OVERVIEW: Dr. Trevor Hoppe sits down with long-time HIV activist and community organizer Alex Garner for a candid conversation about gay men’s sexual culture, cruising, and the journey to sexual liberation. With over 30 years of experience in queer advocacy and living with HIV, Alex shares intimate stories about his early sexual experiences, from the cruising spots of 90s West Hollywood to the impact of seroconversion on his sexuality.
Alex discusses the nuanced realities of condomless sex, the performance of masculinity in sexual settings, and the transformative power of sex beyond the shadow of HIV. They delve into topics like public play, sexual sherpas, and the evolving landscape of queer sex post-PrEP and U=U.
Raw, unfiltered, and insightful, this episode explores how embracing pleasure and authenticity can help create your best sex life yet. Don’t miss Alex’s take on why being a “slut” is something to celebrate and his most “Dynasty-worthy” sexual exploits. Tune in for an episode that challenges norms, celebrates liberation, and dives deep into the politics of pleasure.
TRANSCRIPT:
Trevor Hoppe (00:09)
Hey, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Trevor Hoppe. Today’s episode is about liberation. Fun fact, before it was called a Pride Parade, each year our communities would gather to commemorate the 1969 Stonewall riots in New York City with a march. And we called it a Gay Liberation March. Liberation was our way of saying, as a community, to straight people,
We’re not changing for you. Two kids and a white picket fence? No thanks, we don’t want that life. Gay liberation dreamed of a radical future where we didn’t depend on marriage for access to healthcare or basic civil rights. Crazy ideas, right? Today’s guest knows a thing or two about liberation. I’ve known Alex Garner for almost 20 years.
We even co-wrote a play together called The Bottom Monologues. Right? It’s amazing, you should check it out. He has never compromised his radical sex politics in the service of anyone else’s comfort level, and I truly admire that. Today, Alex is bringing his uncompromising radical sex politics to his work with MPact Global, spreading the word and raising awareness about gay men’s health and queer men’s health.
in a way that is truly sex positive. And he’s doing this around the world, from Mexico to Taiwan. Let’s listen in.
Trevor Hoppe (01:47)
Alex Garner, welcome to the Best Gay Seggs Podcast.
Alex (01:50)
Thanks so much, Trevor. I’m happy to be here.
Trevor Hoppe (01:52)
I am thrilled to have you here. You have been at the forefront of gay men’s seggsual health activism and thinking in my mind for many years now. But for folks who don’t know you, tell us a little bit about kind of where you’re from and the work you do now.
Alex (02:09)
Sure, sure. So I grew up in Southern California near Los Angeles and I’ve been working as a community organizer activist since the early 90s when I was 21. I’m now 52 almost, so I’ve spent my entire life working in some element of queer organizing and HIV, HIV in particular for queer men of color.
I’m positive, been positive for 28 years now, and that also has informed a great deal of the work that I do in particular, how to represent and advance the issues that are important and unique to queer men living with HIV. And I’m a writer as well. I’ve written articles, a couple of plays with some interesting collaborators. Shout out to the bottom monologues.
Trevor Hoppe (02:59)
Mm -hmm, bottom monologue, yeah.
Alex (03:05)
And currently I work for MPact Global. Impact is a global health and human rights organization focused mostly on gay, bi, queer, trans folks, rights and health. So I’m happy to be here and talk about this exciting topic, which I’d love to talk about.
Trevor Hoppe (03:30)
Yes, the best gay seggs. Everybody loves gay seggs. So you grew up near Los Angeles. When you say near Los Angeles, what proximity are we talking about?
Alex (03:39)
So I grew up in the Inland Empire. So most people probably know what that means. I .E. if you will. And then left there when I was 18 and go to college at UCSD. Spent eight years in San Diego and then the 25 I moved to Los Angeles to West Hollywood, the heart of the heart of gayness. And it was also a really, really good
Trevor Hoppe (03:43)
out.
Of course.
Yes.
Alex (04:08)
way to sort of an exciting time to have gay seggs in the 90s as a 25 year old in West Hollywood. It was fantastic.
Trevor Hoppe (04:13)
Ha ha.
And were you, so were you a little queer boy before you came to West Hollywood or was that part of your seggsual kind of awakening?
Alex (04:27)
I was very much a little gay queer boy before I came to West Hollywood. I came out in 91, 92. So I was 20 years old in San Diego. I was president of our, back then it was called LGBA, the Gay and Lesbian Association. So I was out and an activist before I moved to West Hollywood, but West Hollywood certainly allowed me to dive full.
face forward into the sort of seggsual culture of Los Angeles. And the circuit culture was also happening at a time that I was a part of. And I was doing seggs work then too. And so seggs was an enormous part of my experience those early years of West Hollywood. And it was back then when you could like walk down the street and a car would pull over and say, hey, where are you going?
Trevor Hoppe (05:16)
Yeah.
thinking about that. So how would you typically meet guys back then? Like what was the sort of protocol?
Alex (05:24)
So it was right when the advent of the internet was happening. So I think back then you had the traditional ways. So I went to a gay gym, which was in the middle of West Hollywood. It was men only. It was super, super gay. You could work out with your shirt off. They had an enormous sauna, steam room area where of course everyone was fooling around. They had a pool and a jacuzzi. And then they had a tanning area on the roof, which was clothing options.
Trevor Hoppe (05:36)
Mm -hmm.
Alex (05:53)
So you can imagine how that was. It’s great to have a good workout and then sort of get relief afterwards.
Trevor Hoppe (06:02)
And is that kind of like public play, has that always been part of your repertoire? Has that changed over time?
Alex (06:10)
That’s always been part of my repertoire. And I think I actually have thought it was so ingrained in me that when, before I even came out as gay, but I was starting to have seggs with men and I was at UCSD, for some reason I knew this, maybe it was genetic gay knowledge, I don’t know. But I knew that if I went to an adult bookstore, I could meet guys and have seggs with them.
Trevor Hoppe (06:31)
Hmm
Alex (06:38)
and there were adult bookstores that were quite popular in San Diego at that time that I could go to and meet guys. So that element of seggs and cruising was really sort of integral to my development. And we also had one of those bathrooms that was notorious for their glory holes, so notorious in fact that it was listed in the Damron guide if people still remember what that is.
Trevor Hoppe (06:39)
Mmm.
Alex (07:08)
Hehehehehe
Trevor Hoppe (07:10)
Like Fodors for gays, yeah.
Alex (07:12)
And so it was really popular. And I don’t know how I knew that it was there, but I knew that it was there and I went there. And so that style of seggs and cruising has always been special to me, I guess would be a sweet way to describe it, but certainly also informs the pleasure and fulfillment that I get around seggs because I…
Trevor Hoppe (07:20)
Yeah.
Alex (07:40)
From the very early age, I wasn’t ashamed of it and I understood why it was fun and exciting to me.
Trevor Hoppe (07:48)
And what’s special about it? You say special.
Alex (07:50)
Well, it holds a special place in my heart for me, I guess, guess, a little young gay person who was just discovering how seggs worked and how cruising worked and how you look at someone to indicate that you’re interested or how you respond to them and how you use your body, all of those sort of nonverbal cues that we have to master in a cruising setting. It amps up the excitement.
Trevor Hoppe (08:18)
Mm -hmm.
Alex (08:19)
When the time comes that you sort of, you know, if if use hunting as a metaphor, you sort of find the thing that you want and you think that they’re hot and they’re interested in you. And then you have this intense seggsual connection and all of that dance beforehand helps make that seggsual connection for me, all the more powerful and pleasurable and fulfilling.
Trevor Hoppe (08:43)
And do you remember your first time cruising?
Alex (08:46)
Gosh, it’s so, it was long ago. It was very long ago. I remember elements of like first, around the first times. Like I remember in particular, I remember being at the college, it was a lab, a science building, it was in the basement. It was very active. And I remember this one time in particular where there were like multiple guys in the bathroom at the same time at the urinal cruising in the store. It was like a porn.
Trevor Hoppe (09:13)
Mm.
Alex (09:16)
at the urinal cruising, in the stalls cruising, someone was literally sort of standing with their back against the door as sort of making sure we knew that someone was coming. And it was one of those old fashioned buildings where they have the double, there’s like a door that you enter and then there’s a little bitty sort of vestibule and then another door. So you could always hear the first door and know that someone was coming in. You know, gays, we have it all figured out.
Trevor Hoppe (09:16)
Damn.
The Watchman, yeah.
Wow.
Yeah, the architecture of cruising. I love it. That’s fabulous! Is this something you like, did your friends at the time, college friends know that this was something you were doing or is this like a
Alex (09:54)
No, I hadn’t come out yet. And so no one knew I was doing it. When I came out, I still did it. Like I’ve never been this type of person. I’ve never really held strongly to this belief that like cruising in public seggs is only for people who haven’t sort of embraced their sexuality fully. That devalues the act of it, right? So after I came out, I still did it. In fact, I did probably more of it because I didn’t.
Trevor Hoppe (09:56)
Yeah
Alex (10:12)
Hehehehe
have any concern that someone might bump into me and figure out who I was, blah, blah, blah. I went to other bookstores. Like I usually only went to the one that was close to the university. But then I discovered, there’s other places. And I talked to friends about going to these places. I had a friend that I would sometimes go with, right? And it was sort of, yeah, it was, it was fun because we were part of the currency attached to cruising in these public seggs spaces.
Trevor Hoppe (10:39)
Really?
Alex (10:50)
is masculinity, of course. And so I understood how to fabricate my masculinity to get what I wanted. And it always amused me sort of how people would respond to what I would feel was a sort of obviously an authentic masculinity. The friend that I would go with was also exactly like me. Even physically, we sort of were the same and he was a big girl.
Trevor Hoppe (10:52)
-huh.
Right?
Alex (11:18)
the big queen. And so it was always sort of funny to see us transform the minute we passed through those little plastic things that hang in, you know, those bookstores because we knew how to use our masculinity to get what we wanted, right? It’s just that we all have our tricks in our bag.
Trevor Hoppe (11:19)
Yeah.
Yeah, it was a way, I was just curious, like what are those tricks? Like what is the fabrication for you? I mean, you are what, six four? Yeah, people watching cannot tell that, but that’s part of the effect, right? Is height, I think adds to the element, kind of broad shouldered. But so there’s physical attributes, but like, you know, obviously you’re talking about something that’s more performative.
Alex (11:45)
Uh huh.
Thank you.
Yeah, I mean, so obviously, even right now, I move when I talk, I use my hands when I walk, I walk in what has always been considered a gay way. So if I have to be masculine, then I lower my voice or talk as little as possible. I move as little as possible. I don’t move my hips. I change my gait in terms of how I walk.
Trevor Hoppe (12:23)
Ahaha
Alex (12:28)
All of those things, and it creates a certain mystique if you’re sort of moving less and moving less and talking less. It creates a little sort of distance intrigue or whatever. So I figured out I knew how to do that. I don’t do it, obviously, in my daily life, but if I need to get what I want, we all do that. Like if you go to the supermarket and you have to be nice to someone to get a return.
Trevor Hoppe (12:47)
Well, yeah, exactly. Yeah, you don’t really want to be nice to them, but you have to. Like, yeah, of course, it’s always performance, right? We are always sort of moving through. And I think that rubs up against this idea of authenticity today that, you know, people are like so invested in. And it’s like, OK, well, there are limits to that. But I guess I wonder, I’m just curious, because you used that word, an obviously inauthentic manifestation of masculinity, right?
Do you ever wish you could be desired without that?
Alex (13:20)
I mean, I think that I am. I think that there are plenty of people who desire. I think there are people that are actually attracted to what I would consider my feminine side, right? I think actually part of it, and this is where I sort of feel affection towards it. I think part of it is a game. And I understand it’s a role that you play and it’s a game that you play. It’s sort of stepping into the spotlight or onto the stage. And you know how it works.
Trevor Hoppe (13:22)
Yeah, right, like, of course!
Yeah.
Alex (13:51)
And like I said, we do the same thing. Like if we’re talking to our ticket agent and we hope that they’re going to upgrade us to first class, right? You create something to get what you want. And I think that when it comes to seggs, as long as I’m in on the illusion, then it’s not sort of confining me or controlling me. If I can see it as sort of ridiculous and laughable.
Trevor Hoppe (13:58)
-huh.
Alex (14:16)
then it’s not sort of gonna feel oppressive to me. It’s just something that I can use to get what I want. And it also doesn’t, I think when it comes to seggs, what will frustrate me is this idea that men will often expect me to play a particular role sexually. Like they really want like a super dominant masculine guy who’s gonna like f*** them really hard.
choke them and you know and I never really get into that it’s so much work. And so that’s the only that would I think would be the only frustration is that they they they come to believe it so much that they expect certain things as a result.
Trevor Hoppe (15:01)
Yeah, isn’t that funny? This is a theme that keeps coming up, is just this like, this inability for people to detach from the fantasy. They’re like, so invested in the fantasy, they think the fantasy is reality. And it’s like, babe, of course it’s not reality. Like, what are you thinking? Can you think of a time where like, that has really gone south, where like, you just feel like,
there was this complete disconnect between what someone wanted from you and what you were wanting to offer them.
Alex (15:29)
I mean, I think the the example would be, I remember I met this guy and he was was super cute, hot, I would say, super hot. And I was like, really into like having seggs with seggs And we met up, I went to his place. I was living in DC at the time. And when I met him in person, he was even hotter than I expected him to be. But he was into role play.
Trevor Hoppe (15:54)
Mm -hmm.
Alex (15:54)
And so he was so invested in the role play that after five minutes, I guess, wanted to say, scene, bring the curtain down, let’s stop, take a break. Because he was like, he had this elaborate fantasy in his head. I was his dad, he was my son, I was having seggs with him, we shared this secret, no one could know, we couldn’t tell mom, it was only a little secret mom couldn’t know. And then from there it was this.
Trevor Hoppe (16:12)
Mm -hmm.
Alex (16:23)
idea that he had constructed that we had a cabin in the woods that I would take him to and we would have seggs there and then I would invite all my other adult male friends over and they would have seggs with him too and it was just it was so elaborate that I was just exhausted that it’s too much. Scene.
Trevor Hoppe (16:45)
Yeah, I mean, I guess maybe if it was a seggs work context and this was someone paying you, then there might be some kind of… But yeah, that’s kind of a lot to ask of someone you’ve just met. Like, hey, could you… Wow, that had so many nooks and crannies with the mom and the cabin. That is interesting.
Alex (16:50)
Precisely.
Trevor Hoppe (17:08)
Would you feel differently about that if that was a client?
Alex (17:11)
well, yeah, if it’s a client, then it’s performance. I mean, this whole notion of masculinity is currency when it comes to being an escort, right? I mean, I think the biggest things that clients wanted, at least back then, big dicks, masculine, controlling. I mean, those were the things that they would pay a higher premium for. You know, it’s all sort of supply -side economics at the end of the day.
Trevor Hoppe (17:21)
Mm -hmm.
Alex (17:38)
And so if a client wants that, then of course I can do that for an hour and I can pretend and perform to be the most interested person in the world.
Trevor Hoppe (17:48)
Right, for a price, exactly. No, yeah, I get that, totally. So, you know, it sounds like you, a lot of people have expectations of you being a top. Is that like something, a term you relate to, identify with? How do you feel about that term? How do you feel about these categories generally?
Alex (17:52)
It’s always for a price.
Yeah, I mean, I’m sort of classic in terms of these categories, you know, sort of in that 70s, blue hanky sort of way. So I would, I, yeah, I call myself a top and I put top in my profiles and blah, blah, blah. I also understand the sort of ridiculousness of it. Like it’s just a indication of the fact that I will want to be the one f**king but it doesn’t mean anything else or it shouldn’t mean anything else. And,
Trevor Hoppe (18:20)
Mm. Mm -hmm.
Alex (18:41)
But it, of course, comes with expectations in terms of people who want to have seggs with you. And I’ve been living in Mexico City for the last few years. And so it’s always funny to get a message on Grindr or something. And the first thing they say is, “Ay macho.” That’s what they want. And at certain times, I can be in that mood. But I want to do it when I want to do it, not when they want to do it. do it.
Trevor Hoppe (19:05)
Yeah, do you feel like that’s something you’ve learned over time? Like only doing it when you want to do it or?
Alex (19:13)
Certainly, I mean, I think I’ve learned it. I’ve learned to sort of, I hate to use this sort of phrase or term. I’ve learned to sort of set my boundaries in terms of what I want, will and won’t do. Whereas if I was 21 years old, it’s just so much easier to do it. Even if I don’t feel like doing it, I’m still going to have a good time.
Trevor Hoppe (19:29)
Right, the mechanics are different, absolutely. You can get hard at, my God, yeah, exactly. I can understand that. Before we get to the best seggs, I guess I’m curious about the sort of learning process. And so I was trying to sort of think about how you learn to set those boundaries. And I guess if there were some experiences where, that were transformative in terms of
Alex (19:34)
Exactly.
Trevor Hoppe (19:58)
like, oh s**t like this was really bad. I need to course correct in the future.
Alex (20:06)
I mean, I think that when I think about any seggs that I would consider really bad, I don’t think it was, I think it was more circumstantial than anything else or maybe communication. And so you sort of learn, you learn immediately. It’s less of a course correction and it’s more of a sort of little tweak, right? I think that the things that, I think the two things that informed my seggsual development the most were,
Trevor Hoppe (20:17)
Hmm. Mm -hmm.
Alex (20:35)
seggs work and HIV, being HIV positive. Seggs work because it helped me really distinguish between seggs that was for work and seggs that was for my fulfillment. And that was valuable because most of us don’t have to think about that. And so it forced me to say, this is recreational seggs and this is work seggs.
Trevor Hoppe (20:38)
Mmm.
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Alex (21:01)
and they’re different and I can enjoy them in different ways. And there were times, certainly many times when I was doing seggs work and I enjoyed it with the person in a different way. But it helped me really have to think about what I consider pleasurable and fulfilling seggs. So that.
Trevor Hoppe (21:18)
Yeah, because you’re using your time to find that. So you want to like get what you want out of it. What’s the difference for you in terms of, I mean, it sounds like the seggs work stuff came with that baggage of expectations and but.
Alex (21:33)
Well, you know, it reminds me of the bottom monologues because one of the characters that I created was Big Dick Escort, right? And so he had this whole sort of seggs life as a top, dominant top with his Big Dick, but his real, fulfilling seggs life was at the bottom. And my seggs life was still as a top.
Trevor Hoppe (21:38)
hehehehe
Mm -hmm.
Alex (21:58)
but it was sort of my relationship to the person that I was with, my relationship to my body and the seggs that I found satisfying recreationally, that was the, I think the big difference because when you’re doing seggs work, it’s so much about oftentimes it’s like, how can I just get this over with?
Trevor Hoppe (22:17)
Ha ha.
Alex (22:19)
And there are great clients that would be done in 15 minutes and they just want you to c*** And so then you’re like focusing on the end results, right? So you get there, you know that you’re done, hours over, they pay you and they leave. And so in that sense, it’s so transactional, not in a bad way, but it’s so transactional that it helps you sort of have a clearer sense of it. Whereas if it’s seggs that you’re having just to enjoy, then you can…
relax and you can sort of explore and you can sort of, you know, there’s a dance and a rhythm to it that you can lean into that when you’re performing it, it’s just not the same.
Trevor Hoppe (22:57)
Yeah, sort of letting your hair down, so to speak.
Alex (23:01)
Yeah, that could be a good way to describe it.
Trevor Hoppe (23:04)
Yeah, no, I can understand that. Like, there’s just, there’s not, you’re not in your head as much about thinking about, as you say, the end result or time, especially, I’m sure, as part of it. So, you’re identifying at the top, you’re having these experiences, and you say that bad seggs,
for you was circumstantial, what do you mean by that?
Alex (23:30)
Well, I mean, it’s also difficult to define what bad seggs is. Like, did I have a bad time? Did we stop midway through? Did what, you know, there’s all these different things that were they bad kissers? I think for me, fundamentally, if I’m with someone and they’re a bad kisser, then like, and I just can’t. That’s an index. For me, that’s sort of bar.
about seggs has always sort of been set around, I mean, kissing is probably one of the most important indicators, but it’s also the sort of sense of passion, like, you know, you don’t don’t to, what’s the expression, wet fish or whatever. So I think that’s, that for me has always been a good way to sort of indicate what the seggs seggs going to be like with them. And then I think, when I think about
Bad seggs, sometimes it’s, like, I want to be careful about describing the word bad because it’s not about the person per se, right? So like, if you have a seggsual experience with someone and, you know, s**t happens, it’s no one’s fault, of course, but it can break the mood, right? And so it’s a bad experience. And sometimes you can have a bad experience of that part. It really, really breaks the mood.
Trevor Hoppe (24:51)
We’re talking literally s**t happens here it sounds like. Yeah, okay.
Alex (24:55)
Exactly, exactly. And so that’s just par for the course, but it can make things, you know, it can make the experience sort of come to an abrupt end.
Trevor Hoppe (25:05)
Right, yes.
Alex (25:07)
Other than that, I think sexually, and this is where I sort of try to set this out when I’m meeting people. I think the other thing that I tend to prefer is someone who’s experienced, right? And so someone who knows what they want, someone who knows what they’re doing. The thing that will annoy me the most in seggs is when someone either gives me direction,
or asks a lot of questions. Like, are you enjoying this? Can I do this for you? Should I do this? I feel like those things don’t need to be articulated if you’re good. You can figure them out, right? And so I think that helps me understand. Like if I have seggs with someone, I don’t even care if we speak the same language or not. You have a connection with them. You don’t need to say a word.
Trevor Hoppe (25:36)
Mmm.
Alex (26:04)
in terms of knowing where the seggs is gonna go and how you can make them feel good and how they can make you feel good. That for me becomes certainly fits into the category of some of the best seggs because it’s so physical, it’s so much about chemistry and pleasure.
Trevor Hoppe (26:23)
So it sounds like bad, part of bad for you is someone’s inability to read your body language and kind of vibe. I’m like, God, am I using that word? But it’s real, it’s a thing. And when the vibe isn’t there, or when someone just can’t feel the pulse, I guess.
Alex (26:36)
you
Yeah, yeah, they just sort of want to lay there. Like, like, there are times when I’m in the mood for like, a lazy bottom, but usually I’m not right. And sometimes I want to be a lazy top. it’s been a long day. And so, but they’re often, and there are often people out there who are more than happy to comply. So, that’s not, that’s
Trevor Hoppe (26:55)
Mm -hmm
Mm -hmm.
Absolutely.
Right. Comply. That’s a hot word right there.
Alex (27:15)
Precisely. So that’s not the big issue. I think for me, as we’ve been talking for weeks about this sort of idea of best seggs and good seggs, especially when I’ve had 30 plus years of gay seggs, it’s hard to put my finger on one or two. It’s always so…
dependent upon sort of the circumstances of my life at that time or the circumstances of that seggs. And I think there are certainly some that immediately come to mind, right? Some of it has to do with sort of the seggs that you have, like when you’re on ecstasy and you’re dancing at a circuit party all night long and then you go home and have seggs with someone. That is certainly enhanced because of the ecstasy and because of your attraction to them and you’re like in love with them for that.
Trevor Hoppe (28:00)
Mm -hmm.
Alex (28:09)
12 hours, whatever. But I think the important thing on that, in that part in terms of sort of love, right? I think that you can love someone for 30 minutes and have the seggs that’s the most intense, incredible. I don’t like to qualify it and say you’re in love with them, but I think we need to sort of expand our context of concept of romantic love because it’s so heteronormative.
Trevor Hoppe (28:10)
Yeah, it can create this heightened experience.
Alex (28:38)
And I could love someone I met in the subway and had seggs with, you know, in the bathroom. I’d never see them again.
Trevor Hoppe (28:42)
And never see again. Yeah, yeah. Well, it’s like we need, we need 17 words for love or something like whatever. People say there’s, I can’t remember what other language has many more words, but you know, the old saying. Yeah, definitely there’s, there’s kismet. I don’t know what the word is. We don’t really have a language. There’s some kind of connection that can form that is, it’s kismet.
Alex (28:52)
Yes.
Trevor Hoppe (29:11)
What is it? I don’t know. It can, as you say, can heighten the experience. It can just create this intimacy. And even that sounds heteronormative to me. It sounds like, you know, you know.
Alex (29:21)
Yeah, I use that I use that word as default, but it’s also so you know, heteronormativity values certain words like love and intimacy. And and we’re sort of confined by our language. And so maybe that’s sort of our next project is to figure out better ways to describe these things. But I think part of that connection, going back to the other part is part of that connection, particularly
Trevor Hoppe (29:31)
Right.
Alex (29:49)
in the 90s and early 2000s was around HIV. And so there was, it’s so difficult to articulate or for people to understand what it means to meet someone when you’re positive who’s also positive and have seggs with them, particularly before PrEP and undetectable were as common as they are today. Because you had…
Trevor Hoppe (30:06)
Mm -hmm.
You mean positive people had seggs back then? Oh my god! Yeah, exactly. People often don’t understand that that, yeah, exactly, sorry, continue, yeah.
Alex (30:19)
Yes
No, I mean, I think think part of it, right? Part of it is this is is advancing narrative that not only were we having seggs and lots of seggs and good seggs and seggs parties and all these sorts of things, but it became this extra sense of connection when you could find someone who was also positive. And also often that would translate sexually into not wanting to use condoms. Right. And so that way. And so, you know, not wanting to use condoms and
Trevor Hoppe (30:49)
Mm -hmm.
Alex (30:54)
c inside them or seeming to exchange all of that sort of stuff, which was forbidden and in many places still is. Culturally, people still feel that way. To be able to do that, you know, Eric would use the term outlaw, I think sometimes to describe that sort of seggsual, Eric Rofes sorry. And so this idea of sort of being a seggsual outlaw in that context, I think also, also
Trevor Hoppe (31:00)
Mm -hmm.
Eric Rofes our friend and late mentor, yeah.
Alex (31:23)
contributed to feelings around seggs. But I think that there’s also, every positive person sort of has this moment or multiple moments experience where you meet someone and they’re like, I’m positive. And you’re like, me too. And then everything changes, right? Like right before you’re about to have seggs, that happens. And it’s like, you know, the lights come on, it’s like this hallelujah moment. And that really…
Trevor Hoppe (31:35)
Hmm.
Alex (31:49)
really had an impact on sort of my seggsual development, right, to sort of form these connections with other positive guys and have this sort of seggs that we were having that we were very much enjoying, even though it was considered bad or wrong or irresponsible. And to, you know, foster this sort of seggsual community or seggsual network of positive guys at that time, that’s sustained, you know, to today, I think for many of them, but I think
That certainly helped me better understand what I saw as valuable in the seggs that I was having and how I articulated why it was valuable to me as a person living with HIV, not just as my right to have seggs that’s pleasurable and to control my own body, but politically that all seggs that we have is political and to sort of embrace that can also make the seggs better.
because you understand the power of it.
Trevor Hoppe (32:48)
Back then, would you mostly have seggs with positive guys?
Alex (32:53)
Yes. So I think before prep, almost exclusively, my seggs partners were other positive guys. And if you were negative, I like wouldn’t even bother. I’m not going to have seggs with you. If you wanted to use a condom, get out. So I had very, not necessarily, but usually, yes, usually it was a positive guy. It was a 90 % chance that there was going to be no condoms. And sometimes they would be the ones that would want to use it.
Trevor Hoppe (33:09)
Did you see those two things as synonymous?
Alex (33:24)
But, and there were plenty of negative guys who didn’t want to use condoms, but I sort of didn’t want to bother with them. So that was, that was the, I think the big distinction. And then PrEP happened and all of a sudden I started having seggs with negative guys that I’d never had seggs with. And so that simply sort of expanded my field of opportunities.
Trevor Hoppe (33:43)
So what is it about, I think people, I have an understanding of probably what you’re looking for, but just to put a pen on it, because I’m curious, like, condomless seggs, what is different for you?
Alex (33:57)
I mean, so most basic part of it is just sort of the feeling that you have sensation wise when you’re having seggs with someone and it’s skin to skin as opposed to condom. That makes an enormous impact and it’s my ability to enjoy it. It also impacts if you’re a top, your ability to sort of be as hard as you want to be and to be able to f* them and c** inside them.
Trevor Hoppe (34:18)
Mm -hmm.
Alex (34:24)
is radically different than just c inside a condom. Those are sort of the basics.
Trevor Hoppe (34:28)
Yeah, what is it about that? What’s c inside? Because I’m just curious, like, what does it mean to you?
Alex (34:34)
I mean, it’s one of my favorite things to enjoy doing. And I think the meaning is really sort of that moment when you’re with someone, literally inside someone. And that moment of sort of climax and they’re responding to it. Some bottoms.
Trevor Hoppe (34:37)
Yeah. Yeah.
Alex (34:59)
swear that they can feel it and all of these sorts of things, right? Some bottom say no. That’s a whole school debate.
Trevor Hoppe (35:05)
Yeah, yeah. Not always, I guess, in my experience, but yeah.
Alex (35:11)
But they respond as if they do, right? So whether it’s performance or not, there’s this idea. Exactly. And so I think that moment when you’re sort of so uniquely and supremely connected to someone makes it great. And I also think that, at least for me,
Trevor Hoppe (35:13)
sure, yeah of course, you always say you can, yeah!
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Alex (35:38)
even if I’m witnessing that moment, right? Like if I’m watching the bottom get f* and someone’s f*** him and that to me is incredibly exciting and pleasurable. I don’t need to be the participant per se if I enjoy looking at it or if I’m part of that group, if you will, there’s a group activity happening. So, but it has that.
moment of connection that becomes heightened because of it.
Trevor Hoppe (36:09)
Do you think that that heightened nature is because of the history of HIV around that?
Or something else?
Alex (36:18)
I think that it’s sort of innately physical, chemical, animalistic at its core. But it’s impossible to detach 40 years of HIV from that. So I’m sure it has had some impact subliminally, if you will, in terms of our relationship to that. But I think at the end of the day, it really is this sort of animalistic.
Trevor Hoppe (36:26)
Hmm. Mm -hmm.
Alex (36:48)
chemical, physical thing. Yeah.
Trevor Hoppe (36:52)
animalistic. Yeah, I hear that. I have friends who, well, you know, the whole language around getting people pregnant, you know, it’s so funny because obviously we’re not getting pregnant, right? But, but they’re speaking to to I don’t know. Some kind of base desires. Yeah, there’s, I hear that. I don’t know what it is either. Like there’s just something.
Alex (37:00)
you
Trevor Hoppe (37:22)
Mmm, root, root chakra kinda, fundamental stuff happening.
Alex (37:27)
Well, yeah, it’s also the sort of breeding culture, right? That’s a big part of it. And that feels very animalistic, maybe in an animal husbandry sort of way.
Trevor Hoppe (37:40)
Yeah, totally, definitely. I have friends who joke about the way that someone else’s dick is shaped is like, it’s built for getting a deep end there and coming and they go into this deep level of fantasy about it that is fascinating to me. And I get it, it can be hot.
As someone who’s been working in the HIV field, right, like that’s the lens I see through fundamentally, but then, you know, I’m trying to like put that aside. And I think PrEP has given, and U equals U has given us the tools to put that aside and think about these other meanings that are not dependent on health, I guess.
Alex (38:31)
Well, I think that’s the challenge. And I would say that’s certainly my quest, right? Is how do we recenter seggs so that seggs is about pleasure and my fulfillment and my connection with a person and not about HIV and not about risk and not about health. And I think this is where being positive allows us that experience, that negative men will never experience.
Trevor Hoppe (38:37)
Yeah
Yeah.
Alex (39:00)
because they’re negative, but as positive people, we have the benefit of having been negative at some point and then having been positive at some point, knowing the difference. And when you never have to worry about HIV again, then the seggs that you’re having is just about the seggs that you’re having in the way that gay men did before HIV. And that can radically transform your relationship to your seggs and sexuality and what you find pleasurable.
Trevor Hoppe (39:20)
Mm -hmm.
Alex (39:29)
and how you articulate what you want and how you have all these connections because you never have to worry about getting HIV again.
Trevor Hoppe (39:36)
Do you remember having seggs for the first time after you seroconverted
Alex (39:40)
I don’t remember if it was the first time, but it certainly wasn’t the first months after. I think I probably went to a sauna and I wanted to have sort of a buffet of seggsual experiences. Exactly.
Trevor Hoppe (39:57)
Vegas buffet, baby.
Alex (39:59)
All you can eat. So for me, it was really like, you know, my God, now the floodgates can open and I can sort of dive into this pool and, you know, that I distinctly remember. The act itself, I probably don’t. But the idea that now I can do this and now I can have this sort of seggs with guys that I really wanted, I was having before, but it was still caught up in fear and anxiety.
Trevor Hoppe (40:14)
Mm -hmm.
Alex (40:26)
but now I could have the seggs and that’s where this liberation narrative comes in because getting tested with, getting a positive diagnosis with HIV is liberating. You don’t have to worry about getting HIV ever again and your seggs can just be the seggs that you’re having. And as perverse as that might sound to people, there is an overwhelming sense of liberation attached to
testing positive, and it’s almost entirely around the seggs that we’re having.
Trevor Hoppe (41:01)
Do you think negative guys on prep now come close to that?
Alex (41:07)
Certainly, I think negative guys approach it, right? They get to like the 10 -yard line, if you will.
Trevor Hoppe (41:10)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Alex (41:14)
But it’s something that they’ll never be able to do, right? You just can’t do it until you’ve got there. But for me, that was always the most attractive thing about PrEP. less interested in the sort of prevention narrative, the sort of bulls**t prevention narrative that started around PrEP. And I was more interested in the idea of like, well,
Trevor Hoppe (41:33)
Wait, is it bulls**t for real? It does work, right?
Alex (41:38)
Well not bullshit, like, bull, like, it’s not true. I mean, like, I mean, this sort of bullshit cliche narrative of like, be a good little gay boy and take your pill because now you can have seggs and not worry about HIV, but you should still use a condom most of the time because you don’t want to get STI. Like that sort of bullshit that came out of Unprep. And for me, I didn’t give a s**t about communicating that to anyone because it was sort of incidental. What I was interested in is like, now you’re, you can get
Trevor Hoppe (41:40)
Hahaha
Still use a gun on me honestly.
Alex (42:07)
to the 10 yard line. Now as a negative guy, you can have the seggs that you wanted to have and you can do these things that you wanted to do. And we’ve seen that happen, like the explosion of like come dump bottoms online. There were plenty of them there that were there before that were positive before PrEP, but once PrEP happened, now it’s become this thing. And I think I wrote this in an article, you know, there used to be a time when
Trevor Hoppe (42:20)
Yeah
Alex (42:38)
having bareback seggs was radical. And now it’s an average Tuesday.
Trevor Hoppe (42:41)
Mm -hmm.
It’s just seggs. Yeah. I mean, does anyone still use the website Bareback RT? Like, it’s, I don’t even know if it’s, it’s still up? Okay. Yeah.
Alex (42:51)
Yeah, it’s still up. I still have an account. I still have an account. I check it every once in a while.
Trevor Hoppe (42:56)
Yeah, it’s just funny to me because it’s like, I mean, you know, it’s just, you find that everywhere now It’s not a thing, so to speak. So you’ve got this, you know, you have this liberation transformative moment. Hopefully that’s a gateway. It sounds like that’s a gateway to having your best seggs. What does that best seggs look like for you?
Alex (43:23)
You know, I’ve been thinking about that. It’s hard. It’s such a hard thing to sort of nail down because it, you know, best can be, it’s like, it’s like going to a restaurant. And that’s the best analogy. Food is the best analogy for me because sometimes you go to this fantastic, delicious, wonderful, luxurious restaurant and you have the best meal you’ve ever had.
Trevor Hoppe (43:24)
you
Mm -hmm.
Alex (43:48)
And sometimes you’ve been out all night and it’s three o ‘clock in the morning and you go to Burger King and it’s the best meal you’ve ever had. So seggs is the same. And I think for me, when I think about the best seggs that I’ve had, there is probably, I’d probably have to put them in different categories. One of them is certainly like there, I can think, immediately think of sort of seggs that I had with someone that I had such an insane.
Trevor Hoppe (43:52)
It’s slaps, baby. yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Alex (44:17)
chemical attraction to that even like just when we touched each other, even just our fingers, it was like electricity, for lack of a better term, so that the seggs was just intense and, and, you know, passionate and, and hot and all of those sorts of things. But, and that was great, right? And so that was that was dependent upon this chemical interaction. And I mean, I think probably people would
considered the seggs that we had pretty basic in the sense it was just like, you know, kissing, oral and f**king like sort of standard seggs, but it was the connection. And then I think that there’s seggs that happens that I would put in that sort of cruising category where you’re like, cruising for seggs. I was just in Brazil and had seggs with this guy that I met at some seggs club there.
And he was physically gorgeous in terms of what I want in a guy. And the seggs that we had was great. The sort of connection that we had was great. We sort of cruised each other before, then we went into some cabin. And I can still sort of almost physically sort of have the physical memory of touching his chest as I was f**king him. And it’s waist holding his waist.
And all of that sort of stuff made it a great seggsual experience. And I would put that sort of in that sort of cruising category. And then there’s also sort of seggs that like, I can think of like the best couple seggs that I had. And that was because one, I was super attracted to both of them equally, which is rare when you have couple seggs.
Trevor Hoppe (46:02)
not someone you were dating, like you having seggs with a couple.
Alex (46:07)
Correct. It was a three way. It was a three way. There was a couple and there was me. And so there’s always that challenge when you’re having seggs with a couple because invariably one, you’ll be more attracted to one than the other and vice versa. And in this situation, it was sort of the chemistry was perfect for all three of us and that was, it was equally distributed. And while we were having seggs,
You know, when you’re having seggs with a couple, you have to sort of worry about like the dynamics and any of those sorts of things sometimes, who might get jealous and insecure. But I remember with this couple, what made it so good was that that seems to not be there. So much so in the sense that like, you know, it’s f**king one guy and the couple was like saying in Spanish.
Trevor Hoppe (46:40)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Alex (46:58)
you know, enjoy it, enjoy it, it’s really nice. Like it was really into the fact of like watching his boyfriend getting f**ked It was really into the idea that his boyfriend was enjoying it, right? And supporting that. And I think that heightened the experience because it let free those concerns around like, I’m gonna couple and someone’s gonna feel left out or blah, blah, blah. That would certainly count as one of my best seggsual experiences.
Trevor Hoppe (47:26)
Yeah, those dynamics can always be difficult to anticipate. It’s almost like surprise. Like the enjoyment is the surprise that it’s actually good. You’re like, wow, this is great.
Alex (47:35)
Totally.
Trevor Hoppe (47:43)
I totally can appreciate and understand that. What do you do, what are your like strategies for finding that best seggs, whatever category it may be in?
Alex (47:59)
I mean, like my seggs strategies now tend to be more, instead of having them come to me, I go to them. And what I mean, I don’t mean Grindr like in and out. I mean, like, instead of like playing the Grindr game and trying to meet some guy and then like waiting for him to come over, waiting him to be on time, they never are, you know, getting the, you know, prepared or whatever.
Hehehehehe
It’s much easier just to go where there’s a lot of them, right? Like a salt lick or something like that. So a seggs club… So like a seggs club or a… I know salt is, well, I guess literally it is. Literally it is very salty. So it’s like a salt lick.
Trevor Hoppe (48:30)
Lord have mercy.
Pfft!
So the seggs club is the salt lick I got it.
Alex (48:51)
So like a seggs club or a sauna or some sort of cruising space where it’s easy access to a lot of people at once. That to me, and as I said earlier, that dynamic has always appealed to me. And then I think part of that dynamic is also the cruising element. And then there’s also this sort of going back to this theme of performance, right? When you’re in a group public setting,
then you can sort of perform and put on a show and be part of that show that’s happening. And that can be very pleasurable and fulfilling as well.
Trevor Hoppe (49:29)
little bit of an exhibition.
Alex (49:31)
Yeah, I would say exhibitionist and voyeur. So I certainly like to watch and I certainly like to know that I’m putting on a show for someone.
Trevor Hoppe (49:40)
Yeah, definitely. So is most of what the seggs you find today, is it mostly through those kinds of spaces, like clubs, et cetera?
Alex (49:49)
certainly if I’m traveling, like I’ve ever been a city, like I was just in Brazil, Sao Paulo and Rio. And I’m like, I can sit in my hotel room and get on Grindr and, and look for a guy, or I can go to a space where there are lots of guys. And so in that sense, it’s so much easier when I’m traveling. That’s sort of, it’s a more direct route to get what I want. and I think that, so that for me.
works because sometimes at the end of the day it’s just simply a time saver. I feel like a working mom, right? It’s like my time saving tip.
Trevor Hoppe (50:24)
Yeah.
For listeners who are not in cities with those kinds of establishments, because unfortunately there’s a lot of places in the world, especially here in the United States, without seggs clubs, what tips would you have for folks for finding their best seggs in those kinds of spaces, or without those kinds of spaces?
Alex (50:50)
So I would have two tips for that. And I think one is more aspirational and one is more practical. The aspirational one is we have to create those spaces. So I always admire and am fascinated by the idea of a guy that went to a bathroom and created a glory hole. Like how the f*** did you do that?
Trevor Hoppe (51:13)
whittled that thing in the wall, yeah.
Alex (51:15)
How did you do that? Do you have a power tool? Do you need an extension cord? How does that work? I want, I want there to be like a, there needs to be a podcast or a documentary about how a glory hole is born. Someone needs to do that because it fascinates me. I love the person who did that, who took the time and the energy to do that.
Trevor Hoppe (51:24)
EEEE E
Alex (51:40)
So if those spaces don’t exist, then we’ve got to create them. And that’s aspirational because obviously not everyone can create them and there are certainly risks that go along with it. But I think the more practical one is that if there aren’t those spaces, then this is where the value and the importance of seggsual networks comes in, right? And I think HIV is the sort of most obvious one, but.
Trevor Hoppe (51:44)
Get some power tools, baby.
Hmm.
Alex (52:10)
If you’re able to create a network of people that you have seggs with, whether you call them f*** buddies or whatever, then that saves you the rigmarole of Grindr and looking for something. You’ve had seggs with them, it was good, you know each other. I think that’s a good, can often be a good dependable way. And you have a connection with them in different ways. Those would be my sort of two key.
suggestions.
Trevor Hoppe (52:38)
Yeah, build the seggsual community. I hear that and that is oftentimes a tip that I have for people too. And I don’t know why some people are so averse to it, but I think it seems like just sort of reading the many gay men that I encounter that some people just, maybe they’re too scared or I don’t know. But maybe they will never have the best gay seggs because they can’t.
because of that fear or something that’s holding them back. I don’t know, you gotta let go a little bit.
Alex (53:10)
This, see, this is where I think, for lack of a better phrase, we need like a seggsual sherpa. Because, so in seggs spaces or in cruising spaces or even like a naked pool party, right? There always has to be someone who starts the seggs.
Trevor Hoppe (53:19)
ha!
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Alex (53:36)
Because there are tons tons guys who want to do it and they’re afraid or they’re nervous and they don’t. And then there’s always a couple of them that know like, we’re gonna start this, we’re gonna get this to make this happen right now. Those are the seggsual sherpas
Trevor Hoppe (53:51)
I live for that idea. It’s sort of like the first, you got to be the first person on the dance floor if you want, you know, you got to bring people, create the world you want to live in. So you got to take a risk there. How do you, I mean, I guess you just have to like, just do it. But like, I think I am not, I am not a brave person in that way, but I know I have many friends who are, and I admire that very much, but it’s, it’s takes guts.
Alex (54:19)
I would never call myself brave in that regard. But I certainly have done it. And part of it is there’s an excitement to it, right? There’s the excitement of being the person who’s going to do that and sort of rope people in and the guy that you’re gonna do it with and your, it’s performance, of course. All of that can even make it more exciting and more fulfilling because you’re the
you’re the one sort of leading everyone along, right? And I certainly do it and I certainly have enjoyed it. And I think the way that you do it is that people just have to sort of dive in and I guess the pool is the best analogy. You said to throw yourself in and if you do and we’ve all had that experience where we did it and we didn’t think we were gonna do it and then we’re like, my God, it was so fantastic, I did it. And so we have to go for that moment.
overcome that fear or anxiety or nervousness around it and then you do it and then you see the the nice thing about that is once you see the results you’re more likely to do it again. And so that we yeah you need to maybe that’s your next podcast creating seggsual sherpas.
Trevor Hoppe (55:31)
actual sherpas.
I will take that concept with me for some time, I’m sure, because it’s such a fabulous concept. And I hear exactly what you mean.
Alex (55:42)
Thanks for watching.
Trevor Hoppe (55:49)
So I always like to end with my favorite segment, Sordid Lives and Untold Tales, S.L.U.T. for short. What’s the sluttiest thing you ever did?
Alex (55:59)
that’s so hard because I’m a total slut. And so what I consider like normal everyday experience, probably the rest of the world thinks is slutty. gosh, I mean, like in an old fashioned sort of like 80s dynasty Alexis Collins, Joan Collins, Alexis Colby.
Trevor Hoppe (56:02)
Because you are a slut!
Yeah.
Carrington yeah.
Alex (56:27)
I remember I was 21 years old and I got one of my first jobs writing for a magazine and had seggs with my boss, who was the publisher, on his desk in his office while his husband was home with their daughter. That to me is like old fashioned dynasty style slutty seggs.
Trevor Hoppe (56:47)
my god!
Definitely, that’s some soap opera drama right there. And did you get like a promotion out of it?
Alex (56:58)
I didn’t get a promotion but I got more money.
Trevor Hoppe (57:03)
okay. Get that coin. I love that. Thank you for sharing that. I think just sharing these experiences and putting them out there and being frank about the real seggs we are having is key. So I appreciate your willingness to come with me on that journey today. Thank you very much. If people want to learn more about you,
Alex (57:10)
.
Thank you.
Of course.
Trevor Hoppe (57:31)
and or MPact Global, where can they find you?
Alex (57:34)
So for me it’s Alex Garner LA on Twitter and Instagram and for MPact it’s MPact Global on both Twitter and Instagram. So yeah, and I would…
Trevor Hoppe (57:46)
And that’s just impact, no I.
Alex (57:49)
Yes, sorry, it’s M-P -A -C -T global. So yes, thank you, Trevor.
Trevor Hoppe (57:55)
Great. Fabulous. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Alex. I really appreciate it, and I look forward to learning more about seggsual sherpas from you in the future.
Alex (58:04)
Thank you, Trevor. I was so happy. It’s been a pleasure.
Trevor Hoppe (58:07)
Yay.
Trevor Hoppe (58:08)
That’s our show for today. Thank you so much for tuning in and listening. And remember, if you’re not having your best gay sex, I can help. My coaching services are designed for gay, bisexual, and queer men to identify and overcome barriers that stand between them and their best gay sex life. Find out more on my website, thebestgaysex.net. Look forward to hearing from you. Till next time.
