S01E02 – “Liberation” ft. Alex Garner

OVERVIEW: Dr. Trevor Hoppe sits down with long-time HIV activist and community organizer Alex Garner for a candid conversation about gay men’s sexual culture, cruising, and the journey to sexual liberation. With over 30 years of experience in queer advocacy and living with HIV, Alex shares intimate stories about his early sexual experiences, from the cruising spots of 90s West Hollywood to the impact of seroconversion on his sexuality.

Alex discusses the nuanced realities of condomless sex, the performance of masculinity in sexual settings, and the transformative power of sex beyond the shadow of HIV. They delve into topics like public play, sexual sherpas, and the evolving landscape of queer sex post-PrEP and U=U.

Raw, unfiltered, and insightful, this episode explores how embracing pleasure and authenticity can help create your best sex life yet. Don’t miss Alex’s take on why being a “slut” is something to celebrate and his most “Dynasty-worthy” sexual exploits. Tune in for an episode that challenges norms, celebrates liberation, and dives deep into the politics of pleasure.

TRANSCRIPT:

Trevor Hoppe (00:09)
Hey, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Trevor Hoppe. Today’s episode is about liberation. Fun fact, before it was called a Pride Parade, each year our communities would gather to commemorate the 1969 Stonewall riots in New York City with a march. And we called it a Gay Liberation March. Liberation was our way of saying, as a community, to straight people,

We’re not changing for you. Two kids and a white picket fence? No thanks, we don’t want that life. Gay liberation dreamed of a radical future where we didn’t depend on marriage for access to healthcare or basic civil rights. Crazy ideas, right? Today’s guest knows a thing or two about liberation. I’ve known Alex Garner for almost 20 years.

We even co-wrote a play together called The Bottom Monologues. Right? It’s amazing, you should check it out. He has never compromised his radical sex politics in the service of anyone else’s comfort level, and I truly admire that. Today, Alex is bringing his uncompromising radical sex politics to his work with MPact Global, spreading the word and raising awareness about gay men’s health and queer men’s health.

in a way that is truly sex positive. And he’s doing this around the world, from Mexico to Taiwan. Let’s listen in.

Trevor Hoppe (01:47)
Alex Garner, welcome to the Best Gay Seggs Podcast.

Alex (01:50)
Thanks so much, Trevor. I’m happy to be here.

Trevor Hoppe (01:52)
I am thrilled to have you here. You have been at the forefront of gay men’s seggsual health activism and thinking in my mind for many years now. But for folks who don’t know you, tell us a little bit about kind of where you’re from and the work you do now.

Alex (02:09)
Sure, sure. So I grew up in Southern California near Los Angeles and I’ve been working as a community organizer activist since the early 90s when I was 21. I’m now 52 almost, so I’ve spent my entire life working in some element of queer organizing and HIV, HIV in particular for queer men of color.

I’m positive, been positive for 28 years now, and that also has informed a great deal of the work that I do in particular, how to represent and advance the issues that are important and unique to queer men living with HIV. And I’m a writer as well. I’ve written articles, a couple of plays with some interesting collaborators. Shout out to the bottom monologues.

Trevor Hoppe (02:59)
Mm -hmm, bottom monologue, yeah.

Alex (03:05)
And currently I work for MPact Global. Impact is a global health and human rights organization focused mostly on gay, bi, queer, trans folks, rights and health. So I’m happy to be here and talk about this exciting topic, which I’d love to talk about.

Trevor Hoppe (03:30)
Yes, the best gay seggs. Everybody loves gay seggs. So you grew up near Los Angeles. When you say near Los Angeles, what proximity are we talking about?

Alex (03:39)
So I grew up in the Inland Empire. So most people probably know what that means. I .E. if you will. And then left there when I was 18 and go to college at UCSD. Spent eight years in San Diego and then the 25 I moved to Los Angeles to West Hollywood, the heart of the heart of gayness. And it was also a really, really good

Trevor Hoppe (03:43)
out.

Of course.

Yes.

Alex (04:08)
way to sort of an exciting time to have gay seggs in the 90s as a 25 year old in West Hollywood. It was fantastic.

Trevor Hoppe (04:13)
Ha ha.

And were you, so were you a little queer boy before you came to West Hollywood or was that part of your seggsual kind of awakening?

Alex (04:27)
I was very much a little gay queer boy before I came to West Hollywood. I came out in 91, 92. So I was 20 years old in San Diego. I was president of our, back then it was called LGBA, the Gay and Lesbian Association. So I was out and an activist before I moved to West Hollywood, but West Hollywood certainly allowed me to dive full.

face forward into the sort of seggsual culture of Los Angeles. And the circuit culture was also happening at a time that I was a part of. And I was doing seggs work then too. And so seggs was an enormous part of my experience those early years of West Hollywood. And it was back then when you could like walk down the street and a car would pull over and say, hey, where are you going?

Trevor Hoppe (05:16)
Yeah.

thinking about that. So how would you typically meet guys back then? Like what was the sort of protocol?

Alex (05:24)
So it was right when the advent of the internet was happening. So I think back then you had the traditional ways. So I went to a gay gym, which was in the middle of West Hollywood. It was men only. It was super, super gay. You could work out with your shirt off. They had an enormous sauna, steam room area where of course everyone was fooling around. They had a pool and a jacuzzi. And then they had a tanning area on the roof, which was clothing options.

Trevor Hoppe (05:36)
Mm -hmm.

Alex (05:53)
So you can imagine how that was. It’s great to have a good workout and then sort of get relief afterwards.

Trevor Hoppe (06:02)
And is that kind of like public play, has that always been part of your repertoire? Has that changed over time?

Alex (06:10)
That’s always been part of my repertoire. And I think I actually have thought it was so ingrained in me that when, before I even came out as gay, but I was starting to have seggs with men and I was at UCSD, for some reason I knew this, maybe it was genetic gay knowledge, I don’t know. But I knew that if I went to an adult bookstore, I could meet guys and have seggs with them.

Trevor Hoppe (06:31)
Hmm

Alex (06:38)
and there were adult bookstores that were quite popular in San Diego at that time that I could go to and meet guys. So that element of seggs and cruising was really sort of integral to my development. And we also had one of those bathrooms that was notorious for their glory holes, so notorious in fact that it was listed in the Damron guide if people still remember what that is.

Trevor Hoppe (06:39)
Mmm.

Alex (07:08)
Hehehehehe

Trevor Hoppe (07:10)
Like Fodors for gays, yeah.

Alex (07:12)
And so it was really popular. And I don’t know how I knew that it was there, but I knew that it was there and I went there. And so that style of seggs and cruising has always been special to me, I guess would be a sweet way to describe it, but certainly also informs the pleasure and fulfillment that I get around seggs because I…

Trevor Hoppe (07:20)
Yeah.

Alex (07:40)
From the very early age, I wasn’t ashamed of it and I understood why it was fun and exciting to me.

Trevor Hoppe (07:48)
And what’s special about it? You say special.

Alex (07:50)
Well, it holds a special place in my heart for me, I guess, guess, a little young gay person who was just discovering how seggs worked and how cruising worked and how you look at someone to indicate that you’re interested or how you respond to them and how you use your body, all of those sort of nonverbal cues that we have to master in a cruising setting. It amps up the excitement.

Trevor Hoppe (08:18)
Mm -hmm.

Alex (08:19)
When the time comes that you sort of, you know, if if use hunting as a metaphor, you sort of find the thing that you want and you think that they’re hot and they’re interested in you. And then you have this intense seggsual connection and all of that dance beforehand helps make that seggsual connection for me, all the more powerful and pleasurable and fulfilling.

Trevor Hoppe (08:43)
And do you remember your first time cruising?

Alex (08:46)
Gosh, it’s so, it was long ago. It was very long ago. I remember elements of like first, around the first times. Like I remember in particular, I remember being at the college, it was a lab, a science building, it was in the basement. It was very active. And I remember this one time in particular where there were like multiple guys in the bathroom at the same time at the urinal cruising in the store. It was like a porn.

Trevor Hoppe (09:13)
Mm.

Alex (09:16)
at the urinal cruising, in the stalls cruising, someone was literally sort of standing with their back against the door as sort of making sure we knew that someone was coming. And it was one of those old fashioned buildings where they have the double, there’s like a door that you enter and then there’s a little bitty sort of vestibule and then another door. So you could always hear the first door and know that someone was coming in. You know, gays, we have it all figured out.

Trevor Hoppe (09:16)
Damn.

The Watchman, yeah.

Wow.

Yeah, the architecture of cruising. I love it. That’s fabulous! Is this something you like, did your friends at the time, college friends know that this was something you were doing or is this like a

Alex (09:54)
No, I hadn’t come out yet. And so no one knew I was doing it. When I came out, I still did it. Like I’ve never been this type of person. I’ve never really held strongly to this belief that like cruising in public seggs is only for people who haven’t sort of embraced their sexuality fully. That devalues the act of it, right? So after I came out, I still did it. In fact, I did probably more of it because I didn’t.

Trevor Hoppe (09:56)
Yeah

Alex (10:12)
Hehehehe

have any concern that someone might bump into me and figure out who I was, blah, blah, blah. I went to other bookstores. Like I usually only went to the one that was close to the university. But then I discovered, there’s other places. And I talked to friends about going to these places. I had a friend that I would sometimes go with, right? And it was sort of, yeah, it was, it was fun because we were part of the currency attached to cruising in these public seggs spaces.

Trevor Hoppe (10:39)
Really?

Alex (10:50)
is masculinity, of course. And so I understood how to fabricate my masculinity to get what I wanted. And it always amused me sort of how people would respond to what I would feel was a sort of obviously an authentic masculinity. The friend that I would go with was also exactly like me. Even physically, we sort of were the same and he was a big girl.

Trevor Hoppe (10:52)
-huh.

Right?

Alex (11:18)
the big queen. And so it was always sort of funny to see us transform the minute we passed through those little plastic things that hang in, you know, those bookstores because we knew how to use our masculinity to get what we wanted, right? It’s just that we all have our tricks in our bag.

Trevor Hoppe (11:19)
Yeah.

Yeah, it was a way, I was just curious, like what are those tricks? Like what is the fabrication for you? I mean, you are what, six four? Yeah, people watching cannot tell that, but that’s part of the effect, right? Is height, I think adds to the element, kind of broad shouldered. But so there’s physical attributes, but like, you know, obviously you’re talking about something that’s more performative.

Alex (11:45)
Uh huh.

Thank you.

Yeah, I mean, so obviously, even right now, I move when I talk, I use my hands when I walk, I walk in what has always been considered a gay way. So if I have to be masculine, then I lower my voice or talk as little as possible. I move as little as possible. I don’t move my hips. I change my gait in terms of how I walk.

Trevor Hoppe (12:23)
Ahaha

Alex (12:28)
All of those things, and it creates a certain mystique if you’re sort of moving less and moving less and talking less. It creates a little sort of distance intrigue or whatever. So I figured out I knew how to do that. I don’t do it, obviously, in my daily life, but if I need to get what I want, we all do that. Like if you go to the supermarket and you have to be nice to someone to get a return.

Trevor Hoppe (12:47)
Well, yeah, exactly. Yeah, you don’t really want to be nice to them, but you have to. Like, yeah, of course, it’s always performance, right? We are always sort of moving through. And I think that rubs up against this idea of authenticity today that, you know, people are like so invested in. And it’s like, OK, well, there are limits to that. But I guess I wonder, I’m just curious, because you used that word, an obviously inauthentic manifestation of masculinity, right?

Do you ever wish you could be desired without that?

Alex (13:20)
I mean, I think that I am. I think that there are plenty of people who desire. I think there are people that are actually attracted to what I would consider my feminine side, right? I think actually part of it, and this is where I sort of feel affection towards it. I think part of it is a game. And I understand it’s a role that you play and it’s a game that you play. It’s sort of stepping into the spotlight or onto the stage. And you know how it works.

Trevor Hoppe (13:22)
Yeah, right, like, of course!

Yeah.

Alex (13:51)
And like I said, we do the same thing. Like if we’re talking to our ticket agent and we hope that they’re going to upgrade us to first class, right? You create something to get what you want. And I think that when it comes to seggs, as long as I’m in on the illusion, then it’s not sort of confining me or controlling me. If I can see it as sort of ridiculous and laughable.

Trevor Hoppe (13:58)
-huh.

Alex (14:16)
then it’s not sort of gonna feel oppressive to me. It’s just something that I can use to get what I want. And it also doesn’t, I think when it comes to seggs, what will frustrate me is this idea that men will often expect me to play a particular role sexually. Like they really want like a super dominant masculine guy who’s gonna like f*** them really hard.

choke them and you know and I never really get into that it’s so much work. And so that’s the only that would I think would be the only frustration is that they they they come to believe it so much that they expect certain things as a result.

Trevor Hoppe (15:01)
Yeah, isn’t that funny? This is a theme that keeps coming up, is just this like, this inability for people to detach from the fantasy. They’re like, so invested in the fantasy, they think the fantasy is reality. And it’s like, babe, of course it’s not reality. Like, what are you thinking? Can you think of a time where like, that has really gone south, where like, you just feel like,

there was this complete disconnect between what someone wanted from you and what you were wanting to offer them.

Alex (15:29)
I mean, I think the the example would be, I remember I met this guy and he was was super cute, hot, I would say, super hot. And I was like, really into like having seggs with seggs And we met up, I went to his place. I was living in DC at the time. And when I met him in person, he was even hotter than I expected him to be. But he was into role play.

Trevor Hoppe (15:54)
Mm -hmm.

Alex (15:54)
And so he was so invested in the role play that after five minutes, I guess, wanted to say, scene, bring the curtain down, let’s stop, take a break. Because he was like, he had this elaborate fantasy in his head. I was his dad, he was my son, I was having seggs with him, we shared this secret, no one could know, we couldn’t tell mom, it was only a little secret mom couldn’t know. And then from there it was this.

Trevor Hoppe (16:12)
Mm -hmm.

Alex (16:23)
idea that he had constructed that we had a cabin in the woods that I would take him to and we would have seggs there and then I would invite all my other adult male friends over and they would have seggs with him too and it was just it was so elaborate that I was just exhausted that it’s too much. Scene.

Trevor Hoppe (16:45)
Yeah, I mean, I guess maybe if it was a seggs work context and this was someone paying you, then there might be some kind of… But yeah, that’s kind of a lot to ask of someone you’ve just met. Like, hey, could you… Wow, that had so many nooks and crannies with the mom and the cabin. That is interesting.

Alex (16:50)
Precisely.

Trevor Hoppe (17:08)
Would you feel differently about that if that was a client?

Alex (17:11)
well, yeah, if it’s a client, then it’s performance. I mean, this whole notion of masculinity is currency when it comes to being an escort, right? I mean, I think the biggest things that clients wanted, at least back then, big dicks, masculine, controlling. I mean, those were the things that they would pay a higher premium for. You know, it’s all sort of supply -side economics at the end of the day.

Trevor Hoppe (17:21)
Mm -hmm.

Alex (17:38)
And so if a client wants that, then of course I can do that for an hour and I can pretend and perform to be the most interested person in the world.

Trevor Hoppe (17:48)
Right, for a price, exactly. No, yeah, I get that, totally. So, you know, it sounds like you, a lot of people have expectations of you being a top. Is that like something, a term you relate to, identify with? How do you feel about that term? How do you feel about these categories generally?

Alex (17:52)
It’s always for a price.

Yeah, I mean, I’m sort of classic in terms of these categories, you know, sort of in that 70s, blue hanky sort of way. So I would, I, yeah, I call myself a top and I put top in my profiles and blah, blah, blah. I also understand the sort of ridiculousness of it. Like it’s just a indication of the fact that I will want to be the one f**king but it doesn’t mean anything else or it shouldn’t mean anything else. And,

Trevor Hoppe (18:20)
Mm. Mm -hmm.

Alex (18:41)
But it, of course, comes with expectations in terms of people who want to have seggs with you. And I’ve been living in Mexico City for the last few years. And so it’s always funny to get a message on Grindr or something. And the first thing they say is, “Ay macho.” That’s what they want. And at certain times, I can be in that mood. But I want to do it when I want to do it, not when they want to do it. do it.

Trevor Hoppe (19:05)
Yeah, do you feel like that’s something you’ve learned over time? Like only doing it when you want to do it or?

Alex (19:13)
Certainly, I mean, I think I’ve learned it. I’ve learned to sort of, I hate to use this sort of phrase or term. I’ve learned to sort of set my boundaries in terms of what I want, will and won’t do. Whereas if I was 21 years old, it’s just so much easier to do it. Even if I don’t feel like doing it, I’m still going to have a good time.

Trevor Hoppe (19:29)
Right, the mechanics are different, absolutely. You can get hard at, my God, yeah, exactly. I can understand that. Before we get to the best seggs, I guess I’m curious about the sort of learning process. And so I was trying to sort of think about how you learn to set those boundaries. And I guess if there were some experiences where, that were transformative in terms of

Alex (19:34)
Exactly.

Trevor Hoppe (19:58)
like, oh s**t like this was really bad. I need to course correct in the future.

Alex (20:06)
I mean, I think that when I think about any seggs that I would consider really bad, I don’t think it was, I think it was more circumstantial than anything else or maybe communication. And so you sort of learn, you learn immediately. It’s less of a course correction and it’s more of a sort of little tweak, right? I think that the things that, I think the two things that informed my seggsual development the most were,

Trevor Hoppe (20:17)
Hmm. Mm -hmm.

Alex (20:35)
seggs work and HIV, being HIV positive. Seggs work because it helped me really distinguish between seggs that was for work and seggs that was for my fulfillment. And that was valuable because most of us don’t have to think about that. And so it forced me to say, this is recreational seggs and this is work seggs.

Trevor Hoppe (20:38)
Mmm.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Alex (21:01)
and they’re different and I can enjoy them in different ways. And there were times, certainly many times when I was doing seggs work and I enjoyed it with the person in a different way. But it helped me really have to think about what I consider pleasurable and fulfilling seggs. So that.

Trevor Hoppe (21:18)
Yeah, because you’re using your time to find that. So you want to like get what you want out of it. What’s the difference for you in terms of, I mean, it sounds like the seggs work stuff came with that baggage of expectations and but.

Alex (21:33)
Well, you know, it reminds me of the bottom monologues because one of the characters that I created was Big Dick Escort, right? And so he had this whole sort of seggs life as a top, dominant top with his Big Dick, but his real, fulfilling seggs life was at the bottom. And my seggs life was still as a top.

Trevor Hoppe (21:38)
hehehehe

Mm -hmm.

Alex (21:58)
but it was sort of my relationship to the person that I was with, my relationship to my body and the seggs that I found satisfying recreationally, that was the, I think the big difference because when you’re doing seggs work, it’s so much about oftentimes it’s like, how can I just get this over with?

Trevor Hoppe (22:17)
Ha ha.

Alex (22:19)
And there are great clients that would be done in 15 minutes and they just want you to c*** And so then you’re like focusing on the end results, right? So you get there, you know that you’re done, hours over, they pay you and they leave. And so in that sense, it’s so transactional, not in a bad way, but it’s so transactional that it helps you sort of have a clearer sense of it. Whereas if it’s seggs that you’re having just to enjoy, then you can…

relax and you can sort of explore and you can sort of, you know, there’s a dance and a rhythm to it that you can lean into that when you’re performing it, it’s just not the same.

Trevor Hoppe (22:57)
Yeah, sort of letting your hair down, so to speak.

Alex (23:01)
Yeah, that could be a good way to describe it.

Trevor Hoppe (23:04)
Yeah, no, I can understand that. Like, there’s just, there’s not, you’re not in your head as much about thinking about, as you say, the end result or time, especially, I’m sure, as part of it. So, you’re identifying at the top, you’re having these experiences, and you say that bad seggs,

for you was circumstantial, what do you mean by that?

Alex (23:30)
Well, I mean, it’s also difficult to define what bad seggs is. Like, did I have a bad time? Did we stop midway through? Did what, you know, there’s all these different things that were they bad kissers? I think for me, fundamentally, if I’m with someone and they’re a bad kisser, then like, and I just can’t. That’s an index. For me, that’s sort of bar.

about seggs has always sort of been set around, I mean, kissing is probably one of the most important indicators, but it’s also the sort of sense of passion, like, you know, you don’t don’t to, what’s the expression, wet fish or whatever. So I think that’s, that for me has always been a good way to sort of indicate what the seggs seggs going to be like with them. And then I think, when I think about

Bad seggs, sometimes it’s, like, I want to be careful about describing the word bad because it’s not about the person per se, right? So like, if you have a seggsual experience with someone and, you know, s**t happens, it’s no one’s fault, of course, but it can break the mood, right? And so it’s a bad experience. And sometimes you can have a bad experience of that part. It really, really breaks the mood.

Trevor Hoppe (24:51)
We’re talking literally s**t happens here it sounds like. Yeah, okay.

Alex (24:55)
Exactly, exactly. And so that’s just par for the course, but it can make things, you know, it can make the experience sort of come to an abrupt end.

Trevor Hoppe (25:05)
Right, yes.

Alex (25:07)
Other than that, I think sexually, and this is where I sort of try to set this out when I’m meeting people. I think the other thing that I tend to prefer is someone who’s experienced, right? And so someone who knows what they want, someone who knows what they’re doing. The thing that will annoy me the most in seggs is when someone either gives me direction,

or asks a lot of questions. Like, are you enjoying this? Can I do this for you? Should I do this? I feel like those things don’t need to be articulated if you’re good. You can figure them out, right? And so I think that helps me understand. Like if I have seggs with someone, I don’t even care if we speak the same language or not. You have a connection with them. You don’t need to say a word.

Trevor Hoppe (25:36)
Mmm.

Alex (26:04)
in terms of knowing where the seggs is gonna go and how you can make them feel good and how they can make you feel good. That for me becomes certainly fits into the category of some of the best seggs because it’s so physical, it’s so much about chemistry and pleasure.

Trevor Hoppe (26:23)
So it sounds like bad, part of bad for you is someone’s inability to read your body language and kind of vibe. I’m like, God, am I using that word? But it’s real, it’s a thing. And when the vibe isn’t there, or when someone just can’t feel the pulse, I guess.

Alex (26:36)
you

Yeah, yeah, they just sort of want to lay there. Like, like, there are times when I’m in the mood for like, a lazy bottom, but usually I’m not right. And sometimes I want to be a lazy top. it’s been a long day. And so, but they’re often, and there are often people out there who are more than happy to comply. So, that’s not, that’s

Trevor Hoppe (26:55)
Mm -hmm

Mm -hmm.

Absolutely.

Right. Comply. That’s a hot word right there.

Alex (27:15)
Precisely. So that’s not the big issue. I think for me, as we’ve been talking for weeks about this sort of idea of best seggs and good seggs, especially when I’ve had 30 plus years of gay seggs, it’s hard to put my finger on one or two. It’s always so…

dependent upon sort of the circumstances of my life at that time or the circumstances of that seggs. And I think there are certainly some that immediately come to mind, right? Some of it has to do with sort of the seggs that you have, like when you’re on ecstasy and you’re dancing at a circuit party all night long and then you go home and have seggs with someone. That is certainly enhanced because of the ecstasy and because of your attraction to them and you’re like in love with them for that.

Trevor Hoppe (28:00)
Mm -hmm.

Alex (28:09)
12 hours, whatever. But I think the important thing on that, in that part in terms of sort of love, right? I think that you can love someone for 30 minutes and have the seggs that’s the most intense, incredible. I don’t like to qualify it and say you’re in love with them, but I think we need to sort of expand our context of concept of romantic love because it’s so heteronormative.

Trevor Hoppe (28:10)
Yeah, it can create this heightened experience.

Alex (28:38)
And I could love someone I met in the subway and had seggs with, you know, in the bathroom. I’d never see them again.

Trevor Hoppe (28:42)
And never see again. Yeah, yeah. Well, it’s like we need, we need 17 words for love or something like whatever. People say there’s, I can’t remember what other language has many more words, but you know, the old saying. Yeah, definitely there’s, there’s kismet. I don’t know what the word is. We don’t really have a language. There’s some kind of connection that can form that is, it’s kismet.

Alex (28:52)
Yes.

Trevor Hoppe (29:11)
What is it? I don’t know. It can, as you say, can heighten the experience. It can just create this intimacy. And even that sounds heteronormative to me. It sounds like, you know, you know.

Alex (29:21)
Yeah, I use that I use that word as default, but it’s also so you know, heteronormativity values certain words like love and intimacy. And and we’re sort of confined by our language. And so maybe that’s sort of our next project is to figure out better ways to describe these things. But I think part of that connection, going back to the other part is part of that connection, particularly

Trevor Hoppe (29:31)
Right.

Alex (29:49)
in the 90s and early 2000s was around HIV. And so there was, it’s so difficult to articulate or for people to understand what it means to meet someone when you’re positive who’s also positive and have seggs with them, particularly before PrEP and undetectable were as common as they are today. Because you had…

Trevor Hoppe (30:06)
Mm -hmm.

You mean positive people had seggs back then? Oh my god! Yeah, exactly. People often don’t understand that that, yeah, exactly, sorry, continue, yeah.

Alex (30:19)
Yes

No, I mean, I think think part of it, right? Part of it is this is is advancing narrative that not only were we having seggs and lots of seggs and good seggs and seggs parties and all these sorts of things, but it became this extra sense of connection when you could find someone who was also positive. And also often that would translate sexually into not wanting to use condoms. Right. And so that way. And so, you know, not wanting to use condoms and

Trevor Hoppe (30:49)
Mm -hmm.

Alex (30:54)
c inside them or seeming to exchange all of that sort of stuff, which was forbidden and in many places still is. Culturally, people still feel that way. To be able to do that, you know, Eric would use the term outlaw, I think sometimes to describe that sort of seggsual, Eric Rofes sorry. And so this idea of sort of being a seggsual outlaw in that context, I think also, also

Trevor Hoppe (31:00)
Mm -hmm.

Eric Rofes our friend and late mentor, yeah.

Alex (31:23)
contributed to feelings around seggs. But I think that there’s also, every positive person sort of has this moment or multiple moments experience where you meet someone and they’re like, I’m positive. And you’re like, me too. And then everything changes, right? Like right before you’re about to have seggs, that happens. And it’s like, you know, the lights come on, it’s like this hallelujah moment. And that really…

Trevor Hoppe (31:35)
Hmm.

Alex (31:49)
really had an impact on sort of my seggsual development, right, to sort of form these connections with other positive guys and have this sort of seggs that we were having that we were very much enjoying, even though it was considered bad or wrong or irresponsible. And to, you know, foster this sort of seggsual community or seggsual network of positive guys at that time, that’s sustained, you know, to today, I think for many of them, but I think

That certainly helped me better understand what I saw as valuable in the seggs that I was having and how I articulated why it was valuable to me as a person living with HIV, not just as my right to have seggs that’s pleasurable and to control my own body, but politically that all seggs that we have is political and to sort of embrace that can also make the seggs better.

because you understand the power of it.

Trevor Hoppe (32:48)
Back then, would you mostly have seggs with positive guys?

Alex (32:53)
Yes. So I think before prep, almost exclusively, my seggs partners were other positive guys. And if you were negative, I like wouldn’t even bother. I’m not going to have seggs with you. If you wanted to use a condom, get out. So I had very, not necessarily, but usually, yes, usually it was a positive guy. It was a 90 % chance that there was going to be no condoms. And sometimes they would be the ones that would want to use it.

Trevor Hoppe (33:09)
Did you see those two things as synonymous?

Alex (33:24)
But, and there were plenty of negative guys who didn’t want to use condoms, but I sort of didn’t want to bother with them. So that was, that was the, I think the big distinction. And then PrEP happened and all of a sudden I started having seggs with negative guys that I’d never had seggs with. And so that simply sort of expanded my field of opportunities.

Trevor Hoppe (33:43)
So what is it about, I think people, I have an understanding of probably what you’re looking for, but just to put a pen on it, because I’m curious, like, condomless seggs, what is different for you?

Alex (33:57)
I mean, so most basic part of it is just sort of the feeling that you have sensation wise when you’re having seggs with someone and it’s skin to skin as opposed to condom. That makes an enormous impact and it’s my ability to enjoy it. It also impacts if you’re a top, your ability to sort of be as hard as you want to be and to be able to f* them and c** inside them.

Trevor Hoppe (34:18)
Mm -hmm.

Alex (34:24)
is radically different than just c inside a condom. Those are sort of the basics.

Trevor Hoppe (34:28)
Yeah, what is it about that? What’s c inside? Because I’m just curious, like, what does it mean to you?

Alex (34:34)
I mean, it’s one of my favorite things to enjoy doing. And I think the meaning is really sort of that moment when you’re with someone, literally inside someone. And that moment of sort of climax and they’re responding to it. Some bottoms.

Trevor Hoppe (34:37)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alex (34:59)
swear that they can feel it and all of these sorts of things, right? Some bottom say no. That’s a whole school debate.

Trevor Hoppe (35:05)
Yeah, yeah. Not always, I guess, in my experience, but yeah.

Alex (35:11)
But they respond as if they do, right? So whether it’s performance or not, there’s this idea. Exactly. And so I think that moment when you’re sort of so uniquely and supremely connected to someone makes it great. And I also think that, at least for me,

Trevor Hoppe (35:13)
sure, yeah of course, you always say you can, yeah!

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Alex (35:38)
even if I’m witnessing that moment, right? Like if I’m watching the bottom get f* and someone’s f*** him and that to me is incredibly exciting and pleasurable. I don’t need to be the participant per se if I enjoy looking at it or if I’m part of that group, if you will, there’s a group activity happening. So, but it has that.

moment of connection that becomes heightened because of it.

Trevor Hoppe (36:09)
Do you think that that heightened nature is because of the history of HIV around that?

Or something else?

Alex (36:18)
I think that it’s sort of innately physical, chemical, animalistic at its core. But it’s impossible to detach 40 years of HIV from that. So I’m sure it has had some impact subliminally, if you will, in terms of our relationship to that. But I think at the end of the day, it really is this sort of animalistic.

Trevor Hoppe (36:26)
Hmm. Mm -hmm.

Alex (36:48)
chemical, physical thing. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (36:52)
animalistic. Yeah, I hear that. I have friends who, well, you know, the whole language around getting people pregnant, you know, it’s so funny because obviously we’re not getting pregnant, right? But, but they’re speaking to to I don’t know. Some kind of base desires. Yeah, there’s, I hear that. I don’t know what it is either. Like there’s just something.

Alex (37:00)
you

Trevor Hoppe (37:22)
Mmm, root, root chakra kinda, fundamental stuff happening.

Alex (37:27)
Well, yeah, it’s also the sort of breeding culture, right? That’s a big part of it. And that feels very animalistic, maybe in an animal husbandry sort of way.

Trevor Hoppe (37:40)
Yeah, totally, definitely. I have friends who joke about the way that someone else’s dick is shaped is like, it’s built for getting a deep end there and coming and they go into this deep level of fantasy about it that is fascinating to me. And I get it, it can be hot.

As someone who’s been working in the HIV field, right, like that’s the lens I see through fundamentally, but then, you know, I’m trying to like put that aside. And I think PrEP has given, and U equals U has given us the tools to put that aside and think about these other meanings that are not dependent on health, I guess.

Alex (38:31)
Well, I think that’s the challenge. And I would say that’s certainly my quest, right? Is how do we recenter seggs so that seggs is about pleasure and my fulfillment and my connection with a person and not about HIV and not about risk and not about health. And I think this is where being positive allows us that experience, that negative men will never experience.

Trevor Hoppe (38:37)
Yeah

Yeah.

Alex (39:00)
because they’re negative, but as positive people, we have the benefit of having been negative at some point and then having been positive at some point, knowing the difference. And when you never have to worry about HIV again, then the seggs that you’re having is just about the seggs that you’re having in the way that gay men did before HIV. And that can radically transform your relationship to your seggs and sexuality and what you find pleasurable.

Trevor Hoppe (39:20)
Mm -hmm.

Alex (39:29)
and how you articulate what you want and how you have all these connections because you never have to worry about getting HIV again.

Trevor Hoppe (39:36)
Do you remember having seggs for the first time after you seroconverted

Alex (39:40)
I don’t remember if it was the first time, but it certainly wasn’t the first months after. I think I probably went to a sauna and I wanted to have sort of a buffet of seggsual experiences. Exactly.

Trevor Hoppe (39:57)
Vegas buffet, baby.

Alex (39:59)
All you can eat. So for me, it was really like, you know, my God, now the floodgates can open and I can sort of dive into this pool and, you know, that I distinctly remember. The act itself, I probably don’t. But the idea that now I can do this and now I can have this sort of seggs with guys that I really wanted, I was having before, but it was still caught up in fear and anxiety.

Trevor Hoppe (40:14)
Mm -hmm.

Alex (40:26)
but now I could have the seggs and that’s where this liberation narrative comes in because getting tested with, getting a positive diagnosis with HIV is liberating. You don’t have to worry about getting HIV ever again and your seggs can just be the seggs that you’re having. And as perverse as that might sound to people, there is an overwhelming sense of liberation attached to

testing positive, and it’s almost entirely around the seggs that we’re having.

Trevor Hoppe (41:01)
Do you think negative guys on prep now come close to that?

Alex (41:07)
Certainly, I think negative guys approach it, right? They get to like the 10 -yard line, if you will.

Trevor Hoppe (41:10)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Alex (41:14)
But it’s something that they’ll never be able to do, right? You just can’t do it until you’ve got there. But for me, that was always the most attractive thing about PrEP. less interested in the sort of prevention narrative, the sort of bulls**t prevention narrative that started around PrEP. And I was more interested in the idea of like, well,

Trevor Hoppe (41:33)
Wait, is it bulls**t for real? It does work, right?

Alex (41:38)
Well not bullshit, like, bull, like, it’s not true. I mean, like, I mean, this sort of bullshit cliche narrative of like, be a good little gay boy and take your pill because now you can have seggs and not worry about HIV, but you should still use a condom most of the time because you don’t want to get STI. Like that sort of bullshit that came out of Unprep. And for me, I didn’t give a s**t about communicating that to anyone because it was sort of incidental. What I was interested in is like, now you’re, you can get

Trevor Hoppe (41:40)
Hahaha

Still use a gun on me honestly.

Alex (42:07)
to the 10 yard line. Now as a negative guy, you can have the seggs that you wanted to have and you can do these things that you wanted to do. And we’ve seen that happen, like the explosion of like come dump bottoms online. There were plenty of them there that were there before that were positive before PrEP, but once PrEP happened, now it’s become this thing. And I think I wrote this in an article, you know, there used to be a time when

Trevor Hoppe (42:20)
Yeah

Alex (42:38)
having bareback seggs was radical. And now it’s an average Tuesday.

Trevor Hoppe (42:41)
Mm -hmm.

It’s just seggs. Yeah. I mean, does anyone still use the website Bareback RT? Like, it’s, I don’t even know if it’s, it’s still up? Okay. Yeah.

Alex (42:51)
Yeah, it’s still up. I still have an account. I still have an account. I check it every once in a while.

Trevor Hoppe (42:56)
Yeah, it’s just funny to me because it’s like, I mean, you know, it’s just, you find that everywhere now It’s not a thing, so to speak. So you’ve got this, you know, you have this liberation transformative moment. Hopefully that’s a gateway. It sounds like that’s a gateway to having your best seggs. What does that best seggs look like for you?

Alex (43:23)
You know, I’ve been thinking about that. It’s hard. It’s such a hard thing to sort of nail down because it, you know, best can be, it’s like, it’s like going to a restaurant. And that’s the best analogy. Food is the best analogy for me because sometimes you go to this fantastic, delicious, wonderful, luxurious restaurant and you have the best meal you’ve ever had.

Trevor Hoppe (43:24)
you

Mm -hmm.

Alex (43:48)
And sometimes you’ve been out all night and it’s three o ‘clock in the morning and you go to Burger King and it’s the best meal you’ve ever had. So seggs is the same. And I think for me, when I think about the best seggs that I’ve had, there is probably, I’d probably have to put them in different categories. One of them is certainly like there, I can think, immediately think of sort of seggs that I had with someone that I had such an insane.

Trevor Hoppe (43:52)
It’s slaps, baby. yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Alex (44:17)
chemical attraction to that even like just when we touched each other, even just our fingers, it was like electricity, for lack of a better term, so that the seggs was just intense and, and, you know, passionate and, and hot and all of those sorts of things. But, and that was great, right? And so that was that was dependent upon this chemical interaction. And I mean, I think probably people would

considered the seggs that we had pretty basic in the sense it was just like, you know, kissing, oral and f**king like sort of standard seggs, but it was the connection. And then I think that there’s seggs that happens that I would put in that sort of cruising category where you’re like, cruising for seggs. I was just in Brazil and had seggs with this guy that I met at some seggs club there.

And he was physically gorgeous in terms of what I want in a guy. And the seggs that we had was great. The sort of connection that we had was great. We sort of cruised each other before, then we went into some cabin. And I can still sort of almost physically sort of have the physical memory of touching his chest as I was f**king him. And it’s waist holding his waist.

And all of that sort of stuff made it a great seggsual experience. And I would put that sort of in that sort of cruising category. And then there’s also sort of seggs that like, I can think of like the best couple seggs that I had. And that was because one, I was super attracted to both of them equally, which is rare when you have couple seggs.

Trevor Hoppe (46:02)
not someone you were dating, like you having seggs with a couple.

Alex (46:07)
Correct. It was a three way. It was a three way. There was a couple and there was me. And so there’s always that challenge when you’re having seggs with a couple because invariably one, you’ll be more attracted to one than the other and vice versa. And in this situation, it was sort of the chemistry was perfect for all three of us and that was, it was equally distributed. And while we were having seggs,

You know, when you’re having seggs with a couple, you have to sort of worry about like the dynamics and any of those sorts of things sometimes, who might get jealous and insecure. But I remember with this couple, what made it so good was that that seems to not be there. So much so in the sense that like, you know, it’s f**king one guy and the couple was like saying in Spanish.

Trevor Hoppe (46:40)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Alex (46:58)
you know, enjoy it, enjoy it, it’s really nice. Like it was really into the fact of like watching his boyfriend getting f**ked It was really into the idea that his boyfriend was enjoying it, right? And supporting that. And I think that heightened the experience because it let free those concerns around like, I’m gonna couple and someone’s gonna feel left out or blah, blah, blah. That would certainly count as one of my best seggsual experiences.

Trevor Hoppe (47:26)
Yeah, those dynamics can always be difficult to anticipate. It’s almost like surprise. Like the enjoyment is the surprise that it’s actually good. You’re like, wow, this is great.

Alex (47:35)
Totally.

Trevor Hoppe (47:43)
I totally can appreciate and understand that. What do you do, what are your like strategies for finding that best seggs, whatever category it may be in?

Alex (47:59)
I mean, like my seggs strategies now tend to be more, instead of having them come to me, I go to them. And what I mean, I don’t mean Grindr like in and out. I mean, like, instead of like playing the Grindr game and trying to meet some guy and then like waiting for him to come over, waiting him to be on time, they never are, you know, getting the, you know, prepared or whatever.

Hehehehehe

It’s much easier just to go where there’s a lot of them, right? Like a salt lick or something like that. So a seggs club… So like a seggs club or a… I know salt is, well, I guess literally it is. Literally it is very salty. So it’s like a salt lick.

Trevor Hoppe (48:30)
Lord have mercy.

Pfft!

So the seggs club is the salt lick I got it.

Alex (48:51)
So like a seggs club or a sauna or some sort of cruising space where it’s easy access to a lot of people at once. That to me, and as I said earlier, that dynamic has always appealed to me. And then I think part of that dynamic is also the cruising element. And then there’s also this sort of going back to this theme of performance, right? When you’re in a group public setting,

then you can sort of perform and put on a show and be part of that show that’s happening. And that can be very pleasurable and fulfilling as well.

Trevor Hoppe (49:29)
little bit of an exhibition.

Alex (49:31)
Yeah, I would say exhibitionist and voyeur. So I certainly like to watch and I certainly like to know that I’m putting on a show for someone.

Trevor Hoppe (49:40)
Yeah, definitely. So is most of what the seggs you find today, is it mostly through those kinds of spaces, like clubs, et cetera?

Alex (49:49)
certainly if I’m traveling, like I’ve ever been a city, like I was just in Brazil, Sao Paulo and Rio. And I’m like, I can sit in my hotel room and get on Grindr and, and look for a guy, or I can go to a space where there are lots of guys. And so in that sense, it’s so much easier when I’m traveling. That’s sort of, it’s a more direct route to get what I want. and I think that, so that for me.

works because sometimes at the end of the day it’s just simply a time saver. I feel like a working mom, right? It’s like my time saving tip.

Trevor Hoppe (50:24)
Yeah.

For listeners who are not in cities with those kinds of establishments, because unfortunately there’s a lot of places in the world, especially here in the United States, without seggs clubs, what tips would you have for folks for finding their best seggs in those kinds of spaces, or without those kinds of spaces?

Alex (50:50)
So I would have two tips for that. And I think one is more aspirational and one is more practical. The aspirational one is we have to create those spaces. So I always admire and am fascinated by the idea of a guy that went to a bathroom and created a glory hole. Like how the f*** did you do that?

Trevor Hoppe (51:13)
whittled that thing in the wall, yeah.

Alex (51:15)
How did you do that? Do you have a power tool? Do you need an extension cord? How does that work? I want, I want there to be like a, there needs to be a podcast or a documentary about how a glory hole is born. Someone needs to do that because it fascinates me. I love the person who did that, who took the time and the energy to do that.

Trevor Hoppe (51:24)
EEEE E

Alex (51:40)
So if those spaces don’t exist, then we’ve got to create them. And that’s aspirational because obviously not everyone can create them and there are certainly risks that go along with it. But I think the more practical one is that if there aren’t those spaces, then this is where the value and the importance of seggsual networks comes in, right? And I think HIV is the sort of most obvious one, but.

Trevor Hoppe (51:44)
Get some power tools, baby.

Hmm.

Alex (52:10)
If you’re able to create a network of people that you have seggs with, whether you call them f*** buddies or whatever, then that saves you the rigmarole of Grindr and looking for something. You’ve had seggs with them, it was good, you know each other. I think that’s a good, can often be a good dependable way. And you have a connection with them in different ways. Those would be my sort of two key.

suggestions.

Trevor Hoppe (52:38)
Yeah, build the seggsual community. I hear that and that is oftentimes a tip that I have for people too. And I don’t know why some people are so averse to it, but I think it seems like just sort of reading the many gay men that I encounter that some people just, maybe they’re too scared or I don’t know. But maybe they will never have the best gay seggs because they can’t.

because of that fear or something that’s holding them back. I don’t know, you gotta let go a little bit.

Alex (53:10)
This, see, this is where I think, for lack of a better phrase, we need like a seggsual sherpa. Because, so in seggs spaces or in cruising spaces or even like a naked pool party, right? There always has to be someone who starts the seggs.

Trevor Hoppe (53:19)
ha!

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Alex (53:36)
Because there are tons tons guys who want to do it and they’re afraid or they’re nervous and they don’t. And then there’s always a couple of them that know like, we’re gonna start this, we’re gonna get this to make this happen right now. Those are the seggsual sherpas

Trevor Hoppe (53:51)
I live for that idea. It’s sort of like the first, you got to be the first person on the dance floor if you want, you know, you got to bring people, create the world you want to live in. So you got to take a risk there. How do you, I mean, I guess you just have to like, just do it. But like, I think I am not, I am not a brave person in that way, but I know I have many friends who are, and I admire that very much, but it’s, it’s takes guts.

Alex (54:19)
I would never call myself brave in that regard. But I certainly have done it. And part of it is there’s an excitement to it, right? There’s the excitement of being the person who’s going to do that and sort of rope people in and the guy that you’re gonna do it with and your, it’s performance, of course. All of that can even make it more exciting and more fulfilling because you’re the

you’re the one sort of leading everyone along, right? And I certainly do it and I certainly have enjoyed it. And I think the way that you do it is that people just have to sort of dive in and I guess the pool is the best analogy. You said to throw yourself in and if you do and we’ve all had that experience where we did it and we didn’t think we were gonna do it and then we’re like, my God, it was so fantastic, I did it. And so we have to go for that moment.

overcome that fear or anxiety or nervousness around it and then you do it and then you see the the nice thing about that is once you see the results you’re more likely to do it again. And so that we yeah you need to maybe that’s your next podcast creating seggsual sherpas.

Trevor Hoppe (55:31)
actual sherpas.

I will take that concept with me for some time, I’m sure, because it’s such a fabulous concept. And I hear exactly what you mean.

Alex (55:42)
Thanks for watching.

Trevor Hoppe (55:49)
So I always like to end with my favorite segment, Sordid Lives and Untold Tales, S.L.U.T. for short. What’s the sluttiest thing you ever did?

Alex (55:59)
that’s so hard because I’m a total slut. And so what I consider like normal everyday experience, probably the rest of the world thinks is slutty. gosh, I mean, like in an old fashioned sort of like 80s dynasty Alexis Collins, Joan Collins, Alexis Colby.

Trevor Hoppe (56:02)
Because you are a slut!

Yeah.

Carrington yeah.

Alex (56:27)
I remember I was 21 years old and I got one of my first jobs writing for a magazine and had seggs with my boss, who was the publisher, on his desk in his office while his husband was home with their daughter. That to me is like old fashioned dynasty style slutty seggs.

Trevor Hoppe (56:47)
my god!

Definitely, that’s some soap opera drama right there. And did you get like a promotion out of it?

Alex (56:58)
I didn’t get a promotion but I got more money.

Trevor Hoppe (57:03)
okay. Get that coin. I love that. Thank you for sharing that. I think just sharing these experiences and putting them out there and being frank about the real seggs we are having is key. So I appreciate your willingness to come with me on that journey today. Thank you very much. If people want to learn more about you,

Alex (57:10)
.

Thank you.

Of course.

Trevor Hoppe (57:31)
and or MPact Global, where can they find you?

Alex (57:34)
So for me it’s Alex Garner LA on Twitter and Instagram and for MPact it’s MPact Global on both Twitter and Instagram. So yeah, and I would…

Trevor Hoppe (57:46)
And that’s just impact, no I.

Alex (57:49)
Yes, sorry, it’s M-P -A -C -T global. So yes, thank you, Trevor.

Trevor Hoppe (57:55)
Great. Fabulous. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Alex. I really appreciate it, and I look forward to learning more about seggsual sherpas from you in the future.

Alex (58:04)
Thank you, Trevor. I was so happy. It’s been a pleasure.

Trevor Hoppe (58:07)
Yay.

Trevor Hoppe (58:08)
That’s our show for today. Thank you so much for tuning in and listening. And remember, if you’re not having your best gay sex, I can help. My coaching services are designed for gay, bisexual, and queer men to identify and overcome barriers that stand between them and their best gay sex life. Find out more on my website, thebestgaysex.net. Look forward to hearing from you. Till next time.

OVERVIEW:

For the Season 1 finale of The Best Gay Sex Podcast, I’m joined by author and sex worker David Wichman to talk about sexual freedom—and why it matters now more than ever. Drawing from his new book “The Four Rooms,” David shares how surviving a rough childhood, navigating survival sex work, and finding queer joy shaped his radical vision of sexual well-being. We dive into why pleasure is political, how connection builds resilience, and why queer joy isn’t just a luxury—it’s a lifeline. Plus, David spills a few juicy stories about taking all the daddy d*ck he can handle (and why that’s self-care, baby).

TRANSCRIPT:

Trevor Hoppe (00:09)
Hey, welcome to the season one finale of the Best Gay Sex podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Trevor Hoppe. Today’s episode is about sexual freedom. You know, if you haven’t been paying attention to the news, you may have missed it. Authoritarianism is on the rise globally. So as we cap off season one, I thought it was important to take a moment and appreciate all those freedoms we enjoy. The freedom to express our sexuality,

the freedom to find joy in our own bodies, and the freedom to seek out and build connection with others that sustain us. The ability for you and me to wake up tomorrow and prioritize pleasure, both our own pleasure and our partner’s pleasure, that is a gift, and it is a gift we ought not take for granted. Perhaps no one understands that better than today’s guest, David Wichman.

David’s the author of the new book, The Four Rooms, an inquiry into sexual freedom and wellbeing. And in that book, he reminds us that sexuality isn’t just a matter of bodies. We have to think about it holistically, also in terms of our hearts and our spirits. He draws on a lifetime of experience as a sex worker, as a survivor, and also as a fierce advocate for queer men’s sexual liberation.

He reminds us that sexual freedom isn’t just a matter of being able to do whatever we want or whoever we want. It’s also about making space for all of ourselves, not just the good parts, know, the joys, the pleasures, the victories, also the messy stuff, the failures, the insecurities, the wounds. He reminds us that even the simplest act of seeking out touch

can itself be an act of resistance. So as we close out season one, I couldn’t think of a better note to end on. A reminder that queer joy isn’t just a luxury, it’s a lifeline. Let’s listen in.

Trevor Hoppe (02:19)
David Wichman, welcome to the Best Gay Sex podcast. It is a pleasure to have you on to talk about all that you do, including your new book, which we will get to in due course, but…

David Wichman (02:23)
Thank you, thank you.

Mmm.

Trevor Hoppe (02:34)
Let’s situate people, tell folks a little bit about where you’re from, where you grew up, where you became a little sexual human being.

David Wichman (02:42)
wow. That’s we just spoke about me talking all the way around the block. I live in Palm Springs right now. I have been here for 13 years. I grew up in San Francisco and I became a little sexual demon when I was born. I don’t know any better way to explain it because I feel like I have been.

Trevor Hoppe (02:49)
Ahahaha

David Wichman (03:09)
a lifelong sex worker either through survival, the type of work that I do, all the way through the type of work that I do today and doing content and all kinds of stuff. But it is, I have felt like it has either been the foundational part of my life, aside from the many, many years of drug addiction that I lived through. It was still a part of it. So I don’t know how better to explain.

Trevor Hoppe (03:37)
Yeah, little demon, grew up, so you grew up in the Bay Area, is that right?

David Wichman (03:41)
I did,

I did. was actually born and raised in Fremont of all places.

Trevor Hoppe (03:44)
Uh-huh. my gosh. Were your

first experiences then going into the city? Was that like where you would run off to?

David Wichman (03:53)
Early experiences were, although my first experiences were not. It’s kind of the I have this funny little story that I often remember for some reason when I was like in high school, I cruised this guy at a stoplight when I was walking down the street and he picked me up and took me back to his place. And yes, he totally did. It was like this guy, he was Middle Eastern and he was super hot. And we had this very hot, hot

Trevor Hoppe (04:10)
What?

David Wichman (04:21)
sexual time that I was traumatized by a little bit because I don’t know if I had ever been fucked before. And I remember him and it hurt and I remember him being, it’s okay, don’t worry. It’s okay. You want this, blah, blah. was, I was very young. I mean, I wasn’t a baby. I was totally looking for it, but I just often remember that guy because I just think

Trevor Hoppe (04:44)
Yeah.

David Wichman (04:48)
you know, because he disappeared into the ethers and you know, that moment was over. But yeah, that was my maybe that was maybe that was my first time getting fucked. I don’t remember. So.

Trevor Hoppe (04:53)
Yeah.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. But you knew you

were definitely attracted to boys from a young age. That was not a, yeah, that was not lost.

David Wichman (05:06)
yes. I think everybody

else knew I was attracted to boys at a very young age, too, because I was, you know, relentlessly bullied and my parents even called me a little queer and all kinds of, you know, little horrible things. So, you know, which I talk about in my first book.

I don’t know that they would refer to me as a little queer, but they would definitely make the references, you know. Anyways, don’t… The recollection is traumatic. I have a lot of trauma in my first book, so it’s a heavy duty read.

Trevor Hoppe (05:34)
Hmm.

I can imagine it sounds like there were some experiences that led you down your path. you, what, what, what were those first early experiences like? mean, situate us in terms of you’re picking this guy up at the stoplight. What year are we talking here? Is this the nineties? This is the, ⁓ okay. We’re going back, baby.

David Wichman (06:01)
goodness, this is the 80s now. I’m 56. I’m 56, yeah.

Back back. Even before the phone sex lines, well maybe they were there but I didn’t know about them.

Trevor Hoppe (06:10)
And was

It would seem like like the AIDS was like the backdrop for that experience is that

David Wichman (06:25)

Was it though? I think this is. AIDS was 1981.

But I really didn’t start seeing it on television and really becoming aware of it until I was like 85, 86. Because, know, Reagan and the media were silent about it for quite a while. And it was, and I was sort of in my, I was running away from home and living in foster care and very consumed with my dramatic.

Trevor Hoppe (06:43)
Uh-huh.

David Wichman (07:00)
you know, 15 year old life. So it was not like I was watching the daily news. And it wasn’t like I was really super aware of what was going on in the world. I was, you know, living in a very shadowy time. So, yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (07:10)
Hmm. Mmm.

Yeah. And

you ran away from home. Is that because of your sexuality?

David Wichman (07:23)
No. So I grew up in a very abusive household. I was actually escaped that household and lived in foster care for many years until I was about 17 years old. And then I aged out of foster care. And during those periods of time, I actually lived a really cool, fun experience in foster care. So I didn’t have a lot of sexual experiences in foster care, but I do remember

Trevor Hoppe (07:37)
Mmm.

Really?

David Wichman (07:53)
that I was like out one night. And that is one of the, actually had sex in a Bart, in a Bart station bathroom with some guy I met on the Bart train. You know, I’m in junior high, I’m in high school, know, sophomore year. So those early sort of hookup experiences, those random things would happen periodically. There’s actually an exciting story. These guys, these,

Trevor Hoppe (08:02)
Ahahahahah

Yes.

Uh-huh.

David Wichman (08:22)
girl and two guys, I actually, this is very eighties, they were dressed like the Thompson twins. I mean, literally like they could have been the Thompson twins, right? You know, and I was totally into that. And I used to take the Bart train from my foster home to the records stores in Berkeley and go through and look for my Stevie Nicks and you know, all of my divas records that were coming out. And on my way back to my foster home,

Trevor Hoppe (08:30)
⁓ my gosh. my gosh.

David Wichman (08:51)
these three picked me up and one of the older daddy guys, was fucking so hot. I was very attracted to him and he put the moves, they took me back to their place to smoke weed, And he took me into the bedroom and started playing with me. And the other two, the girl and the guy that were with him, the other queer individuals.

Trevor Hoppe (09:05)
my goodness.

David Wichman (09:16)
on the door and demanded that he get out. They put me in the car and drove me back to my foster home. But that stuff happened back then. I don’t know how to explain it. I didn’t feel like like I totally.

You know, it was like, this is an adventure.

Trevor Hoppe (09:38)
Growing up like in the Bay Area was, I think some people like, I grew up in North Carolina, so I imagine people who grew up elsewhere must’ve had all these resources available to them. What was like sex ed like for you growing up there?

David Wichman (09:51)
Well, what I remember of it is that it was available. I remember having to take a permission slip home to be able to access it, right? To be able to go like, your kid is going to be in sexual education and this. But it was all very. It’s a blur, but the little things that I remember was that it was very clinical and very scientific and it was very these are fallopian tubes and blah, blah, blah. And it was very textbook.

Trevor Hoppe (10:14)
Mm-hmm.

David Wichman (10:20)
And it was like three days. And it wasn’t. And it was junior high school, was seventh grade, and it was like, here you are. This is it. You know, and it was right around the time one of my friends found like a dirty magazine somewhere, like a hustler or something. And there was a naked man with a hairy chest and, you know, in it with a woman. And I was like, my.

Trevor Hoppe (10:23)
Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

David Wichman (10:49)
All of those, you know, all of that stuff came up for me and I was like, I really like that. So, but sex education in school was very brief and scientific. It was like taking a, you know, what did they call them? Assemblies. When you went to assembly, was like you go to science lab to talk about sex education. It was very bizarre. But that’s all I remember.

Trevor Hoppe (10:58)
Uh-huh.

Mm-hmm.

Uh-huh.

Yeah,

uh-huh. And you’re going out and finding other sources of information, I guess these like magazines and we’re like porn theaters? Is that still, is that a thing?

David Wichman (11:20)
Yeah.

Well, porn theaters

were around, which believe it or not, they used to be on every corner in San Francisco. Now I didn’t venture into San Francisco much as a high schooler. I did a couple of times and it was one time was really awful because like the BART train used to stop running at midnight. And so if you missed it, you’re fucked. So.

Trevor Hoppe (11:53)
Uh-huh. Yeah.

David Wichman (11:58)
Yeah, so I ended up spending the night at this guy’s house, this guy’s apartment, who was really super creepy. it was really, it was a weird experience. But I only started venturing into San Francisco when I ran away from the foster care system.

I had to go AWOL because I was aging out anyway and I was living with some other people. It’s just a complicated story and it doesn’t need to be in your podcast. I ended up in San Francisco when I was about 18 years old and that is when, you know, the drugs and the sex and the rock and roll and I was very much a wannabe hippie. I explored with a lot of psychedelic drugs in my high school years and

Trevor Hoppe (12:25)
You

David Wichman (12:46)
and San Francisco called to me. And I thought it was because of the free spirit of San Francisco, but also the opportunities for work because I wasn’t, I didn’t have a job. I was basically homeless.

Trevor Hoppe (13:01)
Mm-hmm.

So it sounds like in San Francisco, this might have been the genesis of your sex work career.

David Wichman (13:05)
Yes,

yeah, because sex work for me started out as a survival skill. It was something that I found out that I could do in order to at some points have a place to live, support my drug addiction, to eat, you know. So I would post ads actually and cruise men in the parks and and survive.

And that was how sort of I lived for a really long time in and out of relationships and these other types of experiences. But there was, you know, it was a very sexual time, believe it or not, even though AIDS was a big deterrent back then, you know.

Trevor Hoppe (13:46)
yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And when you’re saying ads, you mean like, are we talking classifieds?

David Wichman (13:57)
Yes, in the pack of the paper. Yes.

Trevor Hoppe (14:00)
What

would your ad say?

David Wichman (14:03)
⁓ man, I just found it too like three years ago. It said, ⁓ why can’t I think of it? ⁓ it didn’t say this, the thing that came out is young, hung and dumb, right? But it was, it did not say that, but it said hot young guy, hot hung guy. remember, right. Cause I could only afford the cheap ad.

I can only afford the text. Like all these other escorts and sex workers, they got to have their picture with their torso. This is so dating me. I actually, believe it or not, the Barrier Reporter has an archive of all of their papers. And by accident one day, I was looking for something completely different. I was like, let me just check. And sure enough, there it was. And I went by this name. I went by a fake name.

John, J-O-N, and I found my fucking ad. I have a picture of it. I took a screenshot immediately. I was like, oh, this is so wild. 1990 something. I don’t want to know. But it was a trip because back then you had to use a pay phone. You had to pay for a pager. And I never had money because I was always on drugs.

Trevor Hoppe (15:06)
⁓ my God.

David Wichman (15:22)
So my page would get turned off. was just, it’s all such a tragic story, but it was the first foray into survival sex work. it was, it isn’t where I realized, but in hindsight, I discovered the work that I do today was sort of found, it was so informative into the world that I live in now.

Because in the initial years, there was this resistance. like, I’m going to sleep with this guy that I don’t know. I don’t even know who’s be in 99.9 % of the time. You don’t. You didn’t know who was behind the door that you were knocking on. And you were just, you know, sort of. Praying to be safe, but then at the same time, you were excited and knew that you were going to get some money and you knew you were going to.

have some hot sex and deliver and get on with your life. So survival sex work is a very interesting.

Trevor Hoppe (16:24)
Hmm.

David Wichman (16:28)
education on sexual freedom, that’s for sure. Because it’s still happening today, you know, and it still has its place. It’s still vital and sacred in my opinion, it’s very important. Especially for marginalized communities of people, trans and other sex workers still do survival sex work.

sustains them rather than being.

you know, without any resources. So it’s really important.

Trevor Hoppe (17:04)
Yeah, I guess you’re distinguishing survival sex work from what you do now. How would you describe what you do now?

David Wichman (17:13)
Well…

What I’ve done for the past 18 years, is not, 17, I guess the first year of my recovery was survival sex work, because I didn’t really know. I had a few experiences, but one in particular that I had was with a man who called me and did not tell me that he was an amputee. And I walked in and I didn’t know, and,

I assume that he was a diabetic in hindsight because when I walked in, in early recovery, so I’m still very raw, and he removed his prosthetic leg and set it to the side and looked up at me and he was just like, is this gonna be okay for you? And like, I was, time slowed down, I was frozen in my skin, I didn’t understand.

you know what, what was happening, you know, like I didn’t get to pick and choose this moment. But something arrived within me that said, this is important. This man looked really miserable. He looked very hurt. He looked wounded. He looked as if he expected me to walk out. I’m assuming maybe even has had that experience on a number of occasions. And I put on my like,

Trevor Hoppe (18:34)
Mm-hmm.

David Wichman (18:41)
Here comes David, smile, and I was like, fuck yeah, that’s okay, let’s go. And I hopped on his lap and we started making out and I started playing with him. And when I say time slowed down, it’s because the memory that I have of that experience, whether it felt that way in that moment or not, is that it was almost as if the brokenness that I saw in his face and the sort of expecting rejection.

began to disappear and this sort of light come on. it was a pivotal moment, not only in my recovery, but in the work that I do in the world today. It was a defining moment. was…

It was almost like an epiphany or a what people in recovery and 12 step love to call a spiritual experience. ⁓ because I left there.

I won’t say changed, but a part of me uncovered, a part of me arrived that said, this is the work that you’re gonna do in the world that’s gonna matter. I get really a little emotional about it because it began to really matter to me. It began to become more about.

what I was learning in 12 step recovery about showing up and being of service and being useful in the world and having a function that says, you know, you can move on through another day without getting loaded. And, you know, I was doing a whole bunch of other stuff. I was walking dogs and things like that, but this work started showing up and marginalized people began arriving in my, across the thresholds that I stepped into.

and

I want to be careful how I say this because I was almost always excited about it. was like, awesome, I get to be that guy. I get to be this person. And it was a bit of ego involved in that at the same time, but it felt purposeful and meaningful to me. And I hope it always felt meaningful to those that I showed up for that were.

maybe untouched for a number of years, maybe isolated, maybe felt in a place of complete despair or invisible. And to a lot of people, not all, but a lot of people that I ended up working with, especially in my early recovery, seemed to be isolated, super overweight.

or in some form or another felt completely sexually incapable or unacceptable. And my job was to show up and pretend like none of that existed in the way that I would without pretending. I would see it, I would acknowledge it, but I wouldn’t make it the purpose for my visit. It was a…

Trevor Hoppe (21:45)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.

David Wichman (21:47)
I talk about it in the book a lot because I don’t know how to describe it, what it was or how it works. And I call it this sense of this sort of like energetic alchemy because I can’t describe it any other way because I’m still, know, like it’s one of the most frustrating parts about writing The Four Rooms was like, how do I really describe what happens in the rooms that I walk into?

Trevor Hoppe (22:08)
Mm-hmm.

David Wichman (22:13)
Because for years it was about justifying, about protecting, and I’m this person and this is I do what I do and you can’t stop me. And it became something much more deeper than that.

Trevor Hoppe (22:24)
Hmm.

Do you use the word sacred intimate to describe your work?

David Wichman (22:27)
I do not.

Trevor Hoppe (22:29)
Interesting. What, what?

David Wichman (22:30)
Yeah, I do not.

I know a lot of people like to use that word. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (22:33)
Yeah, it sounds

so rooted in a tradition that has echoes of that. So what do you distinguish as your work from that term?

David Wichman (22:39)
Yeah.

I’m a sex worker and what I do is I provide sexual gratification to people, to men that I work with and

Trevor Hoppe (22:44)
Uh-huh.

David Wichman (22:51)
And I don’t claim to play a part in their healing. I don’t claim to play a part in their uncovering of who they are and their discovery of their enoughness, their moments of being wanted, feeling wanted and desirable. Because that’s what I provide. I think a lot of sacred intimates also provide that.

There’s a part of me that has an opinion about sacred intimacy that is not negative or positive. It just feels healer, descriptive. It’s I’m this healer. I’m here to heal you. And the stuff that I do, I would rather call it more. And many sacred instruments do this now as well. It took a while, but I’d rather witness. I’d rather show up and allow what enters the room to enter the room.

and to be what it is without attaching this discovery or this magnificent change that arrives. more in the school of that person’s already there. They were always there and you’re beginning to uncover that is your work. It’s not mine. I just got to be a tool and an instrument and a witness to be present for it.

I will cry in a heartbeat talking about it because it’s so powerful. It’s such a, from that position of witness and not taking any, not accountability, crediting myself as being some part of their healing process, but just allowing myself to show up as an instrument is,

very freeing for me in a way, it also is, for me, allows me to…

Really.

embody that experience for what it is. Because sometimes it’s not always this ecstatic revelation. Sometimes it’s really difficult. Sometimes it’s really dark and shadowy. And sometimes it can go really sideways for people. You start uncovering part to yourself after you haven’t loved yourself for decades and you haven’t given yourself compassion or grace or the ability to be touched by another human being. And all of a sudden all the other stuff arrives.

And it’s intense.

Trevor Hoppe (25:27)
I guess I’m just struck because it sounds like you’re describing healing.

David Wichman (25:30)
Okay. I don’t even have an answer for it because I don’t have an answer to that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. it’s a word. I don’t know why. And I think because I have this idea around it that I don’t want to take ownership of being the healer. And my copy editor on the back of my first book.

Trevor Hoppe (25:40)
But I’m fascinated by that. I’m not challenging you.

Yo.

David Wichman (26:00)
called me a sexual healer and I didn’t see it until the proof came out. And I was like, how dare you call me a sexual healer? I am not a healer. Don’t you call me a healer. Isn’t it wild? So I don’t, that’s my stuff. And that’s why I don’t.

Trevor Hoppe (26:12)
How dare you!

That is fascinating!

David Wichman (26:24)
I don’t have a negative or positive or an opinion about being called a sacred intimate. Many people will describe the work I do as sacred intimacy, especially when I work with somebody who’s in their last days or hours of their life and things like that, which is really, that’s to me very sacred. I think all the work that we do in the world is sacred and important, especially if it brings meaning to us and to others.

Trevor Hoppe (26:49)
What lessons do you think you’ve brought to your sex outside of the sex work realm from, from that you learned in sex work? Mm-hmm.

David Wichman (26:57)
for myself.

⁓ yeah, well, that that I’m human and that I have this I can answer it really easily because what I notice, which is really interesting, is that I will have judgment. You know, like I’ll have a judgment about a person’s body or another person’s profile or what they say in their description or any kind of you name it. I’ll have a judgment about it. And then I’ll also have this like

immediate instinct to reject. And sometimes I do and other times I’m like, ⁓ there you are. You’re you’re you’re doing that thing that you, you know, hope that others will allow to happen, but live alongside of all of the other assets that they bring into that space. And so

And I also changed a little bit of my languaging about how I speak about the work that I do and the life that I live. Because I’m human, you know, and I get judgy. I get pissy. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I try to be though, God.

Trevor Hoppe (28:08)
Mm-hmm.

Amen. We have to give ourselves grace to fail and to be not perfect because we are not perfect. Absolutely. And thank God for that.

I know. I feel that.

David Wichman (28:25)
It’s folly

and it’s hilarious sometimes.

Trevor Hoppe (28:29)
What is sexual freedom?

David Wichman (28:30)
Sexual freedom to me is really about inviting in all the parts of myself in the sexual ideal that I think I’m working towards or coexisting with, especially the stuff that stops my feelings of being free.

my dick isn’t big enough or my body isn’t like that guy’s body or, you know, I’m not young enough. And allow that to sit at the table with the fact that I’ve had a shit ton of sex, that I have a lot of really great experiences. I have the privilege of doing the work that I do. So I’m already playing from an advantage. That my heart is filled with compassion for myself and others.

So I feel like that sexual freedom on the spectrum of moving through it, moving toward it, I don’t know that sexual freedom exists in a way that we would want it to exist, right? Like for everyone to have equal rights, for everybody to fuck whoever they wanna fuck, for everybody to do what they wanna do.

You know, I would love for that to exist.

Trevor Hoppe (29:44)
Yeah, so it’s not some,

it’s not an idyllic principle where we have a right for every other person to be attracted to us at all times, right? Like that’s not sexual freedom. But there is, I mean, there are questions that I guess I’m interested in, which is like, do you think we all, do we have a right to be desired?

David Wichman (30:05)
My hope is that you feel that you find that you’re desired.

I talk about it in the book a lot, remaining curious about what you desire and how you desire it.

I like for that adventure to be uncovered in a way that is free of judgment. What does sexual freedom look like to you? What is it for you? In society and in the messages and in our imprints and in the messages that we get from the outside world, you could be the hottest, most idyllic person there is and still feel undesirable.

And digging around in that, how do I describe it in the book? I describe it as like an archaeologist digging around in that rubble and looking for those little treasures are the ideas that I try to present that that’s our journey, right? That’s our individual journey. It’s wonderful when another person validates us and says, you’re desirable.

in whatever ways that they do that. And it could be a thousand different ways. And, you know, we idolize people a lot these days, these hot porn stars and the, you know, the cis white male Adonis has been the captivated ideal for such a long time. And now as we start evolving and moving through other body types and other genres of people’s bodies and genders, it’s

it’s becoming more exciting, and it’s also becoming more dangerous, and it’s also becoming more scary for a lot of people. I…

In the four rooms, you won’t find me making declarations, you know, because it’s a book on self-activation and self-discovery and uncovering parts of yourself that are in exile or that are unseen or that are undiscovered as of right now. so.

You know, I don’t know that I have an answer for what is sexual freedom in as a definition. I just know what it if I close my eyes and I think about what it means to me right now, it means, you know, a number of things for me personally right now, you know.

Trevor Hoppe (32:28)
Yeah,

I get that. guess I’m just thinking that a lot of people are probably, you know, concerned about the state of our freedoms in the world we live in right now. What can we do to protect and promote sexual freedom?

David Wichman (32:44)
There’s a part of me what’s going on right now is that I and and I said this earlier to you before we started the podcast is that I feel like this Sexual freedom as a form of resistance is almost becoming a catchphrase and it may be because my book and the algorithm is talking to me like that, but But no one’s talking about how You know just go out and fuck just go out

to the sex club, just go out and fuck your boyfriend or hook up, you know. If you keep having queer sex, you’ll be free. And I don’t know that…

But that’s available to a lot of people. There a lot of people doing self-activation work that doesn’t call them to those spaces, that doesn’t call people to go to the sex club, even though I encourage people to go to the sex club. At least once in your life.

What I like to talk about in the four rooms is about creating connection and creating community and doing what you can and keep creating. And that to me, I feel I remember when COVID hit and I felt so completely helpless. You know, I felt like what can I do? And I’m sitting in this studio that I’m in right now and I’m miserable and I’m not doing anything. Right. I can’t work, can’t touch people, can’t go out, can’t travel, can’t do anything. And I couldn’t figure it out.

After decades of fighting for our sexuality and our LGBTQIA rights and marriage equality and everything, you would think I would immediately know what to do. And I had to be reminded to join the ACLU again, to the Free Speech Coalition, to, as I can and as I will and have done, give money to organizations that matter and write letters to my senators, even if I’m from a liberal area.

and do things like that and make connections with the people I’m closest to, speak to whatever pod of people is around me, because that’s kind of foundational to moving forward. there are people who feel completely helpless and in fear all the time. And when you’re in despair and in fear, the last thing you’re thinking of is getting laid. And so,

If I’m not taking actions to feel on purpose in the world, and I want to talk about this a little bit, then I’m also not allowing myself to be touched. And in my perspective and in the world I live in, if I’m not being touched, even if I’m not self-pleasure, hooking up, fucking with my boyfriend or…

my fuck buddies ⁓ i’m

Placing myself in a position to become in a very unhealthy state of being. And it perpetuates more despair and loneliness and isolation. And so I always say, create connections, do things you’ve never done. In the book, I talk a little bit about how difficult it is to really sit down and tell people that you love how much you love them and about how much they mean to you.

Trevor Hoppe (36:16)
Mm-hmm.

David Wichman (36:17)
Like

I literally intentionally stop what you’re doing and pick up the phone or when you run into Joe Schmoe and you say, know what I got to, I just want to take a moment right now. I want to stop everything. And I want to tell you how much I love you and how important you are to me. And I cannot tell you how

freeing that is and how difficult and rare it can be sometimes for us to get really caught up in protesting and anxiety and doom scrolling and all of that other stuff and living in, you know, the room of the thinking mind, which is one of the sections of the book, we’re obsessed. And if we’re not visiting all four rooms, including the room with the body, it is my contention.

that we are betraying ourselves in a way that can create a sense of not enoughness, less wellbeing.

Trevor Hoppe (37:20)
Well, think,

you know, community is the only thing that’s going to save us for me. So I think you have to have community as a foundation. And so building those connections, sexual or not, and they can be sexual. think people don’t appreciate that a sexual community can be strong. ⁓ and those bonds can, can really do, you know, collectively a lot. So I appreciate that, that we have to.

David Wichman (37:24)
Mm. Mm.

Yeah.

yes.

Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (37:46)
look inwards to our own community and get that house in order in some ways and invest in that community to have a foundation to build any state of sexual freedom from, because if we don’t have those bonds, then what will that freedom get us, guess. So I definitely appreciate that. just think it’s a…

David Wichman (37:52)
Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (38:09)
You know, it’s, it’s, so many bold assertions happening every day about the state of our freedom, how much freedom we have or we don’t have. And it, and it’s hard to kind of put your finger on it, but it definitely feels like we want to be mindful of obviously the political climate we’re in. ⁓ but we also have to have some space outside of that. It’s, it’s kind of a.

can feel paralyzing that sort of conflict, I guess.

David Wichman (38:43)
I, you probably remember Dan Savage said that quote recently, the next four years are gonna suck really bad, really bad. And during the AIDS crisis, we danced all day, we protested all day and we danced all night and we, because we needed to build the resiliency, we needed our queer joy in order to have the resiliency to fight and to continue to fight. And I think that that is what’s really important about that.

The catchphrase that I’m talking about is that your queer sex is a form of protest is because in order for you to have in order for us to have the community to sustain the energy to keep the commitment to align ourselves with the people that we love and care about and that we want to protect, we definitely need to be able to build that resiliency. And if you are not visiting the room of queer joy,

your body, your emotions, your sacredness, you’re running on fumes in my personal experience. You’re hiding out in the internet, which I love to do. It’s such a drug for me. Yes, yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (39:58)
Yeah, ⁓ we all do, I mean, right?

So I always like to end with my favorite segment, is Sordid Lives or Untold Tales or S.L.U.T. for short. What’s the sluttiest thing you ever did?

David Wichman (40:03)
Okay.

Ooh.

⁓ goodness.

Gosh, it’s it’s gonna sound so vanilla. And I still do it all the time. I go I go to the sex club and I just because most of my work I’m top and I’m you know, the guy who’s doing all the fucking and I can get very ravenous and I will go to the sex club and I will take all the daddy dick I can get. Just

Trevor Hoppe (40:19)
I love that.

Yeah.

David Wichman (40:42)
bring it on. And I do it because it’s a part of my self care. It’s a part of my mental, physical well-being, my spiritual condition.

Trevor Hoppe (40:47)
Amen.

Absolutely.

David Wichman (40:56)
Take loads!

Trevor Hoppe (40:59)
You know, it’s a homeopathic anti-depressant. It’s all sorts of good for you. Semen is never… Well, I love that. Any particular club you frequent regularly?

David Wichman (41:06)
Yes it is.

Yeah.

Well, when I’m home, I go to 541, which is our new sex club in Palm Springs, which is super, super fun. And it’s busy and it’s super busy on Wednesdays at 10 in the morning till three in the afternoon for some reason, because it’s a, you know, we have people who live here full time retired. And if you’re a daddy lover like me, you’ll, you know, you’ll benefit great. Yes. You’ll benefit greatly from going. It’s like 10 bucks. But I like to get all of them. I like to go to all.

Trevor Hoppe (41:19)

Nice.

Happy hump day.

Okay.

I for that energy. Well, David, if people want to learn more about you and the work that you do, where can they find you?

David Wichman (41:45)
Get Get

Well, I’m on all the platforms under my name David underscore SF xxx. So if you want to see all my salacious content Go there. I’m on you know, I got the website David’s world dot me which is to get my books and to find out where I’m at and my events and things like that and I appear at a lot of sex parties like fornication and stuff as a performer still

to this day, which I love doing. So yeah, but I’m very approachable and I’m very reachable.

Trevor Hoppe (42:28)
Thank you.

love that. Well thank you for all you do to promote sexual freedom. I am grateful for that and all your work.

David Wichman (42:31)
Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (42:36)
That’s our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. And if you’ve been listening this whole season, I can’t express my gratitude more. It has been a joy and a pleasure to bring this information and these conversations to you, the listener. And if you’ve enjoyed season one, please, please take a moment out of your busy day and leave us a review on Spotify or Apple or YouTube, wherever you listen to your podcasts.

I would be most grateful for some positivity out there. It is really hard to get this content in front of people. There’s so much shadow banning, et cetera. I’m sure you can understand. So thank you for being here. And I would love it if you could help others get here as well. And of course, always as a reminder, if you are not having your best gay sex, I’m here to help.

My services as a sex coach can help you identify and overcome those obstacles that are standing between you and your best sex life. Find out more on my website, thebestgaysex.net. We’ll see you next season and I’ve got some great stuff cooked up for you. I cannot wait to tell you about season two, coming fall 2025. See you later.

OVERVIEW:

What do fisting parties, military discipline, and chosen family have in common? According to Master J. Tebias Perry—a leather legend and author of Leather Mentorship—they’re all part of the kinky, complicated path to becoming your authentic, sex-drenched self. In this juicy episode, Dr. Trevor Hoppe dives deep with Master Tebias about the power of mentorship, the joy of voyeurism, and why the best gay sex starts with trust, curiosity, and a whole lot of lube. Get ready to laugh, learn, and maybe clutch your pearls.

TRANSCRIPT:

Trevor Hoppe (00:09)
Hey, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Trevor Hoppe. Today’s episode is about mentorship. You know, for queer people, family is often chosen, not inherited. When it comes to those key life lessons like learning about sex, relationships, or kink, we really can’t rely on dear old mom and dad for those lessons. We kind of have to chart our own course.

And today’s guest, Master J Tebias Perry, knows that all too well. After growing up in a small central Georgia town, he later joined the military and ultimately found the leather community. And he has never looked back. With his new book, Leather Mentorship, Master Tebias is showing a new generation the power and value of mentorship. And spoiler alert.

Mentorship isn’t about control. It’s actually about a deep form of care and even love. And it might just be the thing that saves us. Let’s listen in.

Trevor Hoppe (01:18)
Master J Tebias Perry. Welcome to The Best Gay Sex Podcast

Master J. Tebias Perry (01:22)
Thank you so much for having me. I’ve heard a lot about you and I’m here in the flesh baby. I’m here in the flesh

Trevor Hoppe (01:28)
We are so excited to have you. Daddy Rod, a previous guest gave your highest praise and recommended you come on. So I’m really thrilled to have the chance to talk to you about your new book and all the activism and work you’ve been doing in the leather community. But before we get to today, I just want to help listeners kind of understand you and a little bit about your story. What was it like growing up in Georgia?

Master J. Tebias Perry (01:51)
we didn’t know what anything was other than our little small bubble. I was raised in a very small town called Reynolds, Georgia, maybe 1500 people or less. White people lived on one side of the tracks. Black people lived on the other side of the tracks. And I am from a middle class family that were entrepreneurs. So it was really, it felt kind of isolated like.

We knew that Atlanta was an hour away, but we never had any interest on going because everything we needed was right But I didn’t know that this big world existed until I got out of Reynolds, Georgia. yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (02:27)
Yeah,

what caused you to leave Reynolds?

Master J. Tebias Perry (02:30)
As I became older and more interested in different things, I saw the world differently from my television and I wanted to do a lot of things. I mean, multiple things. I wanted to dance, but I didn’t find that because I have such a strong religious background and my mom never really technically wanted me to dance. She wanted me to go to college. She wanted me to do the military and that was what I did, but I did feel kind of

I still feel that shit. It’s like I’m feeling it welling up in me now. Like I should have been dancing for Alvin Ailey in which I wanted, but yeah, I made it. I think I did pretty well.

Trevor Hoppe (03:11)
So when you say dance, you mean like professionally dance. I was picturing like boogieing at the club or something, but you mean like literally you wanted to dance.

Master J. Tebias Perry (03:19)
I wanted to dance. It started out with, and then started with Gregory Haines. And I just followed all these dancers like tap dance and jazz and all of this. And then I got, I started looking at a lot of pictures and videos of like ballet. And I was like, I really think I want to do that. Cause I was tall, was slender.

And I never really had the gay thing in my mind until I started finding interest in that, and that I found more interest looking at myself as I think I may be attracted to men. So I think, you know, in the latter parts of my teens, was attracted guys before I graduated high school.

Trevor Hoppe (04:02)
You started to realize that you were attracted to guys at the end of high school. Did you have any early kind of forays into, into messing around with guys?

Master J. Tebias Perry (04:12)
Well, just, you know, just locker room stuff like you just compare and you look down, look down and that was pretty much it. But nothing moving like to the point where we’re touching and feeling and all this.

Trevor Hoppe (04:25)
What were your first adventures into sexuality like?

Master J. Tebias Perry (04:29)
We’re talking about two different things now. You’re talking about with women or with guys.

Trevor Hoppe (04:34)
I mean generally, yeah, so if women was the starting point, what was that like?

Master J. Tebias Perry (04:38)
it really stemmed from from church. So my only interest in sex was the neighbor, the older neighbor who used to babysit us, babysit us, who showed me what it looked like inside. And I really found interest in that, really found interest in it. And that was the thing to do being from a small town. was you guys go with girls, girls go with guys.

And that was the way it was supposed to go. So I did find interest in that, moved on to college, dated Miss Fort Valley State. And then after that, was hell over heels from there when I got into the military. So.

Trevor Hoppe (05:19)
the military was your gateway drug, huh?

Master J. Tebias Perry (05:21)
That was my gateway drug for really, really opening who I was because essentially I’m 21, 22 years old. I’m on my own, I’m making my own money, I’m in my own place. And yeah, I started to explore a little bit more, yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (05:35)
did you know what to do? Like what were you, what, what inspired you sexually? Did you learn from pornography or like magazines or what were the kind of touchstones in your life at that point?

Master J. Tebias Perry (05:45)
VHS tapes. I started out with the VHS tapes and then I wanted to go a little bit more risque so I found interest in bookstore culture which a lot of us do. I mean we all start out with the seedy-ness of sexuality like what the fuck can I get away with? What is the most deviant thing that I could possibly do? So it started out more like the VHS

Trevor Hoppe (05:47)
Hi.

haha

Master J. Tebias Perry (06:12)
the masturbation, mutual masturbations. And then I started with a deeper level of exploring more with older guys, because I’ve always had an affinity for older, more masculine guys. And, you know, back in the day, used to be whoever has the biggest dick is going to top or whatever. So I ended up on this end of the spectrum. So older guys really taught me a lot more about myself.

than people that were my age. So they taught me about leather, they taught me about fetish and other stuff. And it was just so different back then. We didn’t have easy accessibility to the internet. This was Craigslist and the chat lines and other this stuff. The chat line, can you believe it? So yeah, the bookstores, I found interest in those and it was fun. It was fun while it lasted.

Trevor Hoppe (06:58)
Loved Craigslist. Yeah.

Yeah. When did you first start to think that leather excited you?

Master J. Tebias Perry (07:13)
was really a combination, Trev, between the discipline that I had in the military versus the seediest and most gutter shit that I’ve ever wanted to do. It was really a mixture in between that. And once I decided and got a divorce, because I was in the military and married, is that I got to get a divorce in order to do what the fuck I want to do. Because I don’t want to bring someone into this experience with me not being truthful.

with who I am. So true fucking story. I was in the gym. I had just gotten back from Desert Storm. My best friend, Alan, was saying, my God, you’re so huge. Look at your muscles. You know, all of us have this summer of puberty where we just grow up and we become men like overnight. So I came back from Desert Storm, was working out, shaved my head and was at the gym. This older white guy

And I said, can I get a spot? Can I get a spot? The traditional spot in the gym, he’s standing over me, I’m on the bench and I can see everything looking up. Looking up. So that was really my first real encounter with someone who just so happened to have been a kinkster And he showed me everything. It started from just very light cruising.

Trevor Hoppe (08:19)
Hmm?

Huh.

Master J. Tebias Perry (08:36)
weeks and months, if not two years of this cruising and flirting in the gym, know, mutual masturbation. And long story short, I got a divorce and he and I started dating. And he taught me everything I knew at my first duty station. it was, I don’t know if it was love, but it was more me exploring. And he taught me all that I needed to know about leather. And that was, God, that was 96.

  1. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (09:05)
Some people hear the term leather and they picture the material. obviously it means a lot more to you than just cowhide. What does leather represent to you?

Master J. Tebias Perry (09:17)
Well, when I first came into it, it was all about the sex. was about only just the conquer. between whipping, flogging,

all the above, but it was more or less about the sex first. And then as I became matured, as my mentor says, as I became matured in leather and in my kinks, found a deeper appreciation for what came before us, like the Marsha P. Johnsons and the leather community, were radical activists who really had a cause and a purpose.

behind the reason of our visibility, not only as gay folks, but leather folks as well. And all of them were on this movement. And I just found more.

interests and I think age had something to do with that. I was getting older. I was in the world in my military career and learning more about the community as a whole. So learning more responsibility gave me more responsibility into what I wanted to be, who I was representing.

and what I was representing and where I wanted to go with that. So My mentors that I took on along the way kind of guided me where I wanted to go. Did I want it to be a hardcore kinkster or did I want to be an activist, someone who was an educator, a creator of content and developing people who were coming behind me. So I became more into an activist on where I am now, an educator.

Trevor Hoppe (10:48)
I know your work right now especially deals a lot in the topic of mentorship when it comes to leather.

Master J. Tebias Perry (10:48)
you

Trevor Hoppe (10:54)
What lessons did you learn from your first mentors in the leather community?

Master J. Tebias Perry (10:59)
I will say this, and this is true fucking story. Now after the first guy that I saw his balls in the gym and we dated, there were some serious pitfalls that I fell into as far as sexual deviancy, not me, but people in the community that would prey on younger guys, prey on Black guys.

You know, I was a flip-flopper for a little bit between top and bottom, between verse. And then for some reason, I just had a bad taste in my mouth about sex until I got a grip on who I was and what I liked singularly, not with everybody else and finding a desire and pleasing people based on their sexual needs, but my own. And then I truly found myself in that.

But with mentorship, the pitfalls that I fell into, I didn’t want others that were…

my grasp to experience what I experienced if I know that I can give them something for them to avoid that. So I wanted to pass on what I had learned and then I wanted it to be more structured. So I started journaling. started journaling and every time I would public speak, you know, one of my mentors said, oh my God, you know, this kid got a fucking book in him. He has a book in him and I can still hear them saying that.

And then it went on to me competing for different leather titles and leather contests. And I became more visible, more well known, which is an honor. You know, it’s an honor. And that’s how mentorship really shaped and helped me find out what my strengths were and how to use my weaknesses for my strengths. So yeah, that’s how it came about.

Trevor Hoppe (12:49)
You mentioned a Black gay man in those spaces and you’ve written a lot about that. What was that like bringing your whole self to that community?

Master J. Tebias Perry (13:00)
know, that’s something that I had to learn also through trial and error as well. Because I’ve heard white leather men say to other white men, white leather men and women that Black people do not look good in leather. Black men in dreads do not look good in leather. So in order to flex what I know,

Trevor Hoppe (13:18)
Mm.

Master J. Tebias Perry (13:27)
turn that anger into more. So I formed a class called People of Color Navigating White Dominated Spaces. This is one of the first classes that I taught. And it really showed me that we’re more alike than we are apart.

Trevor Hoppe (13:38)
Wow.

Trevor Hoppe (13:45)
What was your first IML like?

Master J. Tebias Perry (13:47)
That’s a good question. Actually, my first IML, I did with two of my best friends, Leon and Sean, and we knew nothing about the magnitude of IML.

queen friend made I wanted something like a kilt and there are pictures of me on my Facebook and this thing was with it was with what’s the drag queen used the glue like the

the glue gun, glued me

a kilt together and you know when you put it on my god my chest and my arms were looking good and as we were going to the onyx party back then the kilt was literally falling apart piece by piece. mean like it was in like slats the little slats like this long and it was like each slap was falling apart but I learned so much about how

you know, we think that because we’re younger, we’re invincible. Everyone wants us. And I was just the laughing stock of all of it. I really was looking back now because this thing was falling apart. And it was was hilarious. But the first, my first IML like,

Trevor Hoppe (14:49)
Aww.

Master J. Tebias Perry (15:01)
2005, 2006, it was a mess. A lot of good sex, but horrible experience with my wardrobe. Horrible. Big time. Big time. Big time.

Trevor Hoppe (15:11)
Aw, Mordra malfunction. I love that.

What do you think, why do people travel from far and wide to come to leather events? this is, IML is one of them, but there are many, leather events around the world even. What do people make the pilgrimage for?

Master J. Tebias Perry (15:31)
People come for various reasons, Trev. They come for sex. They come for the brotherhood. They come for the camaraderie. They come for friendships. They come for the debauchery of it all. So, I mean, for me, it’s become more purposeful because now that someone who I mentor is currently

IML Someone who I mentor now is IML. And that is for me looking outside into myself,

Trevor Hoppe (15:57)
That’s cool.

Master J. Tebias Perry (16:03)
some things and qualities and fixings that you poured into one person. And to see that work come out into full fruition is a powerful fucking thing. And I mean, it’s really difficult to explain. Because I mean, I’m such a humble person. And to look at that,

look at that from the outside in. It’s like, that is a huge fucking thing to do. And to be a part of, is to be a part of something that you see from one point and now it’s here. And they’re representing leather on a global scale. So it’s major for me. It’s a big, accomplishment.

Trevor Hoppe (16:46)
What was that feeling like when they became IML?

Master J. Tebias Perry (16:50)
I was on the front row right behind the judges and pretty much the staff. I know the staff because all of us are brothers and friends and all this shit. And when Jamal won, it was just, and I jumped up like I was at my grandma’s church and it was.

It was a spiritual moment for me. And for them, he’s like shocked and couldn’t move. you know, all of my friends around me are trying to run and grab me like, my God, we did it. And it takes a team to make sure that they’re polished, they’re boosted they understand this, the bigger picture. And when they get it, Trev, they just get it. It’s like…

It’s like the little ducklings in the lake. know, the mother teaches them how to swim and you push them out there and it’s just so liberating and it’s major.

Trevor Hoppe (17:43)
wonder if there are similar kinds of structures in the leather world as like maybe in like the ball scene where there are kind of like familial relationships like a drag mom I assume there’s probably similar kind of relationships in the leather world of parenting and nurturing. You mentioned mentorship, but it sounds like it’s even beyond mentorship.

Master J. Tebias Perry (18:01)
It is similar because I’m a huge fan of Pose All of us have watched Pose and seen the houses, but I also know some of the house members here in Atlanta. And it is sort of similar. You you take, take in kids under your wings and you bring them into a space where they’re safe and you teach them everything that you know and what was pointed to you. So I think that there is a lot of similarity with leather.

with leather mentoring as well as the ballroom So I think a lot of ways that it is a lot of similarities

Trevor Hoppe (18:38)
It’s great, because often we have to rely on our chosen family as queer people because our biological family is not always there for us. find that familial bonding in that space? Do you have a close relationship with your biological family? How do you think that factors into your notion of family?

Master J. Tebias Perry (19:00)
And I’ve mentioned this publicly too, and I’m not ashamed to say it, that I, unfortunately, after my mom’s death and even before that, I’ve never really had a relationship with one of my siblings. And even after my mom passed, honestly, I haven’t really talked to them since that point. And that’s been since 2016. And I have friends that I’ve known for 35 years that I talk to every single day.

So, you know, my chosen family and family is what you make it. And it goes back to, you know, blood is thicker than water. And I just really don’t fuck with that because it’s so foreign to me now as an adult and as someone who’s almost 60 years old that I know friends better than I know my family. So I have a close relationship with my family, but with my sibling, I don’t, unfortunately.

now that I’ve found myself and who I am.

Trevor Hoppe (19:56)
A lot of young people are very excited to get into kink and leather but they struggle to find the entry point that’s safe and, and welcoming What tips would you have for young people to kind of venture out?

Master J. Tebias Perry (20:11)
that validation. The second thing is get behind someone that you can trust And number three, always look for a safe…

experiences. That is what’s most important because that groundwork will keep you at a level where you are socially aware of who you’re around at all times. So make sure you’re not looking for any validation. Get behind someone who know what the fuck they’re talking about and that you trust and that you trust and always, always get consent. Always get consent to touch, to feel, to explore.

and make sure that it’s fun and it doesn’t hurt. Well, it hurts at first, but make sure it doesn’t hurt permanently. So those three things, I don’t want to give so much legwork on what people need to do because that’s not really my ministry. I really am all about all of us exploring and finding what makes us tick and what makes us the best version of ourselves.

Trevor Hoppe (21:12)
I’m curious, know that changes over our life course, Some of it is about exploring and some of it changes over time. How do you feel like your desires have changed over time?

Master J. Tebias Perry (21:23)
desires for sex specifically? yeah, I want it. I want it. I want it as often.

Trevor Hoppe (21:26)
Yeah. Yeah.

Master J. Tebias Perry (21:30)
I’m always open, but I think I’m still exploring a lot, if not more so that I’ve always done.

I’m a creature of habit where I like what I like and I don’t apologize for it and it’s if it’s a flip-flop moment it’s a flip-flop moment which happens on Christmas those are the three times when I’m three times that you know what I’m talking about those are the three times of the year when I want to be treated like that but every other time

Trevor Hoppe (21:53)
Uh-huh.

Master J. Tebias Perry (21:59)
I want to do the most sickest, safest, wildest And I have a huge closet and a lot of shit in my arsenal. So that’s what I’ll say about that.

Trevor Hoppe (22:10)
I am not in the leather community, but I am attracted to the sexuality of it all, of course. And part of the reason I find, I guess, just speaking from my own self, I’m a little intimidated sometimes by like the long list of things that guys are into or not into,

Do you think it’s best to find someone when you’re starting out that aligns perfectly with what you’re into or that there are big gaps?

Master J. Tebias Perry (22:34)
I would not focus on just one person in your exploration. You have to try out many different cars to know which one you want to drive. I like SUVs, but I like sports cars as well. I like pickup trucks, but I like motorcycles as well.

I mean, you have to make sure that you specifically explore and learn what you enjoy because no one is going to give you everything you need. And if you’re in this box

all of us need to get out and explore and find what is specifically and what is useful.

Trevor Hoppe (23:13)
A lot of guys are centered on the apps, Grindr, Scruff, et cetera. Do you think you can find sexual connection there?

Master J. Tebias Perry (23:21)
God, I think that is exactly, I’m not gonna say it is the only point, but I think it is a good point as long as you’re being safe about that because with so much over sexual stimulation come risk of all types. So I think it’s a good way to start as long as you make sure you know what you’re getting into and explore. I’ve always said that and I’ve said it publicly.

as well, you know, don’t hinder yourself because just when you stop trying to learn more, you’re 60 years old and you wake up and certain things are not working like they used to. And you’ve got this gray hair on the top and the bottom and it’s harder to go out on the hunt. So I would say explore, explore, explore. There’s this thing. I used to be a member of Onyx.

which is the largest leather organization in the world. And their motto, is educate, empower, and explore. If everyone could learn that and practice that, the leather community would be a perfect template for everyone to start in, even heteros. mean, to do that is everything. So just…

I would tell everyone that’s listening to you, that’s following me, is to make sure you explore to know specifically, if not multiple things that you like and enjoy in the bedroom

Trevor Hoppe (24:50)
I just want to, I want to kind of hone in on that because I think that’s the sticking point for a lot of people is that they don’t always know what is going to turn them on in the moment. And some things can be quite, things, some things you don’t want to do with a stranger like restraint, for example, it’s kind of a challenging idea to do that on a first time meetup. How do you.

How do you know what turns you on?

Master J. Tebias Perry (25:14)
Well, for me, for me, the stimulation is the true barometer for me. and I’m a voyeur, I’m really a voyeur something turns me on when I don’t want to take my eyes off of it, or I want to get into it. So I know that it could be eyes, it could be

lips. It could be a big ass. It could be big legs or it could be a big dick. So I know what turns me on because I’ve gone through the trial and the error of what works specifically for me. Not judging anyone else, but I know when I see it or when I hear it. So it just comes with experience, right? I mean, it’s just, yeah. And I’m not saying go and explore

with a random person that you haven’t taken the time to get to know or that you don’t trust, but all of us have done pickup play. All of us have met people on apps and had a absolutely wonderful time. So you’re not really gonna know things unless you really get out there and do some practicing.

Trevor Hoppe (26:18)
Practice, practice, practice. That’s what I always say. Absolutely. Hopefully, yes, we’re striving for perfection. Absolutely. Never getting there, but trying.

Master J. Tebias Perry (26:21)
It makes it perfect, yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (26:30)
mentioned voyeurism that has kind of a stigma attached to it. It’s this, uh, thing that a lot of us enjoy. think we want many, many, many men watch porn. So in some level we’re, being voyeuristic in that way, but a recent guest kind of transformed my understanding of it by explaining kind of what it did for them. So I’m, I’m interested to hear again.

A little bit more from you on this out of voyeurism?

Master J. Tebias Perry (26:53)
get an experience that I can replay in my mind for weeks, for months, for years. And God forbid if I write it in my journal, I get to really play it over and over and over. So I can sit back and watch hardcore fucking or fisting. it gives me the opportunity

to watch something, but then I’m physically not part of the experience. don’t know where it came from, but it turns me on so much where I can watch a fisting scene or a double fisting scene

And I think what it is is it’s the heroism in that I never thought was possible. Seeing two, seeing two arms in a.

person just in sheer can still hear the sounds like in my head now and I can just get off on it like instantly. know this is a bit much but I’m gonna tell you anyway, my favorite moments are first thing in the close my eyes,

Trevor Hoppe (27:49)
Please.

Master J. Tebias Perry (27:55)
and go into an experience at CLAW or IML or MAL watching the scene with two guys fisting one guy at the same time. And I could literally almost tell.

it and satisfying myself. So voyeurism is something that it keeps me safe in a lot of ways because I do love pickup play, don’t get me wrong, but voyeurism for me, it works for me. The climax that I need and the experience So voyeurism, it’s everything. It’s everything. I love it.

Trevor Hoppe (28:33)
Yeah, you know, honestly, it’s one of those kind of, I guess you could say a fetish that I hadn’t thought a whole lot about until a conversation with a previous guest where he really transformed my understanding and thinking about, for one, as you say, it can be safe where you can watch a scene play out that you’re maybe not ready to experience it or even you don’t want to be a part of physically, but you find erotic. So it can be a form of sex education. And I found that like,

kind of transformative in my understanding. was like, yeah. And of course the erotic charge of it all is more obvious, I think, the kind of, is such a banal word about it, but the kind of, I don’t know, learning aspect to it and appreciation and.

Master J. Tebias Perry (29:10)
Thank

Add to that Trev, I’ve been, of course, my voyeurism looks different sometimes more so than everyone’s. When I’m in a voyeuristic state, I all of my clothes off and be tucked away in a corner somewhere, the people I’m looking at possibly can’t see me and I’m just going to town on myself.

This is a one man fucking show that I just thoroughly enjoy and I can replay it. I can have whatever in my hands or, you know, bound myself, put a gag in my mouth and go to town on myself. And then I can replay it again and again. So, I mean, it’s just, it’s this whole thing. But I’ve also, to add to that, I’ve been invited into scenes

from But sometimes I’ll bow out, no, I just want to sit and watch, you just enjoy yourself. So it goes both It’s sort of pick up basketball. It’s like, you know, coach put me in, coach put me in, but you know, sometimes I don’t want to be sidelines. But it’s major. is, it’s one of my

Trevor Hoppe (30:23)
Yeah, you’re happy on the bench.

Master J. Tebias Perry (30:29)
more perfected crafts.

Trevor Hoppe (30:30)
I guess I wanted to also talk potentially about power play because I, or power exchange, I guess would be the more like appropriate term in the leather community. What, what’s your relationship to power exchange?

Master J. Tebias Perry (30:43)
Power exchange for me is I’m taking someone’s power, they’re loaning it to me, and I choose to give it back or not. That’s the negotiated part where if I have someone that’s in service or collared or I own them as property or a slave, they’re giving me their power and their trust. So that’s synonymous to me. Power is trust. And they loan it to me.

And I choose to give it back to you where I have taught you some things and I give you back a bigger power. So sometimes I give up my power, my birthday or Christmas. That’s my only level of power that I want to give to others. So that’s what power exchange is to me. And I mean, it’s not something that I, that I practice often because I do love pickup play. I do love anticipatory service.

Trevor Hoppe (31:26)
Yeah.

Master J. Tebias Perry (31:41)
I like weekend service, but I’ve had boys, girls before, but that’s just not something constant where I want to be in dynamic MS or DS relationship constantly.

Trevor Hoppe (31:55)
I guess I’m just for people who are in my own edification, like does the master in your name, that, so that does not necessarily reflect a commitment to a certain kind of play or is it? I’m just curious.

Master J. Tebias Perry (32:08)
well, people get mastery in different ways. People get mastery honorifics from the service that they’ve done, the people that are in their, from their down line to their up line that recognizes their hard work. And they bestow covers onto them, which are the Muir caps. And I’ve earned three of those from different people in the community. And note that

We, as people in the community who are influencers, I would never call myself a leader in the community in Atlanta. The community gets to bestow these honorifics onto us. And anyone who says, I’m a leader in the Charlotte leather community, they’re not really a leader. They’re self-appointed because this work that we do, it is really specific work.

And it’s not something of grandeur and self-seeking It’s work that the community has recognized. And we get these honorifics as sir, as daddy, as master from various people in the community. So that’s how it’s come about. But one of my mentors bestowed my Master Cap onto me

So I’ve been fairly a new master. So mastery can come in many different ways, from education to having people in service that recognizes your work.

Trevor Hoppe (33:34)
That’s fascinating. I did not know that system of honorifics.

Is it hierarchical? Like is there a level above Master? Like I’m just really kind of think people might be curious to know.

Master J. Tebias Perry (33:45)
well to me, leadership is not about you being in charge of anyone, but it’s you being in charge of the love and care that you give for the people that you serve. I look at that.

Even people call me a leader all the time and I say, no, no, no, no, no, no. I give servant leadership. I give servant leadership. I’m a servant of my community and I have to pull it back. that’s, it’s a grounding thing because when you are,

in our leather journey, people call you Master Tebias And, you know, once upon a time they called me Sir Tebias This is a honor that’s bestowed to us and it’s not something that should be taken lightly. And it’s not a lifestyle, it’s a life. It really is a life that we give to the people that we serve. And that’s, that’s just the way I look at it. I look at the community as people that I serve and I teach and I educate and

being called master is something that is, it’s a huge honor. And I take a real life responsibility in honoring the people that I serve.

Trevor Hoppe (34:56)
I love that. That’s, I mean, it’s beautiful. I, I literally, I did not know that system. So I really appreciate your explanation of it. I’m sure people listening will find it helpful as well.

Master J. Tebias Perry (35:05)
hierarchy

really. There’s, I mean, yeah, a sir, a daddy, a master, we’re all servants, you know, in one way or another. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (35:07)
That makes more sense to me now the way you explained it there. Yeah.

Yeah,

I love that. It’s really beautiful. I want to talk about your book and mentorship and what, what, what

What did you want the book to do and how have you seen that play out on the ground?

Master J. Tebias Perry (35:30)
It’s been so many different things. The book started out with one way. wanted to, like I said earlier, I wanted mentorship to be something that was a succession plan to make sure people did not fall into the pitfalls that I fell into. So I wanted to put something together that was very subject matter specific that you didn’t have to read the whole

500 page book just to get the gist of what I was saying. So I started out with writing certain chapters of subject matters that I know I have proficiency in. And I wrote the chapters down and I just started talking about it. I just started talking about each subject that I knew about and that I had experience in. And I wrote on them until I felt that they were full enough with the information, I had the tools.

for someone else to use. what really taught me and what really made this book

special is understanding the difference between A disagreement and disrespect because that is a huge fucking difference. as I moved into leadership roles, I’ve understood that more clear. We can disagree all day long, but when that disagreement turns into disrespect, I’m going to step away.

Trevor Hoppe (36:38)
Hmm.

Master J. Tebias Perry (36:57)
before I do something that I’ll regret and you surely will regret. you know, I’ve just, it’s a mastery in learning the art of listening to understand, not listening to respond. And I found so much in writing this And I couldn’t have done it without having those tools from Master Bruce, from Master Lily.

and other mentors that I look up to in the community. So all of them are wrapped up into all of these pages that are presented publicly now in other mentorships.

Trevor Hoppe (37:36)
the experience been with people receiving the book?

Master J. Tebias Perry (37:39)
my friends were like, we’re going to go on tour. We’re going to do a five city tour.

right after M.A.L. in D.C. We did D.C., we did Baltimore, we did Philly, we did New York. after M.A.L. we sold all the books, all the t-shirts. It is a labor of love. receiving the book everywhere I go, everywhere I go, Trevor.

someone is asking me something about chapter four, about chapter 16, about the Butterfly Effect, about the forward that Vince Andrews wrote. And Vince Andrews is a good friend of mine. He has several bodies of work out there. And I think it’s been received very well. I’m really shocked and I’m proud of it all at the same time. So I’m just, it’s emotional. mean, it’s emotional because

leather mentorship being my baby, even me wearing a leather dress, gloves. It’s a powerful thing because, you know, the masculinity of the book says a lot with a man, a leather man wearing a leather dress. So it’s just all around powerful.

Trevor Hoppe (38:51)
I noticed that on your Instagram I was kind of perusing through and you definitely play with gender a little bit. think some challenged by the rigidity of kind of old guard masculinity in the leather scene. that seems to be changing. What do you see as the relationship between masculinity and the leather community?

How do you make sense of that?

Master J. Tebias Perry (39:14)
as long as you show up as yourself in a dress, heels, or in the most Tom of Tom of Finland that you could wear, as long as you show up authentically as yourself, that’s really all that matters. So as I’ve gotten older

My ideas of masculinity has changed where now I can be in a 47 pound leather skirt and feel just as masculine as wearing a tight pair of ball-crushing leather pants. So I look at masculinity as something that is inner more so than outward now. So I look at my comfort level of how I show up.

as long as it’s authentically myself, that’s all that really matters. So I look more of the inward expression of myself than outward expression.

that’s all that matters.

Trevor Hoppe (40:07)
As a black man, how does that shape your relationship to masculinity, particularly thinking in the leather community?

Master J. Tebias Perry (40:13)
religion, Trevor, has fucked us up. Religion has given us this scale of what masculinity looks like and what it shouldn’t look like. Notice I didn’t say what it doesn’t look like, but what it should look like. And religion has given us this standard. Put kink on top of that and layer

the masculinity and femininity and all of So I would say do some soul searching and find yourself no matter what it looks like and just be free and have fun

men wore dresses in the Bible before. So it changes up and down. You know, this new guard thing that people are doing now, as old as I am, I’ve embraced it. And in order for us to still capture the ear of the younger guard as someone who’s rooted in old guard, we have to

embrace that. Or, unfortunately, we will be left behind. I mean, the world looks different than 1997, 2000s. So we have to embrace what’s to come.

Trevor Hoppe (41:17)
Mm-hmm.

Master J. Tebias Perry (41:23)
Like we had to embrace what’s to come. They have to embrace us and we have to embrace them as well. So it’s a give and take.

Trevor Hoppe (41:30)
Hmm.

Yeah. Change can be hard. Obviously I can only imagine, the conversations happening within IML about all that must be spirited. I’m sure. But I wanted to make sure I got to the topic of the podcast.

best gay sex and understand a little bit about what you think for you. What does it take to have the best gay sex?

Master J. Tebias Perry (41:51)
The best gay sex. I would say make sure that you have the right kind of lube and make sure that you are working within your limits. That’s the best advice I could give because I mean some people are conquerors when they know that the mountain that they want to climb, that that mountain is too big for them. So lots of lube.

and know what your limits are. Know what your limits are.

Trevor Hoppe (42:19)
I like it. Amen to that. Absolutely.

when you look back at, mean, obviously many experiences. What do you think the qualities for you are of those encounters that were like, you’re like, man, that was the best.

Master J. Tebias Perry (42:35)
Going back to a little bit of power exchange. Whenever I’m in those three times a year, those three times of the year, I do like to flip-flop. And the most enjoyable part of that is for me to let go.

but because of public scrutiny and us putting ourselves on the chopping block in a way to be socially responsible, I have to be cognizant of shit that I say. I still do. I do. So I bear that responsibility. But the best way for me to reach that level of vulnerability with that person.

3000 years and I feel so free whenever I’m experiencing that and it has to unfortunately or fortunately come from the most masculine experience from the dom side of them to me that I can get and it looks

It’s like I’m just being slutted out. It looks almost like I’m being slutted out because I’m in service as a dom so much in play and in different scenes. Those three times means a lot to me. And when I want it, I fucking want it and I want all of it. I’m just saying. Sex looks like for me is I want to be dominated.

Trevor Hoppe (43:37)
Haha.

Amen to that.

Master J. Tebias Perry (44:01)
I’m

Trevor Hoppe (44:02)
Who can relate?

With kind of role play scenarios, when you talked about being slutted out, right? Does it ever start to feel scripted? And if so, how do you like shake that?

Master J. Tebias Perry (44:17)
I’ve never looked at leather and pickup plate as role play. Though with some people I’ve heard it, I’ve seen it, that this is a role for them. This is authentically who I am. Like me going into a scene.

what is part of sex and the words in the exchange of dialogue that we have. This is authentically that I found who this person really is and this is exactly who I am. When I’m just consensually or when I have my arm up to my elbow in your ass, this is authentically who I am. So I don’t find

my description as role-play. I really, really don’t. So the dom, dom sub, daddy boy, master slave.

dynamic, this is exactly who the fuck I am. It’s nothing about the role play of it. Even my aftercare, even my aftercare that I give after a scene, they’re like, you know, I’m fine, I’m fine. This is, and I’m bringing them down off of a ledge. This is the caring person that I am or the sexual deviant that I am, the sadistic fucker that I am.

This is authentically who I am behind these nerdy glasses. So I just, I don’t see any forms of that in what I do. No.

Trevor Hoppe (45:47)
Yeah. No, that’s really helpful. I appreciate that so much because people outside the community, I think that will help them understand what it’s like to be part of the community that it’s for some people may be role play, but as you say, it’s not necessarily that it can be something else too. So I really appreciate that clarification. I always like to end with my favorite.

segment, is called Sordid Lives and Untold Tales or SLUT for short. What’s the sluttiest thing you ever did?

Master J. Tebias Perry (46:17)
ever done was actually in Berlin at laboratory. Have you been?

Trevor Hoppe (46:22)
well that makes sense.

I have not myself, but many of my friends have.

Master J. Tebias Perry (46:26)
my God, it is a, it is literally a sea, a sea of slings and debauchery of men. And

as many people as I could. And this just happened.

Bye.

Trevor Hoppe (46:42)
Nice.

Master J. Tebias Perry (46:43)
I just went around randomly putting my dick in every single hole.

I think what was most liberating from it because you when you show up in these spaces you don’t know who’s going to be attracted to you if it’s mutual or if it’s not but obviously I was the pick of the litter for that night but I it was just so liberating just to anyway that was the sluttiest thing that I’ve ever done was just put my guards down and fuck as many people as I could yeah

at the Love Talk.

Trevor Hoppe (47:19)
Yeah, it’s like the opposite

of the, it’s the opposite of the no loads refuse bottom. You’re like the no hole refuse top. love it. Yes, I’ve heard, I’ve heard of the horse. Well, yeah. If people, I would be fascinated to go for real. It would be, it just like sociologically I’d be very fascinated.

Master J. Tebias Perry (47:26)
Horse market. Horse market. It’s like horse market.

take you to one.

Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (47:41)
If people want to learn more about you and your book, where can they find you online?

Master J. Tebias Perry (47:45)
on my Instagram you can also find me on Facebook under J Tebias Perry. Don’t send me a friend request unless you inbox me first because I will delete them. So no random friend requests. And you can also find me

Trevor Hoppe (48:00)
Of course, yeah, Instagram is

good for that.

Master J. Tebias Perry (48:03)
Yeah, you can also find me under Bulge Features, International House of Bulge on Instagram.

Trevor Hoppe (48:11)
Fabulous. Well, I hope I see you at IML.

Master J. Tebias Perry (48:14)
It’s going.

Trevor Hoppe (48:15)
I

Master J. Tebias Perry (48:16)
I gotta show you the ropes. I gotta show you the ropes Thank you so much for the body of work that you do for the community. And thank you so much for having me today. Thank you.

Trevor Hoppe (48:18)
I can’t

Fabulous, I look forward to it.

likewise. Thank you. I got to know your work and I’m obsessed. So I’m excited to see and follow your career.

Trevor Hoppe (48:36)
That’s our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. Always grateful. And remember, if you’re thinking, wouldn’t it be great to talk to me about your sex life, kind of hash out some issues that you’ve been facing, my services as a sex coach are designed to help you identify and overcome those obstacles that are standing between you and your best sex life. Find out more on my website, thebestgaysex.net.

Till next time.

OVERVIEW:

What does it mean to be a man? For many of us gay boys, masculinity wasn’t a choice—it was something we were punished for lacking. From childhood bullying to family silence, we grew up navigating a world that demanded we toughen up. But what if masculinity isn’t all bad? What if we can reclaim the good parts without the toxic baggage. This week, I’m joined by sexual health advocate and content creator Nolberto Gonzalez, who’s spent his career helping gay men cultivate pleasure, confidence, and consent. We reflect on our queer boyhoods, the pressures of masculinity, and how we can redefine it for ourselves. Plus, Nolberto spills on his first gangbang as a bottom—because, of course, we do.

TRANSCRIPT:

Trevor Hoppe (00:09)
Hey, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Trevor Hoppe. Today’s episode is about masculinity, a topic close to my heart, not in the way you might think. Like many effeminate gay men, I grew up a little, how do you say, limp-wristed, a little light in the loafers. I had this big goofy gran as a child and a penchant for playing with my neighbor’s Barbies, admittedly.

rather than my own Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, although I did like the turtles, not gonna lie. But when puberty hit my classmates, my happy life descended into a nightmare of bullying and beatings. My classmates called me the F-sler long before I even knew what that word meant or that I had something called a sexuality. I sometimes say that I came out at age 14, but that’s…

a little bit of a lie, like lots of effeminate boys, I didn’t really have the luxury of staying closeted or coming out. It was written on my face. Today’s guests may have grown up thousands of miles away in Puebla, Mexico, in a totally different cultural context. But we share a common experience of growing up as a little queer boy. Noberto Gonzalez.

is a sexual health advocate, activist, turned content creator who has made promoting healthy sexuality his mission in life. For over a decade, he has led erotic hands-on workshops tailored and designed to gay men called Sessiones Explicitas.

And in today’s episode, we pause to reflect not just on those toxic elements of masculinity that made our childhoods so traumatic, but we also brainstorm how can we salvage and recuperate those positive aspects of masculinity, and they do exist, on our journey towards healing. Let’s listen in.

Trevor Hoppe (02:22)
Nolberto Gonzalez, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast.

Nolberto (02:26)
Thank you for inviting me. I feel like very honored because I always like to talk with you. Our conversations are always fun, are always interesting, are always deep. And they have always this personal ingredient that is not just about theory, even if we talk about theory. And that’s what I think. It’s fabulous about you. One of the…

Trevor Hoppe (02:33)
It is a pleasure.

Nolberto (02:54)
hundreds of fabulous things to you all. So thank you.

Trevor Hoppe (02:59)
Absolutely. We met long ago

back in 2007 at a conference in Pueblo where you are from. So can you tell viewers and listeners a little bit about kind of situate them where you’re from, how, where you grew up and, where you became like a little sexual being.

Nolberto (03:03)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, I was born in Puebla, which is a very, not a very, very, very small town now. It kind of became big. Two hours far from Mexican city. It’s a very conservative place. It’s a very Catholic place. And I started to get involved in sexuality issues more like in the equivalent of high school.

you and when I started my university studies. First I was interested in sexual health in general and then my path went to HIV prevention and sexual and reproductive rights and then I started to do some work with my own body and my own image about trying to work some kind of some issues around about self-esteem in my image.

how I was perceiving myself and then I started to make some pictures of me every time with less and less clothes and then I started to make adult content and I was like balancing, know, like exploring both sides in parallel. Around these years, that’s when I met you, it was starting to get…

into conferences and seminars and all this academic stuff and in the meanwhile I was like exploring my sexual life first in terms of my body not just in terms of how it’s of how I saw my body or how I perceived my body but also in terms of perceptions of feelings you know like

physical pleasure and this elaborated pleasure. It’s a path that I have continued from all until today, of course.

Trevor Hoppe (04:59)
You, talked about growing up in Puebla and being a very Catholic conservative place. Tell me a little bit about what it was, let’s be like a little queer boy in a context like that.

Nolberto (04:59)
Wow.

Mm-hmm.

It’s very very very hard. It’s like like tons of people will be will feel related it’s a kind of a it’s kind of strange how lots of us have been like together in this feeling of isolation you know

Like being queer in a small place, in a place that is very conservative, in a place that doesn’t have a space for you. I remember, for example, every Christmas, I hated Christmas. And I remember Christmas as this period of time when I was punished for being myself in terms of…

you know, the big family gets reunited and here we don’t buy stuff for everyone because the families are huge in here. So we, we, what’s the word? We write down the names of everyone in little papers and then we give it. Okay. That’s, that’s it. So I remember that every year when someone got my name out of it,

Trevor Hoppe (06:09)
We call it a white elephant. Yeah. Yeah.

Nolberto (06:19)
They have a few weeks of course to buy a present for I remember that I was All the presents that I received were very very disappointed. Sometimes they were kind of cruel. I remember that I was like 10, 11 years old. And I received like a bucket of this kind of giant Lego that are for childs.

that I like in kindergarten because I was like, okay, these people doesn’t know me. And I remember when I was like 13 years, because I have always been like very, I have always you can always tell that I’m not heterosexual, course, you know? And that happens since I was a little child.

So I remember when I was like 30 years old, an uncle of mine gave me an image of Jesus Christ in a cross, like one meter tall. And I was like, okay, this is a statement, you know? And I was like, okay. And everyone else got phrases that they kind of liked because they have always…

Trevor Hoppe (07:19)
Wow.

Nolberto (07:28)
talked about what they wanted, they always talked about their desires, and they always talked about what they did, how they played, you know, as child, we give this information to the adults around us. But in some way, I always have this special treatment, and I was like, okay, I know these people just know me and just know how to treat me, how to face…

the reality that I’m putting on their faces. When I came out of the closet with my mom and my dad, I was like around 14. And it was a very, very interesting mental process that I went to because I’ve always been this anxious person. You know me. I have always been this…

Trevor Hoppe (08:07)
Wow.

Nolberto (08:21)
person with anxiety problems. So I was kind of into a girl during the school time when I was 40 years old. We were really into each other and my mom and my dad were very very excited about she and I being a couple or something.

Even if I was like kind of excited about this, I knew that eventually I would have relationship with voice. And in my head, there was a huge, huge horrible story about me giving the wrong message to my dad and mom that I was straight and then I had to keep on this lie during whole my life, you know?

And then I picture myself getting married for social pressure. And then I picture myself cheating on my wife and living with her with my kids to go out with some random guy in my 40s. You know, I was like a Mexican Telenorada. And then I, and the way I ended this Telenorada was coming out with them. I was like, all right, you know I’m into this girl.

Trevor Hoppe (09:17)
Yeah.

Nolberto (09:28)
I I have no issues with that. I hope you don’t have these issues with that, of course. But you have to know, you consider this warning if you want to, that eventually I will have, maybe I will have this with voice too. Sorry.

Trevor Hoppe (09:42)
what

a fascinating way to come out. You basically came out as like gay but with a girlfriend.

Nolberto (09:48)
Exactly.

And I’ve always had this openness. During some time of my life, I introduced myself as bisexual. Now I identify myself more as queer person. But politically, of course, surrounded by all these HIV calls, of course I’m politically…

Identified as a gay man because I have a lot of a lot of issues that crosses cross matter reality that it makes me configure myself as that but coming back to the Mexican telenovela of course, I that’s the way how I stopped it and That’s the way That that’s the way how I stopped how I stopped the telenovela

Trevor Hoppe (10:23)
That’s how it started? That’s how what?

Nolberto (10:29)
And that’s how I started to face my sexuality in terms of, so I think this is how, I think this is what life is about. Like facing the things as they are, maybe not trying to push things into categories or expectations or desires. And if I’m true to myself,

in this part, maybe the other will have the chance know if they accept me and to know if they there will be no false expectations.

Trevor Hoppe (11:08)
So

how did your parents react when you told them?

Nolberto (11:12)
was another telenovela. It was more like a serious and loud, and that was the second season. Of course, they sent me to the psychologist, of course. I went to the psychologist. She was a wonderful therapist. She was working in the clinic that we went to, you know, for the insurance we have for the government, you know, it’s a free clinic and they have a…

Trevor Hoppe (11:14)
Ha ha ha ha.

Nolberto (11:34)
access to she was very supportive and she was very wise and she helped me a lot to understand that there was nothing wrong with me. She said, and I have this tattooed in my said, I could help you to figure out if you’re into boys, into girls, into both. You have already figured it out. I can help you to figure it out.

Trevor Hoppe (11:46)
Good.

Nolberto (12:00)
figure out. If you are boys and girls and you feel some conflict inside of you, I can help you with that conflict but seems like you have this If you want you to talk to your parents about think I could help you to make a decision, to make what could be good, what could go

and you can make a decision. You already made that decision. I could help you to not feel guilty about who you are, not to feel less worthy for being who you are, but you have already done it. So it seems like now it’s your parents’ problem, and I’m very glad to help them if they want to come here. So I was like, I didn’t expect to get this reaffirmation of…

Trevor Hoppe (12:43)
Wow.

Nolberto (12:48)
Everyone out of my own head, you know, it was very life-changing absolutely that’s that changed my life and from this my I told that to my parents and The answer was so we’re gonna look for another psychologist and I was like Okay. Yes, they were like very committed to that cause They went to the psychologist they want to help but they

Trevor Hoppe (13:05)
no.

Yeah.

Nolberto (13:14)
they didn’t tell me. And you know the anxiety thing. Well, I decided, I think there should be a word in English. I decided unilateralmente, you know, like, just, I decided for everyone, I decided for everyone that I would never talk about it again until they come up with the issue.

And they telling me of course That they wouldn’t talk about the I would bring it to the conversation there was a six-year silence in my was a strange in my house during six years We didn’t talk about Anything more than the daily that’s when I started

high school and university. Of course it changed my dynamic with my family, of course. We were like strangers to each other. six years later, you know in Mexico we have this altars to the deaf people on November, Dia de Muertos. I started to work an association and we made an altar de Muertos, we made an ofrenda.

for LGBTQ people who committed suicide. We put it in a house of culture, it was a building in Puebla that works culture issues. It was kind of a demonstration. You get your group, they sign up and they show your

My mom went to that exhibition because it was a permanent exhibition and it was like a coincidence. I was there and she went into with my sister. And then that’s when she realized that I was doing all this stuff and that issue didn’t stop for me. did stop this conversation at home, of course, I didn’t…

Trevor Hoppe (14:59)
in those six years, yeah.

Nolberto (15:05)
I couldn’t stop working on it personally for a second. No one talked about it during the event, during the demonstration, you know? later at night, when I arrived home, my mom was washing I told him, well, thank you. So for what? Thank you for not making a serious scandal because that’s what you normally do.

you know, thank you for behaving, for being an adult. And she was you know, I haven’t talked to you about it and maybe this has been a mistake, but I want you to know that I’m open to talk about this every time you want to, that I been waiting for a chance.

from you to tell you that I’m more than okay with that, that I love you a lot, but I didn’t want to bring up to the conversation because I thought it would be invasive. And I was like.

You know, it was a very, it was a very strange feeling between reaffirmation, like, okay, I really wanted this. I can’t blame you for making this decision because in some way I made the same decision as you. In my mind, I was protecting you from the reality and in your mind, were protecting me from reality.

Trevor Hoppe (16:03)
Yeah.

Nolberto (16:26)
I can’t blame anyone but the culture. I just blame the culture. we kind of lost six years. After that six years, I had a full conversation with my parents. They told me they went to the psychologist and they loved her, but not as obsessed as I was with her. But then it happens that

they found a friend of them in the You know, there’s always this friend who has maybe not studies in some issues, but you give him, you give to that friend the ability, the title of that wise person, you know? There’s always someone who maybe didn’t study a lot, but there’s someone that you can fight, you know?

Trevor Hoppe (17:10)
Yeah.

Nolberto (17:17)
So they found this friend he has a very way He had a very strange advice for them but it worked in them and I’m thankful for they told me, we found this friend, we talked about this, we had just came out of the office with the psychologist like feeling kind of, you know, like confused and…

we saw this friend and he saw that we were like intrigued or worried and concerned basically what he told us was okay but would you love yourself right? He asked me

Yeah, but maybe people will treat him bad. Uh-huh. So, you love him, right? So you want him not to feel rejected on the outside. So you want to make for him a nice space at your home, right? And it was very effective for them. I think it maybe was a kind of a…

Maybe he speaks on their language. And I was trying to speak in another language, you know. Maybe it’s a thing between generations. Maybe it’s something that has to do a little bit more with maybe not trying to explain a lot of things, you know. And maybe that’s why it works on or on their generation.

Trevor Hoppe (18:18)
Yeah.

Nolberto (18:36)
I’m telling you to do this because I’m your mom and that’s enough reasons, you know? Maybe. Yes, exactly. And I’m very thankful for that. It took six years to get to this conversation, but I do feel bad about it. I feel that now my relationship with my father and my mother is great. I love my father. I love my mother with all my heart.

Trevor Hoppe (18:41)
Right? End of story.

Nolberto (19:00)
And they have known my boyfriends. They have known my spaces. Once I moved to Mexico City, they have came and visited. We have a very, very good relationship now. I’m still very far from my bigger family because I don’t think I…

Trevor Hoppe (19:18)
the uncle who gave you the cross

Nolberto (19:20)
Yes, I don’t know.

Trevor Hoppe (19:20)
you may be not so close with.

Nolberto (19:22)
Eventually some cousins come to me telling me that they had the courage to come out because I was the first one in the family. it also helped a lot that I was always this kind of nerdy, intelligent guy, you know, like a…

Trevor Hoppe (19:34)
That’s so great though

Nolberto (19:43)
this library mouse, have this expression in Spanish. And I was always that person. So I got good notes, was like, in my family I was known for the one that is going to be very, very intelligent, very successful and, know, smart and everything. So that was like…

the good quality that my family recognized about me and that in some way still put me on the map and I was very very happy that some of my cousins has reached me years before to tell me that okay I did it and thanks to you for doing something for not keep quiet

Remain silent.

Trevor Hoppe (20:30)
that’s really great that you were able to be that kind of trailblazer. certainly experienced the same similar thing in my family and my community where I was definitely ahead of the curve coming out at 14 also. So we share that experience. And I also, my parents took me to the psychologist also, and then the psychologist ended up being really supportive about the whole gay thing. It did not go the way that I expected it to or

probably the way my parents expected it to be honest. I’m grateful for that in retrospect. So.

Nolberto (21:04)
It’s

very interesting how we… Sorry, it’s just something that has just crossed my mind. There’s a lot of things that we need to change because it’s very unfair to put this pressure on 14 years old individuals. It’s very, very, very strange. And some things just have never changed. well, that was just the idea.

Trevor Hoppe (21:19)
yeah, I mean…

you’re growing up in Puebla, you’ve come out to your parents, but there’s the six years of silence. I presume probably your first sexual experiences probably took place sometime in those six years. Is that a fair assessment? What was that like?

Nolberto (21:45)
Yes, ah, that was very, very interesting, dad’s story.

I was in high school, I was 16 years old and I don’t know the age of the other guy but I’m very very sure he knew that I was underaged of course because they were in 2002-2003 to have internet in your house was a luxury you know

Trevor Hoppe (22:02)
Hmm.

Nolberto (22:17)
We had the cyber cafes. And you go around to computer per hour. And my God, feel like my teachers talking to me about the 60s. And then, and by that time, and at that moment in history.

Trevor Hoppe (22:28)
Right? It feels like a way, way back again. Yeah.

Nolberto (22:36)
We didn’t have apps in our cell phones. There was chat rooms. There was gay.com. And there was Latin America category. And there was gay men in black color. I remember that I was just… I went there. There was a cyber cafe out of my… just crossing the street.

Trevor Hoppe (22:45)
Yes.

Nolberto (23:00)
from my school. A preparatoria. Everyone is underage in preparatoria. So you do the math. So the guy who was in charge of the place, some time, know, some day I was like chatting with a random person because you have no information but the nickname. And yes, of course. Yeah. I think telenovela runs through my veins because I’m Mexican.

maybe and then in the momentary and then i receive a message and you insert the music of your favorite and then i’m the guy next to you with a i don’t know with a red shirt and i was like

Trevor Hoppe (23:25)
my gosh, that’s…

Nolberto (23:37)
You know.

Trevor Hoppe (23:40)
Whoa.

Nolberto (23:40)
I was very very

happy because I really like that guy. I found him very attractive. He had this nerdy look. He had a beard. He had a wonderful belly. He was cute. He was really really really cute. And I don’t remember how.

Trevor Hoppe (23:45)
Yeah?

Nolberto (24:02)
but sometimes I had to go to school on Saturdays for some signatures. Actually, I don’t remember clearly, but sometimes we had to go to school on Saturdays. And most of the things around the school were closed, and you have a lack of structure on these Saturdays. So I decided that I was…

trying to kill some time at the cafe and it was closed and I was getting out of the building where it was and I ran into that guy. I like I’m just gonna check some things in there so I will not be open today I’m sorry but if you want to join me to get these things you know upstairs just you and I was like alright that’s it yeah

Of course it was unprotected. Yes, it was unprotected. Of course I was yes. And I’m talking about 2002. It was way before prep. It was way before my first HIV test. It was way before a lot of things that I know now. And it was way before a lot of things that I consider. There are like a…

like the non-negotiable things that I have put myself in my sexual life. But there are things that I have solved later. In that time, I wanted to have this reaffirmation experience, you know, because I knew I didn’t feel pressured about there’s some experience that you’re losing that you have to, that you need to have now. I was like…

I wanted to prove myself that I was attractive to someone. I wanted to prove myself that someone would like to have this interaction with me. I didn’t want a boyfriend. a relationship. I didn’t want a happily ever after story. I wanted to feel desired. And that’s what I got. It was a sloppy yes.

It was it was not really really good He had one is the most gorgeous sticks I have ever seen in my life. I remember clearly

and it felt great. But yeah, it was the idea. But I have no regrets.

Trevor Hoppe (26:27)
What more can you ask for, for a first time?

Nolberto (26:28)
Yes, exactly.

I would have liked to have a little more preparation for that. You know, I have always been this very open person about things. So I wish I was the kind of person who would always carry condoms, for example. But I didn’t come up with the idea until that day.

So I was like, all right, I would have changed that to feel safer, to feel more secure, and to enjoy a little bit more of the experience, yes, because I was worried some days before, of course, I was very, very in terms of the experience and expectations, was absolutely satisfied, five stars.

Trevor Hoppe (27:14)
I love that. I love to hear that. that’s an amazing first time experience. I’m glad it was positive and fulfilling. Do you remember some of those early sexual experiences maybe that didn’t go so well that kind of you learn some lessons the hard way?

Nolberto (27:30)
yes, of course. And I had time to think about it. I had time, but there’s always so many things. The one that I have talked about the most, this year, some friends and I were talking about how the traditionally attractive people, know,

Trevor Hoppe (27:34)
Yeah.

Nolberto (27:50)
Egemonico? What’s the word in English for Egemonico? Egemonic? No. Egemonic, yeah. We have like this kind of… I don’t know. I won’t call it an idea because it’s more than an idea, but I won’t say it’s evidence. But well, you will get it as long as I start there. Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (27:55)
Hegemonic,

mainstream beauty norms is that is that

Nolberto (28:14)
Most of the time, the people that have the most of these attractive traditional features, most of the time, it looks like they seem to only need that and not to put some effort, not to put creativity. I’m just putting in here my attractive, my wonderful nose, my huge spectacles, you know, my muscles.

Trevor Hoppe (28:29)
Alright.

Nolberto (28:37)
And because I’m the ugly one, I’m putting all the effort, you know? So, we have this saying that handsome people have horrible thugs, basically. I remember in kind of these days, I was in Manhattan chatting in that siberica. Well, I had to go to another siberica.

So I was chatting with a guy that lived like two blocks from me, from where I was living. And it was this beautiful, traditionally beautiful, handsome man, very white skinned, you know, Mexico is a very racist country. Don’t let them try to convince you of the contrary. Very white skin, green eyes, a wonderful nose, very nice body, everything.

He sent me a message, hey how are you? Let’s meet. And I was like, I would gladly do, but I have to present a test in my school, so I don’t have time now. Can we do tomorrow? And his answer was shocking. I wish I could translate it fully. He was like, no, no, no, it’s not that I’m like you. I don’t like you, I’m just horny.

And I was like, how very down are you? know? And, course, yes, of course, I felt offended. Yes, of course, but I decided that that was going to be the only interaction. A few weeks later, he writes to me again, and I was like, oh, that was the guy who was rude with me.

Trevor Hoppe (29:48)
you

Fuck off!

As you should.

Nolberto (30:16)
And he invited me again. And I went.

Trevor Hoppe (30:20)
yeah, you capes.

Nolberto (30:21)
Because I always learned the

hard way. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I always learned the hard way. Yes, I don’t learn. I love to. I love the performance of learning even though I don’t learn. But if I enjoy the process, what’s the problem? So I decided to go with him. I entered to his bedroom with my backpack. I turn around to put my backpack.

Trevor Hoppe (30:26)
up in there.

Yeah.

Nolberto (30:48)
on the floor and started to get undressed. And he is on the bed with his niece in here, know, like showing his book, like, now do it. And like sniffing his, opening his bottle of poppers, you know. And I was like, okay, your mother ready, baby. I was trying to…

Trevor Hoppe (30:57)
Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Nolberto (31:09)
I don’t know, it wasn’t even my heart inside him. And he came. And I was like, oh. And I was like, what a waste of time.

Trevor Hoppe (31:16)
Uh-huh.

we have this song that’s from the 50s or 60s, I think here in the United States. It’s like, if you want to be happy for the rest of your life, never make a pretty woman your wife. And I feel like it’s kind of the same, same idea here, which is like hot guys are very pretty to look at, but sometimes they can be really fun, obviously, but they’re not always in it.

Nolberto (31:35)
Me- yeah!

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Trevor Hoppe (31:45)
You know, they don’t have to bring as much to the table in terms of skills and talent sometimes. on that body. Stop relying on that body is what, you know, the RuPaul expression. Yeah. So I feel that.

Nolberto (31:49)
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Exactly Yes, yes sometimes

Yeah, and I think it’s it’s very important to think that I always try to to to bring to myself What I think about other people? Even if I even if I Even if I’m telling you this story about this guy who was very very rude relying in some qualities of his body

I always try to think, have I some time behaved similarly? Do I have some behavior sometimes that may look like the same? And I think that it’s very important to think that maybe not about physical features, but I do rely on some qualities that I have. And I know…

that sometimes I have been abusive in that terms, of course. Yeah, I think I have if you want to change something, you have to acknowledge it first. So I was like, yes, exactly. And I’ve always tried to make this intellectual effort, but okay, there are some moments, there have been some experiences when I have tried to…

Trevor Hoppe (33:00)
You gotta start with yourself.

Nolberto (33:14)
take advantage of something or being unfair with some other people because I have pictures of the other think something important to think about. Exactly.

Trevor Hoppe (33:24)
We’re all human, right? We’re all human and we’re

on those apps and we’re horny. And sometimes we treat people with the same kind of disrespect that we get. And it’s really, you don’t even realize sometimes you’re doing it. There can be these power games where people play in terms of, you know, leaving you on read, like they’ll read your message, but they won’t reply. And you’ll be like, and then I’ll find myself sometimes doing exactly the same thing.

Nolberto (33:30)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Aha.

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (33:52)
For many different reasons. Sometimes you’re not being rude. Sometimes you just don’t know, you know, if now is the right time. you know, you have to reflect back on yourself and think, am I also doing and contributing to this pattern and how do I change it? And one of the previous guests, Shane Lucas, that I interviewed talked about looking for people that are curious, that want to know things about you and that you want to know things about.

Nolberto (33:58)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (34:21)
And I really try to keep that. It’s, hard sometimes cause people don’t like to talk a lot on those apps, but, but if you kind of select for people who seem genuinely curious about you and what turns you on and that you’re also curious about them and what turns them on, I think that can be helpful to weed out those guys like you’re talking about who are not curious at all. and, and not good fucks as you said.

Nolberto (34:27)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Exactly.

Yes, exactly. And it’s a lack of reflection, it’s a lack of curiosity. It’s like taking for granted that this thing will directly bring you to another one. And that this is all figured out because there is this other thing in the equation. And it’s just unreal. But some people take it for granted.

Trevor Hoppe (35:13)
Yeah.

Nolberto (35:16)
I can’t blame no one but the culture again, but well it happens

Trevor Hoppe (35:22)
Yeah, I had an experience ago,

sort of similar to what you described where this guy messaged me and couldn’t meet up right then. And I said, I said no. his response is like, wasn’t really into you actually. I just thought you would be easy. I was like, great. Well, thank you for clarifying that. What the fuck? Like.

Nolberto (35:41)
Okay.

That’s a very

rude thing to say.

Trevor Hoppe (35:47)
It’s awful. I think, yeah, and that can really…

Nolberto (35:50)
It’s awful. I remember my next boyfriend.

My next boyfriend told me the very same thing. You have people behind you. You have all these kind of people who invite you to dinner or something. But not because you’re handsome, because you’re easy. And I was like, okay.

Trevor Hoppe (35:56)
Ugh, I’m sorry.

just the audacity to say that and it’s a lot. It’s a lot. So you had to kiss some frogs to get to the good stuff. is today, what do you think the best sex looks like for you today?

Nolberto (36:11)
Exactly. Mm-hmm. Yes.

Yes.

the best sex looks like…

like two or more present their consent and their craziness in a playground. To me, good sex is a playground. To me, good sex is about taking pauses, you know, like, let’s pause it for a moment, and restart again. Good sex is about… Let me catch some air.

sex is about…so good, should I go upper? should I go lower? sex is about a good laugh in between good sex is about the chance to not being worried about how you are being you know

Trevor Hoppe (37:02)
Mmm.

It’s real.

Nolberto (37:13)
For me good

sex is It’s like I used to think of good sex like my own version of my own porn movie, you Considering there’s a fiction of course, you know? like the main videos that we I used to think of my sexuality as like my best sex, my version of…

best sex would be a porn clip directed for me, by me, you know? But I have started to make it a little more complex because it’s not about how it looks, it’s about how it feels and it’s about how the environment. So it’s the clip and they’re behind the scenes and the process of being right in it during the time you’re filming it, you know? It’s everything happening at the same time.

Trevor Hoppe (37:43)
That’s a nice way to think about it.

That’s right.

Nolberto (38:07)
I think it’s possible when you have the chance to be yourself and to ask for the things you want in the moment and you are open enough to let the other person be. And that’s great. I remember I had one of the best experiences some months ago with someone that I was…

He was attending one of my courses years ago and then we found each other again on Instagram and he was like, were the teacher in that, and I was like, yes. He was like, I wish I could have the chance to take you to dinner after this and everything. And I was like, well, you have the chance now. So we met, we talked a little on Instagram. We talked about…

Trevor Hoppe (38:48)
Yeah

Nolberto (38:53)
fantasies, we talked about things that we wanted to do, things that we’d like to. We defined like the base, the basics, sorry. And we had one of the best sexual encounters of my entire life. I was like, my God. mean, he was an athlete, but not exactly, not just in physical terms, you know?

because you see when a muscle is trained but in the conversation you can realize too you can tell when communication skills are trained too you can see when when when honesty is trained too you can see when

You can tell a lot of things when you talk to someone. So it was very, very apparent. We were like having fun. It was about having fun. And it was great. I mean, yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (39:49)
That’s awesome. I’m going to record this question so I can edit it back into that. So I can energize.

Nolberto (39:50)
Yeah. huh. Okay. huh. Okay.

Okay.

Trevor Hoppe (39:57)
But you’re sorry, hands will be problematic with, yep.

Nolberto (40:00)
sorry, Thank you.

Let me do these things before.

Trevor Hoppe (40:03)
So can you two…

Nolberto (40:08)
Is it my hair is in this phase when it’s growing but it’s not short but it’s not long exactly and it falls off? Yeah, it’s better. Thank you.

Trevor Hoppe (40:20)
So can you tell me about one of the best experiences that you’ve had? I’m just gonna edit that in too so that you can then tell that story that you just told. For the clips, it’s good to have a back and forth. So like I said, when you just stick to one story, like don’t, I remember a time when I just stick to the one. will be easier, I promise, in the long run.

Nolberto (40:24)
Hmm

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Yes. Thank you. I just let carry the way.

Trevor Hoppe (40:47)
Sorry to interrupt again.

I know, I love that. And it’s usually amazing just for the Instagram stuff, it has to be so tight. know? me figure, know where I was gonna go from there.

Nolberto (40:57)
I know. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (41:01)
So are you a lights on or lights off kind of guy?

Nolberto (41:04)
My lights on… that’s a good question. My lights on… It’s not about physical features, but there has to be something physical that attracts me, of course. Even if it’s… beard, chest, legs, whatever. There has to be something physical, yeah. There doesn’t have to be the whole package of physical features that I will…

like or if I detracted. I need a good laugh. Of course I need a good laugh. I need a good sense of humor. need a curious person. I need someone who encourages you to talk. I need someone, what turns me on is someone that when you say something that…

can be kind of censorship reason, that person asks you, and what else? You know, with very interest. I love interest in passionate people. I love people who, what turns me on is people that you say something about some situation, some fantasy, some…

that you want to do and and they took it and it and if you are this have you ever tried to imagine if you are this or if you put this other element I was like okay so someone who interacts with your desire that always turns out it also turns me on of course when someone has this

this ability to pause things, you know? Okay, let’s bring some water. Are you okay? Are you feeling It doesn’t break my fantasy. Aha, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn’t finish my fantasy, of course. It makes me feel like, okay, we’re taking care of each other, too. That’s something that should be on. What turns me off, it’s way easier.

Trevor Hoppe (42:40)
ability to take a break. Yeah. Yeah.

Nolberto (42:58)
The people who just lay down and wait for you.

Trevor Hoppe (43:00)
Well,

let me ask you that. know, sorry to keep interrupting. Now that I’ve edited so many of these, I just know what’s gonna work best. And if I ask you that question, will be, I can use it more.

Nolberto (43:06)
Tell me about it.

Trevor Hoppe (43:14)
So we got a good idea of kind of what turns you on, what turns you off.

Nolberto (43:18)
Oh, it turns me off. It’s a little easier. The people who just lay down and make you do all the effort. The people who just throw some crumbles of information and you have to figure out all that will happen.

Trevor Hoppe (43:24)
Yeah.

Nolberto (43:36)
It’s not that I need three or four hours encounter. I’m a big fan of quickies. we have to settle. We have to decide it together. know? I turn up entitled people.

Trevor Hoppe (43:44)
Really?

Nolberto (43:51)
I hate when people are just like, okay, but you see this beauty here in front of you, so you want to worship me, right? It’s like, have, yes, it’s like, I have not decided that and you will not decide for me unless it’s my fantasy in that, in which case I am still deciding, you know? That’s kind of what turns me on. People with bad moods in terms of, you know, in…

Trevor Hoppe (43:57)
Yeah, this, yeah.

Right.

Nolberto (44:19)
People who are rude, like people who are, I’m tired of. That’s why, it’s very easy to turn me off. And it’s very easy that if some people has already turned me on, it’s very easy to turn me off. I have learned to, I have learned to not continue with interactions that I don’t want to. And I have.

been and I have learned that I can stop being afraid of finishing an encounter if something doesn’t, if I don’t like something and I’m very, very, very in peace with that.

Trevor Hoppe (44:57)
Yeah, amen to that. How did you learn to say effectively? Because I think that’s what’s so hard for some people is not just, don’t want to have sex with you, but maybe I’m going to leave this situation because I don’t feel good it.

Nolberto (45:10)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well first I have to remind myself that this is not the encounter or this is not the last chance that I will have to have an encounter. I remember I have to remind myself that there is a lot of people that are into me that finds me attractive.

that want to have a good moment with me sexually and that makes me think with more confidence like, alright, this time it’s not happening, next time without a person, it will happen because there will be some other people, there are some other people that will be more compatible with the things that I want and the things that I want to

Trevor Hoppe (45:49)
Peace out.

Nolberto (46:02)
to bring to the and I will be more compatible with some other if it didn’t work, thank you for your time, my best wishes And that’s it. Yes, yes, exactly, yes. Yes, I’m not… Yes, yes.

Trevor Hoppe (46:13)
for now. I understand that, And

what you think, you described kind of the characteristics of what you think the best sex looks like for you. Can you, looking back, is there an encounter where you’re like, you know what, this is pretty much close to the best?

Nolberto (46:25)
Mm-hmm.

Close to the best. Close to the best. This guy that was my student in the course that I teach, like some years ago. There’s been some, I think that since 2015, maybe 10 years ago, I started to develop this workshop.

Trevor Hoppe (46:43)
Mmm.

Nolberto (46:58)
that is called Sessiones Explicitas. That is a sexual health workshop for gay We work at Naked. So from that course, I have developed some small workshops, Sara, short versions with very specific objectives. So there was some guy who took the course with me years ago.

Trevor Hoppe (47:00)
huh.

Nolberto (47:21)
And like some months ago, found me on Instagram and was really wanted to have some interaction with you after that cause. But I found it problematic. I knew that it wasn’t going to be the most ethical thing. well, now that I have found you and some years have been, I wanna talk about it. And I was like, I think this is a great time to talk about it.

And we talked a little about fantasies, we talked a little about situations, we made our schedules to work on together and we had a very, very good time.

We had this basis very, very clear about what we wanted to do. And it wasn’t like we had any script of what to do and what to say, but we had a general idea. And from that, we started to just to have fun and just to let each one carry their weight. was very, very, it was a very, it was about reaffirmation of course, like.

there was always this communication verbally about this is what I wanted to do, like yes, it go, and I finally have the chance of having, know, with all this desire and the tone of the voice, you know? And there’s also a lot of things,

Involving the whole body, you know not focusing in some parts of the body. It was like a whole experience and it was Like let’s make a pause. I need some water so we can keep on continue like this it was it’s very interesting how you can be like kind you’re like craving for someone but at the same time that you feel like you have

Praising for someone you also know that you still have time to make little pulses so you can still enjoy the situation So it was very very hard and intense sometimes, you know, and it was very very calm sometimes and I think it was about balance It was about Talking about what we wanted in the moment and and to continue

to the other one if we wanted upper the level making it low. It was like, it was great. It was like close to the best. I wouldn’t know which one to call my best but that was definitely one of the most recent and the most pleasurable ever.

Trevor Hoppe (49:54)
Great. You mentioned these workshops. Tell me a little bit about what you would do in these workshops, because I’m sure people are curious.

Nolberto (50:00)
Yes, of course. Yeah, we’re glad to do. Well, so Cedric’s Explicit Desks, Explicit Sessions, is a workshop that I developed with some inspirations in some Tantra workshops that I went into sometimes. You know, Tantra is more spiritual, and I make my workshops a little more practical, because I…

I don’t have a spiritual training in anything, but I do have this experience and this knowledge in practical things about sexual hell. I forget the other words, sorry. But it’s something like it’s about your own body and how you think of your own body, not in a spiritual…

terms, in just physical terms, know, very, very practical. And I came up with the idea of first, we need to learn about sexuality more relaxed environments and we have to give ourselves a chance to learn in terms of pleasure, not in terms of guilt.

Trevor Hoppe (51:06)
Yeah.

Nolberto (51:08)
or in terms of what could go wrong. And if we think of terms of what could go wrong, we have to think about what can we bring to the table that has been wrong during our lives. So there is like two big, I always say that this workshop has two strong legs. The first one is this, about experience, of course, and you have the chance to.

We talk about consent in every exercise. We always talk about consent in every exercise because I always have an assistant with me. Like a magician, there’s always one person with which I show the exercise first with that person. Okay, the next exercise is about this, this, and this. And I do all the exercise with the person that I have for demonstration.

Trevor Hoppe (51:46)
Yeah

Nolberto (51:59)
And then I asked to the team, to the people, is there any one of you that doesn’t want to do this exercise? And if someone raised their hands, it doesn’t matter, it’s great. You helped me to work on with the materials, with the message, oil, and all these things. I mean, you can learn maybe by not participating.

But if you participate, I want you to feel safe and I want you to feel comfortable when you participate. that’s the first thing. We talk about sexual health in a very consent, with a very specific perspective of consent. Because the other lack of the workshop is that even if we even if the people that signs up to the workshop, maybe some of them are gay men.

some of them are non-binary people that have sex with gay men. The thing is, there’s a lot of violence in our interactions. We still have the idea, the wrong idea, that harder is better, that deeper is better, that stronger is better. And not all the times, not with all the people.

And there’s some awful experience that people have terms of, couldn’t stop this. some people get hurt physically and some people get hurt emotionally. So other thing that we work on in the workshop. It’s a six hour workshop because it’s always step by step, little by little we go.

from very basic things to some other exercise every time with less clothes, every time with a little more ideas to complex and always after an exercise we always try to discuss the center issue. The exercise works as a…

as a provocation to speak, you know? It’s like, let’s use the exercise as an excuse to talk about some other ideas. it’s not just about getting naked with other guys, which I always tell people, this is not exactly an orgy. If you want to, I can manage drone. I’m very, very good at managing orgy.

Trevor Hoppe (54:03)
Yeah.

Nolberto (54:17)
a very good orgy organizer orgy planner, I will say. But well, what I always tell them is that it’s not like a… It’s more like a series of exercises and discussions that are from very basic things to more complex things about what is defined in us in our sexuality.

Trevor Hoppe (54:17)
No.

Nolberto (54:39)
being rude and violent with other men, being entitled to do things that the other people maybe don’t want to do. Because the most of the time when gaming talk about of their sexual encounters, they will use metaphors with violence. The most of them, wouldn’t know how to translate it in English, but was like

I really destroyed her whole, you know, was like… Destroying is really good thing in all this, the context. Is it really what the other person wanted? But if it… Because if it is, it’s great. But wasn’t what the other people was asking for. So, it’s kind of… It’s the first time I tried to talk about my workshop in English. It’s been quite a challenge. Thank you for that.

Trevor Hoppe (55:29)
I think you are onto something with this tendency to, I guess it’s just toxic masculinity that seeps into our heads and we end up using this kind of macho language around, I fucked him in half, you know, I just destroyed his whole, I,

Nolberto (55:42)
Mm-hmm.

Uh-huh.

Trevor Hoppe (55:47)
Part of that, I guess, is toxic masculinity. What are the good parts of masculinity that we should kind of promote and kind of foster and feel good about, and how do we separate that from the toxic stuff?

Nolberto (56:02)
a great question. You always ask the smallest questions. Because I’m going to be totally honest with you as I have been my whole life. The first idea that appears in my head is nothing but. Yeah, but I think about it for second and I said, okay,

Trevor Hoppe (56:20)
Right? Yeah, I feel that. I do.

Nolberto (56:27)
One of the first features that I think is like, there’s this like sufficiency, I think that’s the word, when you are…

able to speak your mind. You’re able to say what you want to do, what you want to have, what you want to say, basically. Yeah, that confidence that is like, all right, this is what I need. And even if other people’s tries to convince me that maybe you don’t want this, yes, I want this first. I think there also this crafty feature, like we don’t want to hire other people to fix something in our house.

Trevor Hoppe (56:42)
confidence.

Nolberto (57:03)
We have this confidence. Yes, exactly. I can do it myself. And I can prove myself that I’m good at it. Even if it’s my first attempt to do it, I will prove myself that I’m good enough to do this. It will bring me a satisfaction feeling.

Trevor Hoppe (57:03)
We’re supposed to be handyman.

Nolberto (57:21)
the other thing is like, socially we are encouraged to take some risks. And sometimes we see things as risks, but as opportunities.

Trevor Hoppe (57:27)
Hmm.

Mmm.

Nolberto (57:34)
And

I think that’s a very good thing in terms of, I remember a friend of mine in high school that said, if you don’t want it, we cannot do it again. If you didn’t like it at the end, we cannot do it again. So I think these are three features at last that as an adult I think of masculinity. And of course I’m not rejecting the idea of

that list becoming a bigger list during the following years. If you ask me the same question in one year or two years, maybe I will come with a bigger list.

Trevor Hoppe (58:17)
Definitely. I appreciate that because I think sometimes label of toxic masculinity, often we can see that and we can appreciate what’s bad about masculinity, but I think there are also good elements of it we also want to try to hold onto and not throw out with the bathwater. And as gay men, we obviously have a fraught and troubled

Nolberto (58:23)
you

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (58:41)
troubled relationship with masculinity just because of the nature of our society, but reclaiming that, that good stuff I think can be helpful people.

Nolberto (58:43)
Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (58:50)
always like to end with my favorite segment, Sorted Lives or Untold Tales or SLUT for short. What’s the sluttiest thing you ever did?

Nolberto (58:59)
the sluggiest thing I ever did. I was lucky enough to have a sex club like three blocks away from my house and I was starting prep and prep gave me a lot of permission to do a lot of things so I remember it’s one of my golden memories

Trevor Hoppe (59:09)
Nice.

Nolberto (59:23)
of my sexual life is one of the highlights. My first test to mouth. I like, yeah. My first, I haven’t experienced myself much as a bottom until the recent years and after PrEP. And I have gave myself a tons of options and things to do that I wasn’t able to do. I’m not just thinking that PrEP is…

is doing all the homework because in parallel I have made a lot of thinking and a lot of reflection inside myself and I’m always these people who wonders why and how. So I think that has helped a lot but yes there’s a lot of things that are like my sluttiest The first gangbang is a button.

That was quite memorable

My first orgy. I have tons. I have tons, And there’s some other things that they were like very, very slutty and they sound very good in history, but in real terms, they were very, very sometimes I fulfilled my fantasy of having sex in the beach.

Trevor Hoppe (1:00:23)
Hahaha.

Yeah,

Nolberto (1:00:43)
But it’s very, very uncomfortable. I was like, it sounds very sexy, like doing it and it’s like, no, there’s sand all over me, there’s sand inside of me. No, I need to stop it.

Trevor Hoppe (1:00:54)
Some places you do not want exfoliated with sand. It is just not the place.

Nolberto (1:00:58)
Yes, exactly. Yes.

But it’s good to have this experience because now I know that I don’t want to do it again. And no one is coming here to tell me, how does it feel? I have had the experience for myself and that’s my decision to make.

Trevor Hoppe (1:01:09)
Amen to that.

Amen. Well, that’s a really good place to end. appreciate it. Tell me if listeners or watchers, viewers want to learn more about you, where can they find you online?

Nolberto (1:01:14)
Yeah.

Bye.

Well, they can find me online in Instagram. My Instagram name is Noelle Rofian. I think we can write it down. So it’s my name in Instagram and an X, formerly known as Twitter. There’s lots of nudity and explicit material in X. So it’s NSFW, I think the other letters. Yeah. Instagram is little…

Trevor Hoppe (1:01:32)
Yes, I will tag you of course, yep.

And not safe for work, yes, exactly.

Nolberto (1:01:49)
more about education stuff and the things that I do daily and lots of underwear. That’s where you can find me.

Trevor Hoppe (1:01:56)
Perfect. Thank you so much, Alberto. I really appreciate your time and your wisdom.

Nolberto (1:02:01)
Thank you a lot, thank you for your trust in me, thank you for considering me as one of your guests. You’re a person that I admire a lot in every, and I’m very flattered to be here.

Trevor Hoppe (1:02:11)
Well, the feeling is mutual, for sure.

Trevor Hoppe (1:02:15)
That’s our show for today. As always, thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed today’s show, leave us a review on Apple, on Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your content. We would be most grateful for that kind of feedback. It keeps us going. And remember, if you aren’t having your best sex life, I can help. My services as a sex coach are designed to help you identify and overcome.

those obstacles that are standing between you and your best sex life. Find out more on my website, thebestcasex.net. Till next time.