevor Hoppe (48:18)
I can’t

Fabulous, I look forward to it.

likewise. Thank you. I got to know your work and I’m obsessed. So I’m excited to see and follow your career.

Trevor Hoppe (48:36)
That’s our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. Always grateful. And remember, if you’re thinking, wouldn’t it be great to talk to me about your sex life, kind of hash out some issues that you’ve been facing, my services as a sex coach are designed to help you identify and overcome those obstacles that are standing between you and your best sex life. Find out more on my website, thebestgaysex.net.

Till next time.

OVERVIEW:

What does it mean to be a man? For many of us gay boys, masculinity wasn’t a choice—it was something we were punished for lacking. From childhood bullying to family silence, we grew up navigating a world that demanded we toughen up. But what if masculinity isn’t all bad? What if we can reclaim the good parts without the toxic baggage. This week, I’m joined by sexual health advocate and content creator Nolberto Gonzalez, who’s spent his career helping gay men cultivate pleasure, confidence, and consent. We reflect on our queer boyhoods, the pressures of masculinity, and how we can redefine it for ourselves. Plus, Nolberto spills on his first gangbang as a bottom—because, of course, we do.

TRANSCRIPT:

Trevor Hoppe (00:09)
Hey, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Trevor Hoppe. Today’s episode is about masculinity, a topic close to my heart, not in the way you might think. Like many effeminate gay men, I grew up a little, how do you say, limp-wristed, a little light in the loafers. I had this big goofy gran as a child and a penchant for playing with my neighbor’s Barbies, admittedly.

rather than my own Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, although I did like the turtles, not gonna lie. But when puberty hit my classmates, my happy life descended into a nightmare of bullying and beatings. My classmates called me the F-sler long before I even knew what that word meant or that I had something called a sexuality. I sometimes say that I came out at age 14, but that’s…

a little bit of a lie, like lots of effeminate boys, I didn’t really have the luxury of staying closeted or coming out. It was written on my face. Today’s guests may have grown up thousands of miles away in Puebla, Mexico, in a totally different cultural context. But we share a common experience of growing up as a little queer boy. Noberto Gonzalez.

is a sexual health advocate, activist, turned content creator who has made promoting healthy sexuality his mission in life. For over a decade, he has led erotic hands-on workshops tailored and designed to gay men called Sessiones Explicitas.

And in today’s episode, we pause to reflect not just on those toxic elements of masculinity that made our childhoods so traumatic, but we also brainstorm how can we salvage and recuperate those positive aspects of masculinity, and they do exist, on our journey towards healing. Let’s listen in.

Trevor Hoppe (02:22)
Nolberto Gonzalez, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast.

Nolberto (02:26)
Thank you for inviting me. I feel like very honored because I always like to talk with you. Our conversations are always fun, are always interesting, are always deep. And they have always this personal ingredient that is not just about theory, even if we talk about theory. And that’s what I think. It’s fabulous about you. One of the…

Trevor Hoppe (02:33)
It is a pleasure.

Nolberto (02:54)
hundreds of fabulous things to you all. So thank you.

Trevor Hoppe (02:59)
Absolutely. We met long ago

back in 2007 at a conference in Pueblo where you are from. So can you tell viewers and listeners a little bit about kind of situate them where you’re from, how, where you grew up and, where you became like a little sexual being.

Nolberto (03:03)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, I was born in Puebla, which is a very, not a very, very, very small town now. It kind of became big. Two hours far from Mexican city. It’s a very conservative place. It’s a very Catholic place. And I started to get involved in sexuality issues more like in the equivalent of high school.

you and when I started my university studies. First I was interested in sexual health in general and then my path went to HIV prevention and sexual and reproductive rights and then I started to do some work with my own body and my own image about trying to work some kind of some issues around about self-esteem in my image.

how I was perceiving myself and then I started to make some pictures of me every time with less and less clothes and then I started to make adult content and I was like balancing, know, like exploring both sides in parallel. Around these years, that’s when I met you, it was starting to get…

into conferences and seminars and all this academic stuff and in the meanwhile I was like exploring my sexual life first in terms of my body not just in terms of how it’s of how I saw my body or how I perceived my body but also in terms of perceptions of feelings you know like

physical pleasure and this elaborated pleasure. It’s a path that I have continued from all until today, of course.

Trevor Hoppe (04:59)
You, talked about growing up in Puebla and being a very Catholic conservative place. Tell me a little bit about what it was, let’s be like a little queer boy in a context like that.

Nolberto (04:59)
Wow.

Mm-hmm.

It’s very very very hard. It’s like like tons of people will be will feel related it’s a kind of a it’s kind of strange how lots of us have been like together in this feeling of isolation you know

Like being queer in a small place, in a place that is very conservative, in a place that doesn’t have a space for you. I remember, for example, every Christmas, I hated Christmas. And I remember Christmas as this period of time when I was punished for being myself in terms of…

you know, the big family gets reunited and here we don’t buy stuff for everyone because the families are huge in here. So we, we, what’s the word? We write down the names of everyone in little papers and then we give it. Okay. That’s, that’s it. So I remember that every year when someone got my name out of it,

Trevor Hoppe (06:09)
We call it a white elephant. Yeah. Yeah.

Nolberto (06:19)
They have a few weeks of course to buy a present for I remember that I was All the presents that I received were very very disappointed. Sometimes they were kind of cruel. I remember that I was like 10, 11 years old. And I received like a bucket of this kind of giant Lego that are for childs.

that I like in kindergarten because I was like, okay, these people doesn’t know me. And I remember when I was like 13 years, because I have always been like very, I have always you can always tell that I’m not heterosexual, course, you know? And that happens since I was a little child.

So I remember when I was like 30 years old, an uncle of mine gave me an image of Jesus Christ in a cross, like one meter tall. And I was like, okay, this is a statement, you know? And I was like, okay. And everyone else got phrases that they kind of liked because they have always…

Trevor Hoppe (07:19)
Wow.

Nolberto (07:28)
talked about what they wanted, they always talked about their desires, and they always talked about what they did, how they played, you know, as child, we give this information to the adults around us. But in some way, I always have this special treatment, and I was like, okay, I know these people just know me and just know how to treat me, how to face…

the reality that I’m putting on their faces. When I came out of the closet with my mom and my dad, I was like around 14. And it was a very, very interesting mental process that I went to because I’ve always been this anxious person. You know me. I have always been this…

Trevor Hoppe (08:07)
Wow.

Nolberto (08:21)
person with anxiety problems. So I was kind of into a girl during the school time when I was 40 years old. We were really into each other and my mom and my dad were very very excited about she and I being a couple or something.

Even if I was like kind of excited about this, I knew that eventually I would have relationship with voice. And in my head, there was a huge, huge horrible story about me giving the wrong message to my dad and mom that I was straight and then I had to keep on this lie during whole my life, you know?

And then I picture myself getting married for social pressure. And then I picture myself cheating on my wife and living with her with my kids to go out with some random guy in my 40s. You know, I was like a Mexican Telenorada. And then I, and the way I ended this Telenorada was coming out with them. I was like, all right, you know I’m into this girl.

Trevor Hoppe (09:17)
Yeah.

Nolberto (09:28)
I I have no issues with that. I hope you don’t have these issues with that, of course. But you have to know, you consider this warning if you want to, that eventually I will have, maybe I will have this with voice too. Sorry.

Trevor Hoppe (09:42)
what

a fascinating way to come out. You basically came out as like gay but with a girlfriend.

Nolberto (09:48)
Exactly.

And I’ve always had this openness. During some time of my life, I introduced myself as bisexual. Now I identify myself more as queer person. But politically, of course, surrounded by all these HIV calls, of course I’m politically…

Identified as a gay man because I have a lot of a lot of issues that crosses cross matter reality that it makes me configure myself as that but coming back to the Mexican telenovela of course, I that’s the way how I stopped it and That’s the way That that’s the way how I stopped how I stopped the telenovela

Trevor Hoppe (10:23)
That’s how it started? That’s how what?

Nolberto (10:29)
And that’s how I started to face my sexuality in terms of, so I think this is how, I think this is what life is about. Like facing the things as they are, maybe not trying to push things into categories or expectations or desires. And if I’m true to myself,

in this part, maybe the other will have the chance know if they accept me and to know if they there will be no false expectations.

Trevor Hoppe (11:08)
So

how did your parents react when you told them?

Nolberto (11:12)
was another telenovela. It was more like a serious and loud, and that was the second season. Of course, they sent me to the psychologist, of course. I went to the psychologist. She was a wonderful therapist. She was working in the clinic that we went to, you know, for the insurance we have for the government, you know, it’s a free clinic and they have a…

Trevor Hoppe (11:14)
Ha ha ha ha.

Nolberto (11:34)
access to she was very supportive and she was very wise and she helped me a lot to understand that there was nothing wrong with me. She said, and I have this tattooed in my said, I could help you to figure out if you’re into boys, into girls, into both. You have already figured it out. I can help you to figure it out.

Trevor Hoppe (11:46)
Good.

Nolberto (12:00)
figure out. If you are boys and girls and you feel some conflict inside of you, I can help you with that conflict but seems like you have this If you want you to talk to your parents about think I could help you to make a decision, to make what could be good, what could go

and you can make a decision. You already made that decision. I could help you to not feel guilty about who you are, not to feel less worthy for being who you are, but you have already done it. So it seems like now it’s your parents’ problem, and I’m very glad to help them if they want to come here. So I was like, I didn’t expect to get this reaffirmation of…

Trevor Hoppe (12:43)
Wow.

Nolberto (12:48)
Everyone out of my own head, you know, it was very life-changing absolutely that’s that changed my life and from this my I told that to my parents and The answer was so we’re gonna look for another psychologist and I was like Okay. Yes, they were like very committed to that cause They went to the psychologist they want to help but they

Trevor Hoppe (13:05)
no.

Yeah.

Nolberto (13:14)
they didn’t tell me. And you know the anxiety thing. Well, I decided, I think there should be a word in English. I decided unilateralmente, you know, like, just, I decided for everyone, I decided for everyone that I would never talk about it again until they come up with the issue.

And they telling me of course That they wouldn’t talk about the I would bring it to the conversation there was a six-year silence in my was a strange in my house during six years We didn’t talk about Anything more than the daily that’s when I started

high school and university. Of course it changed my dynamic with my family, of course. We were like strangers to each other. six years later, you know in Mexico we have this altars to the deaf people on November, Dia de Muertos. I started to work an association and we made an altar de Muertos, we made an ofrenda.

for LGBTQ people who committed suicide. We put it in a house of culture, it was a building in Puebla that works culture issues. It was kind of a demonstration. You get your group, they sign up and they show your

My mom went to that exhibition because it was a permanent exhibition and it was like a coincidence. I was there and she went into with my sister. And then that’s when she realized that I was doing all this stuff and that issue didn’t stop for me. did stop this conversation at home, of course, I didn’t…

Trevor Hoppe (14:59)
in those six years, yeah.

Nolberto (15:05)
I couldn’t stop working on it personally for a second. No one talked about it during the event, during the demonstration, you know? later at night, when I arrived home, my mom was washing I told him, well, thank you. So for what? Thank you for not making a serious scandal because that’s what you normally do.

you know, thank you for behaving, for being an adult. And she was you know, I haven’t talked to you about it and maybe this has been a mistake, but I want you to know that I’m open to talk about this every time you want to, that I been waiting for a chance.

from you to tell you that I’m more than okay with that, that I love you a lot, but I didn’t want to bring up to the conversation because I thought it would be invasive. And I was like.

You know, it was a very, it was a very strange feeling between reaffirmation, like, okay, I really wanted this. I can’t blame you for making this decision because in some way I made the same decision as you. In my mind, I was protecting you from the reality and in your mind, were protecting me from reality.

Trevor Hoppe (16:03)
Yeah.

Nolberto (16:26)
I can’t blame anyone but the culture. I just blame the culture. we kind of lost six years. After that six years, I had a full conversation with my parents. They told me they went to the psychologist and they loved her, but not as obsessed as I was with her. But then it happens that

they found a friend of them in the You know, there’s always this friend who has maybe not studies in some issues, but you give him, you give to that friend the ability, the title of that wise person, you know? There’s always someone who maybe didn’t study a lot, but there’s someone that you can fight, you know?

Trevor Hoppe (17:10)
Yeah.

Nolberto (17:17)
So they found this friend he has a very way He had a very strange advice for them but it worked in them and I’m thankful for they told me, we found this friend, we talked about this, we had just came out of the office with the psychologist like feeling kind of, you know, like confused and…

we saw this friend and he saw that we were like intrigued or worried and concerned basically what he told us was okay but would you love yourself right? He asked me

Yeah, but maybe people will treat him bad. Uh-huh. So, you love him, right? So you want him not to feel rejected on the outside. So you want to make for him a nice space at your home, right? And it was very effective for them. I think it maybe was a kind of a…

Maybe he speaks on their language. And I was trying to speak in another language, you know. Maybe it’s a thing between generations. Maybe it’s something that has to do a little bit more with maybe not trying to explain a lot of things, you know. And maybe that’s why it works on or on their generation.

Trevor Hoppe (18:18)
Yeah.

Nolberto (18:36)
I’m telling you to do this because I’m your mom and that’s enough reasons, you know? Maybe. Yes, exactly. And I’m very thankful for that. It took six years to get to this conversation, but I do feel bad about it. I feel that now my relationship with my father and my mother is great. I love my father. I love my mother with all my heart.

Trevor Hoppe (18:41)
Right? End of story.

Nolberto (19:00)
And they have known my boyfriends. They have known my spaces. Once I moved to Mexico City, they have came and visited. We have a very, very good relationship now. I’m still very far from my bigger family because I don’t think I…

Trevor Hoppe (19:18)
the uncle who gave you the cross

Nolberto (19:20)
Yes, I don’t know.

Trevor Hoppe (19:20)
you may be not so close with.

Nolberto (19:22)
Eventually some cousins come to me telling me that they had the courage to come out because I was the first one in the family. it also helped a lot that I was always this kind of nerdy, intelligent guy, you know, like a…

Trevor Hoppe (19:34)
That’s so great though

Nolberto (19:43)
this library mouse, have this expression in Spanish. And I was always that person. So I got good notes, was like, in my family I was known for the one that is going to be very, very intelligent, very successful and, know, smart and everything. So that was like…

the good quality that my family recognized about me and that in some way still put me on the map and I was very very happy that some of my cousins has reached me years before to tell me that okay I did it and thanks to you for doing something for not keep quiet

Remain silent.

Trevor Hoppe (20:30)
that’s really great that you were able to be that kind of trailblazer. certainly experienced the same similar thing in my family and my community where I was definitely ahead of the curve coming out at 14 also. So we share that experience. And I also, my parents took me to the psychologist also, and then the psychologist ended up being really supportive about the whole gay thing. It did not go the way that I expected it to or

probably the way my parents expected it to be honest. I’m grateful for that in retrospect. So.

Nolberto (21:04)
It’s

very interesting how we… Sorry, it’s just something that has just crossed my mind. There’s a lot of things that we need to change because it’s very unfair to put this pressure on 14 years old individuals. It’s very, very, very strange. And some things just have never changed. well, that was just the idea.

Trevor Hoppe (21:19)
yeah, I mean…

you’re growing up in Puebla, you’ve come out to your parents, but there’s the six years of silence. I presume probably your first sexual experiences probably took place sometime in those six years. Is that a fair assessment? What was that like?

Nolberto (21:45)
Yes, ah, that was very, very interesting, dad’s story.

I was in high school, I was 16 years old and I don’t know the age of the other guy but I’m very very sure he knew that I was underaged of course because they were in 2002-2003 to have internet in your house was a luxury you know

Trevor Hoppe (22:02)
Hmm.

Nolberto (22:17)
We had the cyber cafes. And you go around to computer per hour. And my God, feel like my teachers talking to me about the 60s. And then, and by that time, and at that moment in history.

Trevor Hoppe (22:28)
Right? It feels like a way, way back again. Yeah.

Nolberto (22:36)
We didn’t have apps in our cell phones. There was chat rooms. There was gay.com. And there was Latin America category. And there was gay men in black color. I remember that I was just… I went there. There was a cyber cafe out of my… just crossing the street.

Trevor Hoppe (22:45)
Yes.

Nolberto (23:00)
from my school. A preparatoria. Everyone is underage in preparatoria. So you do the math. So the guy who was in charge of the place, some time, know, some day I was like chatting with a random person because you have no information but the nickname. And yes, of course. Yeah. I think telenovela runs through my veins because I’m Mexican.

maybe and then in the momentary and then i receive a message and you insert the music of your favorite and then i’m the guy next to you with a i don’t know with a red shirt and i was like

Trevor Hoppe (23:25)
my gosh, that’s…

Nolberto (23:37)
You know.

Trevor Hoppe (23:40)
Whoa.

Nolberto (23:40)
I was very very

happy because I really like that guy. I found him very attractive. He had this nerdy look. He had a beard. He had a wonderful belly. He was cute. He was really really really cute. And I don’t remember how.

Trevor Hoppe (23:45)
Yeah?

Nolberto (24:02)
but sometimes I had to go to school on Saturdays for some signatures. Actually, I don’t remember clearly, but sometimes we had to go to school on Saturdays. And most of the things around the school were closed, and you have a lack of structure on these Saturdays. So I decided that I was…

trying to kill some time at the cafe and it was closed and I was getting out of the building where it was and I ran into that guy. I like I’m just gonna check some things in there so I will not be open today I’m sorry but if you want to join me to get these things you know upstairs just you and I was like alright that’s it yeah

Of course it was unprotected. Yes, it was unprotected. Of course I was yes. And I’m talking about 2002. It was way before prep. It was way before my first HIV test. It was way before a lot of things that I know now. And it was way before a lot of things that I consider. There are like a…

like the non-negotiable things that I have put myself in my sexual life. But there are things that I have solved later. In that time, I wanted to have this reaffirmation experience, you know, because I knew I didn’t feel pressured about there’s some experience that you’re losing that you have to, that you need to have now. I was like…

I wanted to prove myself that I was attractive to someone. I wanted to prove myself that someone would like to have this interaction with me. I didn’t want a boyfriend. a relationship. I didn’t want a happily ever after story. I wanted to feel desired. And that’s what I got. It was a sloppy yes.

It was it was not really really good He had one is the most gorgeous sticks I have ever seen in my life. I remember clearly

and it felt great. But yeah, it was the idea. But I have no regrets.

Trevor Hoppe (26:27)
What more can you ask for, for a first time?

Nolberto (26:28)
Yes, exactly.

I would have liked to have a little more preparation for that. You know, I have always been this very open person about things. So I wish I was the kind of person who would always carry condoms, for example. But I didn’t come up with the idea until that day.

So I was like, all right, I would have changed that to feel safer, to feel more secure, and to enjoy a little bit more of the experience, yes, because I was worried some days before, of course, I was very, very in terms of the experience and expectations, was absolutely satisfied, five stars.

Trevor Hoppe (27:14)
I love that. I love to hear that. that’s an amazing first time experience. I’m glad it was positive and fulfilling. Do you remember some of those early sexual experiences maybe that didn’t go so well that kind of you learn some lessons the hard way?

Nolberto (27:30)
yes, of course. And I had time to think about it. I had time, but there’s always so many things. The one that I have talked about the most, this year, some friends and I were talking about how the traditionally attractive people, know,

Trevor Hoppe (27:34)
Yeah.

Nolberto (27:50)
Egemonico? What’s the word in English for Egemonico? Egemonic? No. Egemonic, yeah. We have like this kind of… I don’t know. I won’t call it an idea because it’s more than an idea, but I won’t say it’s evidence. But well, you will get it as long as I start there. Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (27:55)
Hegemonic,

mainstream beauty norms is that is that

Nolberto (28:14)
Most of the time, the people that have the most of these attractive traditional features, most of the time, it looks like they seem to only need that and not to put some effort, not to put creativity. I’m just putting in here my attractive, my wonderful nose, my huge spectacles, you know, my muscles.

Trevor Hoppe (28:29)
Alright.

Nolberto (28:37)
And because I’m the ugly one, I’m putting all the effort, you know? So, we have this saying that handsome people have horrible thugs, basically. I remember in kind of these days, I was in Manhattan chatting in that siberica. Well, I had to go to another siberica.

So I was chatting with a guy that lived like two blocks from me, from where I was living. And it was this beautiful, traditionally beautiful, handsome man, very white skinned, you know, Mexico is a very racist country. Don’t let them try to convince you of the contrary. Very white skin, green eyes, a wonderful nose, very nice body, everything.

He sent me a message, hey how are you? Let’s meet. And I was like, I would gladly do, but I have to present a test in my school, so I don’t have time now. Can we do tomorrow? And his answer was shocking. I wish I could translate it fully. He was like, no, no, no, it’s not that I’m like you. I don’t like you, I’m just horny.

And I was like, how very down are you? know? And, course, yes, of course, I felt offended. Yes, of course, but I decided that that was going to be the only interaction. A few weeks later, he writes to me again, and I was like, oh, that was the guy who was rude with me.

Trevor Hoppe (29:48)
you

Fuck off!

As you should.

Nolberto (30:16)
And he invited me again. And I went.

Trevor Hoppe (30:20)
yeah, you capes.

Nolberto (30:21)
Because I always learned the

hard way. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I always learned the hard way. Yes, I don’t learn. I love to. I love the performance of learning even though I don’t learn. But if I enjoy the process, what’s the problem? So I decided to go with him. I entered to his bedroom with my backpack. I turn around to put my backpack.

Trevor Hoppe (30:26)
up in there.

Yeah.

Nolberto (30:48)
on the floor and started to get undressed. And he is on the bed with his niece in here, know, like showing his book, like, now do it. And like sniffing his, opening his bottle of poppers, you know. And I was like, okay, your mother ready, baby. I was trying to…

Trevor Hoppe (30:57)
Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Nolberto (31:09)
I don’t know, it wasn’t even my heart inside him. And he came. And I was like, oh. And I was like, what a waste of time.

Trevor Hoppe (31:16)
Uh-huh.

we have this song that’s from the 50s or 60s, I think here in the United States. It’s like, if you want to be happy for the rest of your life, never make a pretty woman your wife. And I feel like it’s kind of the same, same idea here, which is like hot guys are very pretty to look at, but sometimes they can be really fun, obviously, but they’re not always in it.

Nolberto (31:35)
Me- yeah!

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Trevor Hoppe (31:45)
You know, they don’t have to bring as much to the table in terms of skills and talent sometimes. on that body. Stop relying on that body is what, you know, the RuPaul expression. Yeah. So I feel that.

Nolberto (31:49)
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Exactly Yes, yes sometimes

Yeah, and I think it’s it’s very important to think that I always try to to to bring to myself What I think about other people? Even if I even if I Even if I’m telling you this story about this guy who was very very rude relying in some qualities of his body

I always try to think, have I some time behaved similarly? Do I have some behavior sometimes that may look like the same? And I think that it’s very important to think that maybe not about physical features, but I do rely on some qualities that I have. And I know…

that sometimes I have been abusive in that terms, of course. Yeah, I think I have if you want to change something, you have to acknowledge it first. So I was like, yes, exactly. And I’ve always tried to make this intellectual effort, but okay, there are some moments, there have been some experiences when I have tried to…

Trevor Hoppe (33:00)
You gotta start with yourself.

Nolberto (33:14)
take advantage of something or being unfair with some other people because I have pictures of the other think something important to think about. Exactly.

Trevor Hoppe (33:24)
We’re all human, right? We’re all human and we’re

on those apps and we’re horny. And sometimes we treat people with the same kind of disrespect that we get. And it’s really, you don’t even realize sometimes you’re doing it. There can be these power games where people play in terms of, you know, leaving you on read, like they’ll read your message, but they won’t reply. And you’ll be like, and then I’ll find myself sometimes doing exactly the same thing.

Nolberto (33:30)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Aha.

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (33:52)
For many different reasons. Sometimes you’re not being rude. Sometimes you just don’t know, you know, if now is the right time. you know, you have to reflect back on yourself and think, am I also doing and contributing to this pattern and how do I change it? And one of the previous guests, Shane Lucas, that I interviewed talked about looking for people that are curious, that want to know things about you and that you want to know things about.

Nolberto (33:58)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (34:21)
And I really try to keep that. It’s, hard sometimes cause people don’t like to talk a lot on those apps, but, but if you kind of select for people who seem genuinely curious about you and what turns you on and that you’re also curious about them and what turns them on, I think that can be helpful to weed out those guys like you’re talking about who are not curious at all. and, and not good fucks as you said.

Nolberto (34:27)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Exactly.

Yes, exactly. And it’s a lack of reflection, it’s a lack of curiosity. It’s like taking for granted that this thing will directly bring you to another one. And that this is all figured out because there is this other thing in the equation. And it’s just unreal. But some people take it for granted.

Trevor Hoppe (35:13)
Yeah.

Nolberto (35:16)
I can’t blame no one but the culture again, but well it happens

Trevor Hoppe (35:22)
Yeah, I had an experience ago,

sort of similar to what you described where this guy messaged me and couldn’t meet up right then. And I said, I said no. his response is like, wasn’t really into you actually. I just thought you would be easy. I was like, great. Well, thank you for clarifying that. What the fuck? Like.

Nolberto (35:41)
Okay.

That’s a very

rude thing to say.

Trevor Hoppe (35:47)
It’s awful. I think, yeah, and that can really…

Nolberto (35:50)
It’s awful. I remember my next boyfriend.

My next boyfriend told me the very same thing. You have people behind you. You have all these kind of people who invite you to dinner or something. But not because you’re handsome, because you’re easy. And I was like, okay.

Trevor Hoppe (35:56)
Ugh, I’m sorry.

just the audacity to say that and it’s a lot. It’s a lot. So you had to kiss some frogs to get to the good stuff. is today, what do you think the best sex looks like for you today?

Nolberto (36:11)
Exactly. Mm-hmm. Yes.

Yes.

the best sex looks like…

like two or more present their consent and their craziness in a playground. To me, good sex is a playground. To me, good sex is about taking pauses, you know, like, let’s pause it for a moment, and restart again. Good sex is about… Let me catch some air.

sex is about…so good, should I go upper? should I go lower? sex is about a good laugh in between good sex is about the chance to not being worried about how you are being you know

Trevor Hoppe (37:02)
Mmm.

It’s real.

Nolberto (37:13)
For me good

sex is It’s like I used to think of good sex like my own version of my own porn movie, you Considering there’s a fiction of course, you know? like the main videos that we I used to think of my sexuality as like my best sex, my version of…

best sex would be a porn clip directed for me, by me, you know? But I have started to make it a little more complex because it’s not about how it looks, it’s about how it feels and it’s about how the environment. So it’s the clip and they’re behind the scenes and the process of being right in it during the time you’re filming it, you know? It’s everything happening at the same time.

Trevor Hoppe (37:43)
That’s a nice way to think about it.

That’s right.

Nolberto (38:07)
I think it’s possible when you have the chance to be yourself and to ask for the things you want in the moment and you are open enough to let the other person be. And that’s great. I remember I had one of the best experiences some months ago with someone that I was…

He was attending one of my courses years ago and then we found each other again on Instagram and he was like, were the teacher in that, and I was like, yes. He was like, I wish I could have the chance to take you to dinner after this and everything. And I was like, well, you have the chance now. So we met, we talked a little on Instagram. We talked about…

Trevor Hoppe (38:48)
Yeah

Nolberto (38:53)
fantasies, we talked about things that we wanted to do, things that we’d like to. We defined like the base, the basics, sorry. And we had one of the best sexual encounters of my entire life. I was like, my God. mean, he was an athlete, but not exactly, not just in physical terms, you know?

because you see when a muscle is trained but in the conversation you can realize too you can tell when communication skills are trained too you can see when when when honesty is trained too you can see when

You can tell a lot of things when you talk to someone. So it was very, very apparent. We were like having fun. It was about having fun. And it was great. I mean, yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (39:49)
That’s awesome. I’m going to record this question so I can edit it back into that. So I can energize.

Nolberto (39:50)
Yeah. huh. Okay. huh. Okay.

Okay.

Trevor Hoppe (39:57)
But you’re sorry, hands will be problematic with, yep.

Nolberto (40:00)
sorry, Thank you.

Let me do these things before.

Trevor Hoppe (40:03)
So can you two…

Nolberto (40:08)
Is it my hair is in this phase when it’s growing but it’s not short but it’s not long exactly and it falls off? Yeah, it’s better. Thank you.

Trevor Hoppe (40:20)
So can you tell me about one of the best experiences that you’ve had? I’m just gonna edit that in too so that you can then tell that story that you just told. For the clips, it’s good to have a back and forth. So like I said, when you just stick to one story, like don’t, I remember a time when I just stick to the one. will be easier, I promise, in the long run.

Nolberto (40:24)
Hmm

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Yes. Thank you. I just let carry the way.

Trevor Hoppe (40:47)
Sorry to interrupt again.

I know, I love that. And it’s usually amazing just for the Instagram stuff, it has to be so tight. know? me figure, know where I was gonna go from there.

Nolberto (40:57)
I know. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (41:01)
So are you a lights on or lights off kind of guy?

Nolberto (41:04)
My lights on… that’s a good question. My lights on… It’s not about physical features, but there has to be something physical that attracts me, of course. Even if it’s… beard, chest, legs, whatever. There has to be something physical, yeah. There doesn’t have to be the whole package of physical features that I will…

like or if I detracted. I need a good laugh. Of course I need a good laugh. I need a good sense of humor. need a curious person. I need someone who encourages you to talk. I need someone, what turns me on is someone that when you say something that…

can be kind of censorship reason, that person asks you, and what else? You know, with very interest. I love interest in passionate people. I love people who, what turns me on is people that you say something about some situation, some fantasy, some…

that you want to do and and they took it and it and if you are this have you ever tried to imagine if you are this or if you put this other element I was like okay so someone who interacts with your desire that always turns out it also turns me on of course when someone has this

this ability to pause things, you know? Okay, let’s bring some water. Are you okay? Are you feeling It doesn’t break my fantasy. Aha, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn’t finish my fantasy, of course. It makes me feel like, okay, we’re taking care of each other, too. That’s something that should be on. What turns me off, it’s way easier.

Trevor Hoppe (42:40)
ability to take a break. Yeah. Yeah.

Nolberto (42:58)
The people who just lay down and wait for you.

Trevor Hoppe (43:00)
Well,

let me ask you that. know, sorry to keep interrupting. Now that I’ve edited so many of these, I just know what’s gonna work best. And if I ask you that question, will be, I can use it more.

Nolberto (43:06)
Tell me about it.

Trevor Hoppe (43:14)
So we got a good idea of kind of what turns you on, what turns you off.

Nolberto (43:18)
Oh, it turns me off. It’s a little easier. The people who just lay down and make you do all the effort. The people who just throw some crumbles of information and you have to figure out all that will happen.

Trevor Hoppe (43:24)
Yeah.

Nolberto (43:36)
It’s not that I need three or four hours encounter. I’m a big fan of quickies. we have to settle. We have to decide it together. know? I turn up entitled people.

Trevor Hoppe (43:44)
Really?

Nolberto (43:51)
I hate when people are just like, okay, but you see this beauty here in front of you, so you want to worship me, right? It’s like, have, yes, it’s like, I have not decided that and you will not decide for me unless it’s my fantasy in that, in which case I am still deciding, you know? That’s kind of what turns me on. People with bad moods in terms of, you know, in…

Trevor Hoppe (43:57)
Yeah, this, yeah.

Right.

Nolberto (44:19)
People who are rude, like people who are, I’m tired of. That’s why, it’s very easy to turn me off. And it’s very easy that if some people has already turned me on, it’s very easy to turn me off. I have learned to, I have learned to not continue with interactions that I don’t want to. And I have.

been and I have learned that I can stop being afraid of finishing an encounter if something doesn’t, if I don’t like something and I’m very, very, very in peace with that.

Trevor Hoppe (44:57)
Yeah, amen to that. How did you learn to say effectively? Because I think that’s what’s so hard for some people is not just, don’t want to have sex with you, but maybe I’m going to leave this situation because I don’t feel good it.

Nolberto (45:10)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well first I have to remind myself that this is not the encounter or this is not the last chance that I will have to have an encounter. I remember I have to remind myself that there is a lot of people that are into me that finds me attractive.

that want to have a good moment with me sexually and that makes me think with more confidence like, alright, this time it’s not happening, next time without a person, it will happen because there will be some other people, there are some other people that will be more compatible with the things that I want and the things that I want to

Trevor Hoppe (45:49)
Peace out.

Nolberto (46:02)
to bring to the and I will be more compatible with some other if it didn’t work, thank you for your time, my best wishes And that’s it. Yes, yes, exactly, yes. Yes, I’m not… Yes, yes.

Trevor Hoppe (46:13)
for now. I understand that, And

what you think, you described kind of the characteristics of what you think the best sex looks like for you. Can you, looking back, is there an encounter where you’re like, you know what, this is pretty much close to the best?

Nolberto (46:25)
Mm-hmm.

Close to the best. Close to the best. This guy that was my student in the course that I teach, like some years ago. There’s been some, I think that since 2015, maybe 10 years ago, I started to develop this workshop.

Trevor Hoppe (46:43)
Mmm.

Nolberto (46:58)
that is called Sessiones Explicitas. That is a sexual health workshop for gay We work at Naked. So from that course, I have developed some small workshops, Sara, short versions with very specific objectives. So there was some guy who took the course with me years ago.

Trevor Hoppe (47:00)
huh.

Nolberto (47:21)
And like some months ago, found me on Instagram and was really wanted to have some interaction with you after that cause. But I found it problematic. I knew that it wasn’t going to be the most ethical thing. well, now that I have found you and some years have been, I wanna talk about it. And I was like, I think this is a great time to talk about it.

And we talked a little about fantasies, we talked a little about situations, we made our schedules to work on together and we had a very, very good time.

We had this basis very, very clear about what we wanted to do. And it wasn’t like we had any script of what to do and what to say, but we had a general idea. And from that, we started to just to have fun and just to let each one carry their weight. was very, very, it was a very, it was about reaffirmation of course, like.

there was always this communication verbally about this is what I wanted to do, like yes, it go, and I finally have the chance of having, know, with all this desire and the tone of the voice, you know? And there’s also a lot of things,

Involving the whole body, you know not focusing in some parts of the body. It was like a whole experience and it was Like let’s make a pause. I need some water so we can keep on continue like this it was it’s very interesting how you can be like kind you’re like craving for someone but at the same time that you feel like you have

Praising for someone you also know that you still have time to make little pulses so you can still enjoy the situation So it was very very hard and intense sometimes, you know, and it was very very calm sometimes and I think it was about balance It was about Talking about what we wanted in the moment and and to continue

to the other one if we wanted upper the level making it low. It was like, it was great. It was like close to the best. I wouldn’t know which one to call my best but that was definitely one of the most recent and the most pleasurable ever.

Trevor Hoppe (49:54)
Great. You mentioned these workshops. Tell me a little bit about what you would do in these workshops, because I’m sure people are curious.

Nolberto (50:00)
Yes, of course. Yeah, we’re glad to do. Well, so Cedric’s Explicit Desks, Explicit Sessions, is a workshop that I developed with some inspirations in some Tantra workshops that I went into sometimes. You know, Tantra is more spiritual, and I make my workshops a little more practical, because I…

I don’t have a spiritual training in anything, but I do have this experience and this knowledge in practical things about sexual hell. I forget the other words, sorry. But it’s something like it’s about your own body and how you think of your own body, not in a spiritual…

terms, in just physical terms, know, very, very practical. And I came up with the idea of first, we need to learn about sexuality more relaxed environments and we have to give ourselves a chance to learn in terms of pleasure, not in terms of guilt.

Trevor Hoppe (51:06)
Yeah.

Nolberto (51:08)
or in terms of what could go wrong. And if we think of terms of what could go wrong, we have to think about what can we bring to the table that has been wrong during our lives. So there is like two big, I always say that this workshop has two strong legs. The first one is this, about experience, of course, and you have the chance to.

We talk about consent in every exercise. We always talk about consent in every exercise because I always have an assistant with me. Like a magician, there’s always one person with which I show the exercise first with that person. Okay, the next exercise is about this, this, and this. And I do all the exercise with the person that I have for demonstration.

Trevor Hoppe (51:46)
Yeah

Nolberto (51:59)
And then I asked to the team, to the people, is there any one of you that doesn’t want to do this exercise? And if someone raised their hands, it doesn’t matter, it’s great. You helped me to work on with the materials, with the message, oil, and all these things. I mean, you can learn maybe by not participating.

But if you participate, I want you to feel safe and I want you to feel comfortable when you participate. that’s the first thing. We talk about sexual health in a very consent, with a very specific perspective of consent. Because the other lack of the workshop is that even if we even if the people that signs up to the workshop, maybe some of them are gay men.

some of them are non-binary people that have sex with gay men. The thing is, there’s a lot of violence in our interactions. We still have the idea, the wrong idea, that harder is better, that deeper is better, that stronger is better. And not all the times, not with all the people.

And there’s some awful experience that people have terms of, couldn’t stop this. some people get hurt physically and some people get hurt emotionally. So other thing that we work on in the workshop. It’s a six hour workshop because it’s always step by step, little by little we go.

from very basic things to some other exercise every time with less clothes, every time with a little more ideas to complex and always after an exercise we always try to discuss the center issue. The exercise works as a…

as a provocation to speak, you know? It’s like, let’s use the exercise as an excuse to talk about some other ideas. it’s not just about getting naked with other guys, which I always tell people, this is not exactly an orgy. If you want to, I can manage drone. I’m very, very good at managing orgy.

Trevor Hoppe (54:03)
Yeah.

Nolberto (54:17)
a very good orgy organizer orgy planner, I will say. But well, what I always tell them is that it’s not like a… It’s more like a series of exercises and discussions that are from very basic things to more complex things about what is defined in us in our sexuality.

Trevor Hoppe (54:17)
No.

Nolberto (54:39)
being rude and violent with other men, being entitled to do things that the other people maybe don’t want to do. Because the most of the time when gaming talk about of their sexual encounters, they will use metaphors with violence. The most of them, wouldn’t know how to translate it in English, but was like

I really destroyed her whole, you know, was like… Destroying is really good thing in all this, the context. Is it really what the other person wanted? But if it… Because if it is, it’s great. But wasn’t what the other people was asking for. So, it’s kind of… It’s the first time I tried to talk about my workshop in English. It’s been quite a challenge. Thank you for that.

Trevor Hoppe (55:29)
I think you are onto something with this tendency to, I guess it’s just toxic masculinity that seeps into our heads and we end up using this kind of macho language around, I fucked him in half, you know, I just destroyed his whole, I,

Nolberto (55:42)
Mm-hmm.

Uh-huh.

Trevor Hoppe (55:47)
Part of that, I guess, is toxic masculinity. What are the good parts of masculinity that we should kind of promote and kind of foster and feel good about, and how do we separate that from the toxic stuff?

Nolberto (56:02)
a great question. You always ask the smallest questions. Because I’m going to be totally honest with you as I have been my whole life. The first idea that appears in my head is nothing but. Yeah, but I think about it for second and I said, okay,

Trevor Hoppe (56:20)
Right? Yeah, I feel that. I do.

Nolberto (56:27)
One of the first features that I think is like, there’s this like sufficiency, I think that’s the word, when you are…

able to speak your mind. You’re able to say what you want to do, what you want to have, what you want to say, basically. Yeah, that confidence that is like, all right, this is what I need. And even if other people’s tries to convince me that maybe you don’t want this, yes, I want this first. I think there also this crafty feature, like we don’t want to hire other people to fix something in our house.

Trevor Hoppe (56:42)
confidence.

Nolberto (57:03)
We have this confidence. Yes, exactly. I can do it myself. And I can prove myself that I’m good at it. Even if it’s my first attempt to do it, I will prove myself that I’m good enough to do this. It will bring me a satisfaction feeling.

Trevor Hoppe (57:03)
We’re supposed to be handyman.

Nolberto (57:21)
the other thing is like, socially we are encouraged to take some risks. And sometimes we see things as risks, but as opportunities.

Trevor Hoppe (57:27)
Hmm.

Mmm.

Nolberto (57:34)
And

I think that’s a very good thing in terms of, I remember a friend of mine in high school that said, if you don’t want it, we cannot do it again. If you didn’t like it at the end, we cannot do it again. So I think these are three features at last that as an adult I think of masculinity. And of course I’m not rejecting the idea of

that list becoming a bigger list during the following years. If you ask me the same question in one year or two years, maybe I will come with a bigger list.

Trevor Hoppe (58:17)
Definitely. I appreciate that because I think sometimes label of toxic masculinity, often we can see that and we can appreciate what’s bad about masculinity, but I think there are also good elements of it we also want to try to hold onto and not throw out with the bathwater. And as gay men, we obviously have a fraught and troubled

Nolberto (58:23)
you

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (58:41)
troubled relationship with masculinity just because of the nature of our society, but reclaiming that, that good stuff I think can be helpful people.

Nolberto (58:43)
Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (58:50)
always like to end with my favorite segment, Sorted Lives or Untold Tales or SLUT for short. What’s the sluttiest thing you ever did?

Nolberto (58:59)
the sluggiest thing I ever did. I was lucky enough to have a sex club like three blocks away from my house and I was starting prep and prep gave me a lot of permission to do a lot of things so I remember it’s one of my golden memories

Trevor Hoppe (59:09)
Nice.

Nolberto (59:23)
of my sexual life is one of the highlights. My first test to mouth. I like, yeah. My first, I haven’t experienced myself much as a bottom until the recent years and after PrEP. And I have gave myself a tons of options and things to do that I wasn’t able to do. I’m not just thinking that PrEP is…

is doing all the homework because in parallel I have made a lot of thinking and a lot of reflection inside myself and I’m always these people who wonders why and how. So I think that has helped a lot but yes there’s a lot of things that are like my sluttiest The first gangbang is a button.

That was quite memorable

My first orgy. I have tons. I have tons, And there’s some other things that they were like very, very slutty and they sound very good in history, but in real terms, they were very, very sometimes I fulfilled my fantasy of having sex in the beach.

Trevor Hoppe (1:00:23)
Hahaha.

Yeah,

Nolberto (1:00:43)
But it’s very, very uncomfortable. I was like, it sounds very sexy, like doing it and it’s like, no, there’s sand all over me, there’s sand inside of me. No, I need to stop it.

Trevor Hoppe (1:00:54)
Some places you do not want exfoliated with sand. It is just not the place.

Nolberto (1:00:58)
Yes, exactly. Yes.

But it’s good to have this experience because now I know that I don’t want to do it again. And no one is coming here to tell me, how does it feel? I have had the experience for myself and that’s my decision to make.

Trevor Hoppe (1:01:09)
Amen to that.

Amen. Well, that’s a really good place to end. appreciate it. Tell me if listeners or watchers, viewers want to learn more about you, where can they find you online?

Nolberto (1:01:14)
Yeah.

Bye.

Well, they can find me online in Instagram. My Instagram name is Noelle Rofian. I think we can write it down. So it’s my name in Instagram and an X, formerly known as Twitter. There’s lots of nudity and explicit material in X. So it’s NSFW, I think the other letters. Yeah. Instagram is little…

Trevor Hoppe (1:01:32)
Yes, I will tag you of course, yep.

And not safe for work, yes, exactly.

Nolberto (1:01:49)
more about education stuff and the things that I do daily and lots of underwear. That’s where you can find me.

Trevor Hoppe (1:01:56)
Perfect. Thank you so much, Alberto. I really appreciate your time and your wisdom.

Nolberto (1:02:01)
Thank you a lot, thank you for your trust in me, thank you for considering me as one of your guests. You’re a person that I admire a lot in every, and I’m very flattered to be here.

Trevor Hoppe (1:02:11)
Well, the feeling is mutual, for sure.

Trevor Hoppe (1:02:15)
That’s our show for today. As always, thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed today’s show, leave us a review on Apple, on Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your content. We would be most grateful for that kind of feedback. It keeps us going. And remember, if you aren’t having your best sex life, I can help. My services as a sex coach are designed to help you identify and overcome.

those obstacles that are standing between you and your best sex life. Find out more on my website, thebestcasex.net. Till next time.