Overview: On the premiere episode of The Best Gay Sex Podcast, Dr. Trevor Hoppe interviews Damon L. Jacobs about his journey as a gay men’s health advocate and how he centers pleasure in his work. He reflects on the impact of the AIDS crisis on his sexual awakening in the 1980s and the fear and stigma associated with being gay back then. Damon also talks about how PrEP transformed his sexual health and mental well-being. He emphasizes the importance of putting pleasure first when talking about sexual health, urging listeners to move beyond traditional labels. Damon concludes by discussing the challenges of seeking validation through sex and the importance of embracing pleasure without fear.
Transcript:
Trevor Hoppe (00:10)
Hey, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast. I am your host, Dr. Trevor Hoppe. Today’s episode is all about pleasure. Why can’t we talk about that? If you ask the average American to describe what they learned in sex ed, you could almost bet your bottom dollar that pleasure was not part of the curriculum. They teach boys to not get girls pregnant and girls, well, they just learn how to not get pregnant.
Maybe they throw in some scary pictures of STIs for just a pinch of fear of God on top. This episode and in truth this entire podcast is all about pleasure. In today’s episode, I talked to therapist Damon L. Jacobs, who I have had the pleasure of knowing for many years. There is advocacy promoting PrEP back in 2012 and 2013 when nobody was talking about it. And I mean nobody.
But we knew it worked. We knew that it stops HIV dead in its tracks. But public health was scared of PrEP because it gave queer men the power to have the sex we want and the way that we want with the partners we want. Damon understood that from the jump. He understood that PrEP is a tool of pleasure. And that pleasure, gosh darn it, is a human right.
Although Damon’s now thriving in his 50s living in New York City, it wasn’t always so easy. He came out in 1988 right smack dab in the middle of the AIDS crisis. Let’s take a listen.
Damon L. Jacobs (01:49)
So I am originally from Los Angeles, California, actually Culver City. My background is in mental health, so I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist, both in the state of New York and California. And to me, as someone who came out as gay at the age of 17, which was 1988,
in the midst of the AIDS crisis, but also very dedicated to wanting to be part of healing and therapeutic movement in this community. It seemed imperative not to be the traditional clinical model of mental health, where you just kind of sit on your ass and people come in and they talk about the past. They talk about their mother, their father, their dead dog, Rover. To me, it was really important and imperative to serve the community in a way that was more immediate, that was more urgent, because the AIDS crisis wasn’t something in the past.
It was something that was acute and it was something that was traumatic and it was impacting people in the here and the now. And it wasn’t, so it really called upon a different set of clinical skills. That’s where advocacy came in for me, that mental health is a form of advocacy. The way we use our minds, the way we use our hearts, the way we use our souls, the way we use our bodies to connect is a form of resistance and a form of health. And that was the basis of how I’m ending up in having this conversation with you.
back in the 80s and 90s is when I started. Most recently now in the last 13 years, the form that’s taken on is learning about PrEP in 2011, deciding for myself that I wanted to use PrEP in 2011, began using it, and then started realizing, wow, this is like this amazing thing. For the first time in my life, I can have the kind of seggs that I want, i .e. bottoming without condoms, without fear of getting HIV, and…
Isn’t this amazing? This is not only helping my sexual health, this is helping my mental health. This is like this incredible burden that’s lifted and I didn’t fully comprehend that the burden had been there for most of my life. The fear of HIV and AIDS was lifted and what that made space for spiritually and emotionally once that fear was gone was phenomenal. So I was like, this is the most amazing thing. I want everybody else to learn about this.
Trevor Hoppe (04:00)
Hahaha
Damon L. Jacobs (04:01)
And it was bizarre to me that no one at the time, not the media, not the agencies, not the organizations, not the press, would talk about PrEP. So I started talking about PrEP. I started speaking about it, teaching about it, and then starting this Facebook group about it so that anybody in the world starting in 2013 could learn about PrEP. They could see the data, the science, the facts, the information, and have discussions and questions and doubts and even debates.
about perhaps efficacy and effectiveness and how we could integrate this into a new HIV strategy that involves pleasure at the center.
Trevor Hoppe (04:36)
I love that. A pleasure at the center is kind of key to my philosophy as well. But sort of, and we’re going to get to prep, but before we get into prep, let’s go back in time to the 1980s because you are coming out, as you say, in Los Angeles in the 80s. What was it like to have a sexual awakening in that moment, in that context?
Damon L. Jacobs (04:59)
It was clouded by AIDS and I didn’t even know that I was, I didn’t know what seggs was or what anal seggs was or what even gay seggs was before I learned about AIDS. I remember my mother, she and I would like read the afternoon paper. There was like a newspaper called The Evening Outlook that would come to our house. And sometimes she would go over stories with me. And one day it’s like, this was 1981 or 82.
She showed me this story about all these homosexual men that were dying of a gay cancer. And she was saying, this is really sad. And I was like, yeah, this is really sad. But I didn’t really understand the implications of what that would mean in my life. All I knew is, you can’t be gay. You can’t be homosexual. Because if you are, you’re going to die. Not only are you going to die young, but you’re going to die a really painful, tragic death.
And so the more pictures that came out, the more the media did start covering it, the more once Rock Hudson was outed as he was dying of AIDS, the more the message was embedded into me, you can’t do that. If you do that, if you have seggs, that’s gonna be you. You’re gonna look like Rock Hudson someday. I was like, no, I don’t want that. So that was at odds with my teenage hormones revving up. I have always been a huge soap opera fan.
Trevor Hoppe (06:15)
Yeah
Damon L. Jacobs (06:18)
And NBC was very kind to show a lot of male skin, specifically like Harry Men ruled the roast in the 1980s on daytime soap operas. You had Days of Our Lives, you had Bo Brady, you had Peter Love on Another World, you had Ted Capwell on Santa Barbara taking off their shirts almost every day. So my teenage hormones were like going crazy. But it was still like, no, you can’t do that because you’re going to die. If you do that, you’re going to die. If you act on that, you’re going to die.
Trevor Hoppe (06:34)
Ha ha.
Damon L. Jacobs (06:46)
The thing that started to pivot my understanding was in 1987, May of 1987, at the end of my 10th grade year, we were gathered into the assembly room at my high school and we were told that we were gonna see a film, but our parents had to sign off on it. And so it’s like, ooh, what kind of film is this? What they showed us was a film about how to prevent AIDS. And Whoopi Goldberg was a speaker and a bunch of other people.
Trevor Hoppe (07:12)
Huh?
Damon L. Jacobs (07:14)
And they were saying that if you have seggs, it is important and imperative you use a condom. That if you use a condom, you can have penetrative seggs and not get AIDS or reduce the likelihood of getting AIDS. And that was when it started to click for me. It’s like, you mean maybe I could do some of those things. I don’t even know what it is I want to do. But if I do it, maybe I could do it and not die if I use condoms. So that started getting into my brain. And I still didn’t act on anything until like,
Trevor Hoppe (07:20)
Wow.
Damon L. Jacobs (07:44)
12th grade and it was still very, very light stuff even through that. It was really hard to find partners, you know, I’m still in the 80s and still, you know, LA was pretty liberal but still pretty hard to find people to be with. But I started to understand, well I started to understand that I could experiment and do these things as long as condoms were used. How did I find partners? It began, so me, I was kind of the freaks and geeks crowd, we were sort of the outsiders.
Trevor Hoppe (07:51)
Yeah.
How did you find?
Damon L. Jacobs (08:12)
We would go to Rocky Horror a lot at the New Art Theater on Saturday nights. And at New Art Theater, there were a lot of the alternative kids. And there was one guy who used to play Brad every week who was openly gay. And it was the first time I had ever known, I had known some gay people before, but they were all very miserable, depressed, and not very nice to be around. This guy whose name is Mike was the first time at Rocky Horror that I saw someone who was out and not hiding it and not ashamed of it.
Trevor Hoppe (08:14)
Ahahaha!
Yeah.
Damon L. Jacobs (08:40)
and really celebratory about it. And I couldn’t come out to him, but I just sort of fed off his energy by osmosis. The first person I ever came out to was my very best friend Lisa at the very end of 11th grade. And Lisa used to sleep in her closet, and I came out to her in her closet, so I came out of the closet in the closet. And she was wonderfully supportive, but I still didn’t know anybody or still have any friends. Eventually, I kind of skipping ahead a little bit, but eventually I f –
Trevor Hoppe (08:46)
Yeah.
Ha ha ha ha
Damon L. Jacobs (09:09)
found there was another guy in high school at Culver City High who was out and explained to me how to sneak into the West Hollywood bars on certain nights at certain times of the day. I was 17 years, I’m 53 now and I look a little bit younger. Imagine what I looked like when I was 17. But he showed me how to get a fake ID through UCLA, a foreign traveler ID, which we did. And I started going out to gay bars like Revolver and Mickey’s.
Trevor Hoppe (09:12)
-huh.
a baby.
-huh.
Damon L. Jacobs (09:38)
in like 1989 when I was 17, 18 years old. That was when I started to meet and play with gay men.
Trevor Hoppe (09:39)
Wow.
That’s fabulous. I had a similar experience getting an ID in high school. It used to be easier back in the day to finagle your way into these places. So what, how do you remember those first early experiences? Like what were they like?
Damon L. Jacobs (09:55)
Yeah!
So they were, my goodness, so I had kissed many girls, not done much, never had seggs, just kissed girls, and thought, okay, this is fine, this feels nice. Most of my friends were older, and at the end of 11th grade, a whole bunch of us went to the prom. I knew I was never gonna go to my own prom, but I’d go to my friend’s prom who were graduating a year ahead of me. A bunch of us got a limo and got a hotel room at the Bonaventure in downtown LA. And we went to the prom, and we were, it was very G -rated, but we were just like,
Trevor Hoppe (10:23)
-huh.
Mm -hmm.
Damon L. Jacobs (10:33)
hanging out, drinking, talking, whatever. And at one point during this night, at one point there was a boy, he didn’t go to our high school, he was the date of a friend of mine, a female friend, but at one point I just started rubbing his shoulders, that’s it. And the charge that I got and the erection I got just from touching a man’s shoulders was enough to tell me,
Trevor Hoppe (10:58)
Mm -hmm.
Damon L. Jacobs (11:00)
You never feel this way when you kiss girls. You never feel this way when you touch girls. That was electric, just to touch a boy’s shoulders. I still couldn’t do anything about it, but that was the information. Nothing else happened in my life until senior year of high school. I was visiting UC Santa Cruz because I was thinking of going to school there. And I was visiting this party with a bunch of fresh people, freshmen.
Trevor Hoppe (11:08)
Wow.
Damon L. Jacobs (11:26)
And this boy named Ken was very flirtatious, but it was still, he was straight. But you know, again, we were up, we were talking, we were drinking, and he just got flirtatious. I came back the next day, told him that I had, I thought I had left my glasses in his room. That was a lie. But I was like, can I go to your room? Because I think I left my glasses here last night. He’s like, okay. We went to his room and we started making out. Like,
Trevor Hoppe (11:55)
Yes!
Damon L. Jacobs (11:56)
heavy making out. And that’s all we did. I mean, I think he touched my penis. I think I touched him, but that’s it. There was no comp. But again, from that experience, I was like, that was the most amazing experience. And that was like, okay, you’re definitely gay. You’re definitely gay. I still couldn’t explore anything, but I was going back and forth and going up to Santa Cruz, because I had friends who were living there, would go and experiment with some of the guys who lived there.
Trevor Hoppe (12:02)
Mm -hmm.
Damon L. Jacobs (12:21)
And so it started to be this thing that I do when I go somewhere else, still no f***ing, just simply touching penises, kissing, rubbing, just starting to get acquainted with the human with a man’s body. And just like how amazing that felt. And fortunately there was one guy named Stu who explained to me while we were naked and hard, he explained to me what a condom was and how to put it on.
Trevor Hoppe (12:38)
huh.
Wow.
Damon L. Jacobs (12:50)
and how to use it. He said, we’re not gonna f**k but I want you to know how to do this. He did it, he put a condom on himself, then he showed me how to do it, and that was invaluable because he explained things I didn’t know, like you have to pinch the tip in order to reduce the air. He explained to me how to make it feel good if you put a little bit of lube inside. He explained to me how we could eroticize condom use when we’re having seggs, if we’re choosing to have seggs. His name is Stu. Yeah. Yeah.
Trevor Hoppe (12:55)
you
Mm -hmm.
Stu? Stu? God bless you, Stu. You are doing a service.
Damon L. Jacobs (13:19)
God bless dude. So those were the early experiences of being taught about seggs and pleasure, but also about HIV prevention from my sexual partners. And still didn’t do anything sexual, like nothing sexual until, well, exactly like 4th of July weekend, 1989, after I graduated high school and went crazy in West Hollywood and just absolutely went crazy. Started kissing and rubbing, having naked, and eventually, for the first time, had anal seggs as a top.
with a guy who I met fourth of July weekend in 1989. And that was again, like, my God, all of these encounters, all these men, they were mostly older, you know, older at the time was like thirties, forties. But just how amazing that felt, how beautiful they were, how good they smelled and how wonderful it was to be able to share that experience.
Trevor Hoppe (14:12)
So it sounds like it was a lot of play. I mean, it sounds very playful in the sense that like you’re kind of exploring, you don’t really have a strong, were you watching gay porn?
Damon L. Jacobs (14:26)
No, I mean, how would I get it? There wasn’t, there was no internet, there was no gay porn. I didn’t have it, you know, but I had NBC. I had the daytime soap operas. I mean, that pretty much, I was, you know, there were the soap operas and there was the Sears catalog, which usually had a shirtless hairy guy in it somewhere. That was about all I had and my imagination. So that was what I used. There was no porn available at the time.
Trevor Hoppe (14:28)
Yeah. Yeah.
The So Soap Opera! That was your porn!
Mm -hmm
Yeah.
Damon L. Jacobs (14:54)
And it wasn’t really, again, most of these experiences in the 80s and early 90s for me wasn’t about f***ing. It wasn’t goal oriented. It wasn’t about topping or bottoming. Most of them were about kissing or rubbing or mutual masturbation or oral seggs, but we didn’t really use the terms top or bottom because, you know, again, because of the AIDS crisis and because we didn’t have, remember, we didn’t have HIV testing that was sufficient back then. So.
Trevor Hoppe (15:20)
Yeah.
Damon L. Jacobs (15:21)
If you went for an HIV test, they told you, okay, the test you’re gonna get today is only really gonna tell us where you were at six months ago. So none of us truly, if we were having seggs and not known to be HIV positive, we didn’t know for sure if we were HIV positive or not. So there wasn’t a lot, at least in my world, there was not a lot of f***ing going on. It was more about sensual play and touch and cum, but.
you don’t taste it or you just like rub it or it was, yeah.
Trevor Hoppe (15:55)
So when do you think… Yeah, I mean, I kind of love that because it’s so different from today where fucking is so like, it’s like so central and I feel like there was a time where that was not the case. When do you feel like that changed for you? When did fucking become more important to you?
Damon L. Jacobs (15:55)
Fucking was not the main ingredient.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Bottoming? I mean, I always enjoyed bottoming from the very first time I tried it in 1989. Well, let me go back, because I think you asked about early experiences. I didn’t, you know, as much as I didn’t know, I really didn’t know anything about bottoming other than use a condom. Other than that, I didn’t know anything. I didn’t know anything about lube, didn’t know anything about cleaning out. I don’t remember ever having conversations about douching or cleaning out ever back in the 80s.
Trevor Hoppe (16:19)
Hmm.
Ha ha.
Damon L. Jacobs (16:41)
There was no education or information that was available for me to know how to enjoy anal seggs. So I have to say that some of the early experiences were rather painful because there wasn’t a lot of communication. There were condoms, but I didn’t realize at the time the way latex scrapes against the anal tissue in a way that’s sometimes really painful and burning and causes bleeding. So.
Trevor Hoppe (17:04)
Right.
Damon L. Jacobs (17:10)
Although these experiences were not physically the most gratifying, they were psychologically and it like amazing. Like you said, I didn’t, you know, where was the porn? I didn’t have porn, but the idea of being penetrated by a man, having a man inside me was exactly the fantasy, the ravishment, the extraordinary experience that I enjoyed so much. Even if it wasn’t physically the most gratifying, it was psychologically so gratifying.
So that became more of a regular part of my sexual practice, I’d say probably in the mid 90s, because I moved to San Francisco. I was living in San Francisco on and off between 90, 93, lived there permanently from 1993 onward and was very much part for a while, part of club life. Club life had a lot of drugs and a lot of drugs meant not always a lot of erections, but I…
Trevor Hoppe (17:47)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Damon L. Jacobs (18:05)
stopped using drugs on a regular basis between 94 and 95. And then it was like, okay, now I’m kind of more into the seggs part and the penetrative part. And it started to feel like culturally, and again, there’s no data, but it just in my own anecdotal experience, it started to feel like people were becoming more comfortable with penetrative seggs again in the mid 90s. Like we had kind of gone through the worst of the crisis.
Trevor Hoppe (18:28)
Hmm.
Damon L. Jacobs (18:32)
Maybe not the worst, but it’s like a lot of us were now been coming out during the time of AIDS. We understood how to fuck with condoms and prevent the transmission of HIV. And we were doing it and there was a lot more of it. And so the more experience that I had as a bottom, the more I started to understand how to physically get pleasure from it. The psychological pleasure always there, but also the physical pleasure started to make sense.
Trevor Hoppe (18:55)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Damon L. Jacobs (19:00)
as I started to believe more, as I started to have more experiences, as I started to trust condoms more, that if a man’s inside me, because I still have the Rock Hudson programming, if you do that, you’re going to die. Once I started to be able to have regular experiences bottoming with condoms without testing positive for HIV, I started to trust the process more. And of course, we know when we’re trusting the process, our bodies respond in a more affirmative way. Our bodies are wired for pleasure, but some of those
Trevor Hoppe (19:01)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Damon L. Jacobs (19:30)
point, pleasure points are closed up if we’re worried or scared. Once we start to eliminate or release some of the scare and the worry, some of the pleasure started to become more available for me on the physical level as well. Once I started to, I still didn’t know anything about douching or cleaning out, but I started to understand my body enough to know that there’s certain times I’m unlikely to st on somebody when they’re f*ing me. And again, that was still with condoms. So like, all right, worst case scenario, it gets on the condom. And worst case scenario, what did happen sometimes.
Trevor Hoppe (19:59)
Yeah, of course.
Damon L. Jacobs (20:00)
but it was still like gradually releasing fear around all of that, all of that. And that was proceeding more and more and more throughout the mid, late 1990s.
Trevor Hoppe (20:11)
Yeah, it strikes me that the treatments for HIV were introduced in 1996 and it’s like, it just seems like that might be a parallel story there that that also might have allowed people to take a breath and to explore a little more outside of that fear. Hmm.
Damon L. Jacobs (20:25)
Mm -hmm.
Well, I don’t correlate that. I don’t correlate that, and here’s why. We didn’t, first of all, in 1996, people forget the early cocktail, the ARTs, were not user -friendly. They were not conducive to sexy time. They usually made people quite sick. They had severe side effects. The friends I knew that were on those early cocktails stopped using them, largely because it involved taking eight pills three times a day, 24 pills a day. They had to be done right on time.
Trevor Hoppe (20:38)
Yeah.
Damon L. Jacobs (20:56)
And they often created nausea and explosive diarrhea. And sometimes the facial wasting and the lipodystrophy. So a lot of people weren’t using the drugs. And we didn’t know how, we didn’t understand undetectable was untransmittable back then. We didn’t understand that there was actually a prevention component to treatment. So I don’t think at that point, the ARTs contributed to more sexual freedom. Not yet anyway.
Trevor Hoppe (21:13)
course.
Hmm? Yeah.
Damon L. Jacobs (21:27)
I think they started to more in the early 2000s, once some of the side effects became manageable and the quantity of meds became more manageable. That instead of taking eight pills three times a day, it was more like people started needing to use four pills two times a day. It became more relatable with less side effects. And then, yeah, people started getting healthier, feeling more sexy. And then I think that really led to a bit of a sexual renaissance throughout the early 2000s.
But we still, at least I didn’t know as a negative person, how powerful the ARTs were in preventing. I started to learn how powerful they were in saving lives, but not in HIV prevention. That didn’t come till much later.
Trevor Hoppe (22:10)
Mm hmm. And in your story, it sounds like you your first experiences were topping, but it sounds like there was always maybe not always, but a growing sense of a desire to bottom. What is so so just to be clear, it sounds like you identify as a bottom. That is a term you’ve used. Yeah.
Damon L. Jacobs (22:31)
Identify as a person who loves seggs.
Trevor Hoppe (22:34)
Yeah, that’s good. I love that. Absolutely. So you don’t use that term.
Damon L. Jacobs (22:38)
So for me, huh. You know, Trevor, I just, I’m gonna sound really cliche. I don’t like labels. You know, I’m willing to explain if people wanna know, when people wanna know. It’s like, what is my preferred position? Yes, bottom, absolutely. Preferred position, 35 years now. Ain’t gonna change. I can be versatile under certain conditions. I can be versatile when I’m really attracted to somebody or when there’s a certain kind of energy with somebody. But for the most part,
Trevor Hoppe (23:04)
Mm -hmm.
Damon L. Jacobs (23:08)
It’s going to be a bottom thing, but I just want to add that, especially now that I’m in my 50s, I’ve come back to exploring and creating ways of connecting and having immense pleasure with partners that don’t involve f***ing. And I like that there’s sort of a menu. You know, when I started on prep,
Trevor Hoppe (23:26)
Mm -hmm.
Damon L. Jacobs (23:31)
because I hadn’t done the kind of f***ing I wanted to do for like the previous 20 years. It was like, all right, I’m making up for lost time here. Bottom, bottom, bottom, fuck, fuck, fuck. You know, it was like, yeah, it was very goal oriented. No, you’re gonna fuck me or you’re not. Now I’m sort of like, okay, I still love that. And it’s still meaningful. And I still love the psychology and the emotion and spirituality of a man penetrating me and coming inside me. I still love that. That is sacred and beautiful. And I’ve also understood that there’s often ways of.
Trevor Hoppe (23:36)
Yeah. Woo!
Damon L. Jacobs (24:00)
feeling connected and having immense orgasmic pleasure in other parts of my body that are not centered in penetration.
Trevor Hoppe (24:10)
Yeah, it sounds like, and this is a narrative I’ve kind of heard from friends. And so I think you’re putting it into words in a way that I hadn’t quite thought about, but sort of prep and U equals U kind of may have allowed for this explosion of exploration of anal sex in a way that maybe it wasn’t possible before. And now that we’ve kind of…
We did that, like we explored, baby. I feel like many gay men had a lot of fun, queer men had a lot of that. And now that you’re kind of looking for other possibilities, now that you’ve explored that, is that fair?
Damon L. Jacobs (24:46)
Or that I’m returning because that’s kind of again what I was doing most of my 20s was you know, not really penetrative focused saying it would happen sometimes but that wasn’t necessarily the goal or the focus now, you know, a lot of my partners are in their 50s and 60s. So erections are not always readily available for us. Sometimes they are but not always and so it makes sense for us to expand and enhance our experience of connected pleasure and really explore
Trevor Hoppe (24:49)
Full circle.
Yeah.
Damon L. Jacobs (25:15)
how our bodies can achieve orgasm even when our penises are not directly involved. And believe me, there are ways. But it’s sort of for me like a return to earlier learning. And again, I’m the best, I love PrEP, I love U equals U. I love talking about all the things. I love talking about doxycycline to prevent STIs. The thing I’d wanna make sure we’re not doing
Trevor Hoppe (25:22)
Haha, yeah.
Yes.
Damon L. Jacobs (25:45)
is where I work with younger people who have come out in a time of PrEP and U equals U. And that is so wonderful because I love seeing young people who have never been through the trauma and the fear of losing someone to HIV or AIDS. And I love that. The only seen downside that I’m seeing is that sometimes they are being told or conditioned that they must label themselves as a top or a bottom or now even a side.
Trevor Hoppe (26:07)
Mmm.
Damon L. Jacobs (26:11)
But to me, that’s a quantitative label is the limitation. And I don’t think any of us deserve to be limited sexually in how we give and receive pleasure. So that’s why I’m reluctant to use these labels.
Trevor Hoppe (26:22)
Hmm.
I totally hear that. I mean, I think the label is useful potentially in a moment and then over a long period of time can become, I don’t wanna say a prison because that’s an exaggeration, but can confine you in a certain way. It limits the options. So yeah, I mean, I’m all for exploring and removing limits.
Damon L. Jacobs (26:43)
Yeah.
Trevor Hoppe (26:51)
And I think side has opened. What do you think of side? I’m curious because I just met Joe Court, who’s the inventor of side. So we were talking about that. What’s your, do you find that term useful?
Damon L. Jacobs (27:05)
I mean, it’s new and I’m glad if people feel empowered by it, then I want them to use whatever words they feel empowered by. Again, I don’t fully, that’s, when I ask people what that means, it just sounds like, that’s kind of what we did in the 80s and 90s. Okay, well that’s nice and it is nice and there’s a lot of fun there. And I want people to be, you know, for me, what PrEP really means, P -R -E -P, it means ways that we can be proactive, responsible, and empowered.
Trevor Hoppe (27:13)
Yeah.
Damon L. Jacobs (27:34)
about our pleasure, proactive, responsible, empowered pleasure. So for some, that’s saying, I don’t want to have anal seggs. I don’t enjoy it, or maybe it grosses me out, or maybe I don’t want to deal with it. Maybe it just feels like a big pressure or a should that I don’t want to have to deal with. Great. So if side helps you to open up your mind and your body to all of the pleasure that’s available for you, then have at it. Do it, use it, cite it, whatever. I just still
Trevor Hoppe (27:42)
Mm -hmm.
Damon L. Jacobs (28:05)
question why we need to have quantifiable labels at all. And again, I’m not saying they’re bad. I don’t yuck anybody’s youngs. But if, like you said earlier, are they limiting the range of possible pleasure? That’s where I come in with that question. I’m not saying that they always do. But when someone says, I’m just this, I’m just a side, I’m just a top, I’m just a bottom I think you’re limiting. It’s like me going into the best Italian restaurant in the world and saying, well, I just eat Alfredo.
Trevor Hoppe (28:08)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Mmm.
Mm -hmm.
Damon L. Jacobs (28:34)
And that’s it. That’s the only thing. It’s like, well, that’s nice. But, you know, you may also like some other stuff on the menu. You might want to try some other stuff on the menu just to see if you like it. Because if you like, catch a toy, then you might actually find that there’s more than one thing on the menu that you enjoy. And you may not always want Alfredo, so you can try penne or pesto or, you know, there’s a lot of ways to savor pleasure that I want people to remember and to be open to.
Trevor Hoppe (28:37)
I know people like that.
Try the meatballs!
Damon L. Jacobs (29:04)
as we increase and enhance the possibility of quality connections in our.
Trevor Hoppe (29:09)
Yeah, I think, you know, people want to… Is this a human instinct? I don’t know, but we like to have a term to describe ourselves. We like to have these labels for better or for worse. And we see this among, you know, the explosion of categories like aromantic, demiromantic, demisexual. And there is an impulse of me as I get older to be like, gosh, do we need these terms? They’re just…
they’re describing things that have always existed, of course. And yet it sort of gives validation to, you know, people who, for example, aside who maybe feel like anal sex, you know, doesn’t call them in the same way. I don’t know, it’s a tough one. I feel you though. It’s like, it’s a double edged sword and it can go either way potentially.
Damon L. Jacobs (30:01)
It can, and I guess sort of the way around that for me as, again, this is my training, but this is also my humanity, is stay actively curious. Don’t assume. So if I’m getting to know someone or having a real conversation with someone and they say, you know, I’m a side, if that’s what they identify, I’d be like, okay, so may I ask what that means for you? You know, because it might mean something, I might be assuming something. I might being, it means one thing and you might.
Trevor Hoppe (30:23)
Sure, yeah, tell me more.
Damon L. Jacobs (30:29)
think it means something else. And so, okay, I just, you know, I don’t just assume that because you’re using certain terminology like demisexual or this or that, that I always have the same understanding. So I stay actively curious if I’m really intention, if the intention is to really get to know somebody and the way they think and feel and the way they experience the world, then I ask questions.
Trevor Hoppe (30:42)
Absolutely.
Yes, questions are great. I’m so we’re going to get to the good stuff with the good sex, the best sex. But before we get to the best sex, I always like to take a pit stop to talk about how we got there, which usually is through some trial and error. So is there are there some experiences that you can think of of kind of bad disappointing sex that that helped you learn to get to the good stuff?
Damon L. Jacobs (30:58)
Ooh, especially the good stuff.
you know, so I think it’s a… everything is trial and error. I mean, and I think every mistake is a way to learn and that’s how I treat everything. You know, learning my own body, learning how not to st during anal seggs. No one, at least in my world, gives us instructions how to do that. At least I never had instructions. So it was really trial and error. So I apologize to anybody I ever st on in the last 35 years. Didn’t happen a lot, but yeah, it happens sometimes because I didn’t know. I didn’t really know.
Trevor Hoppe (31:34)
Mmm.
Ha ha.
Damon L. Jacobs (31:49)
how to prepare and I didn’t know how my body works that I could have been as preventive about that. So, hey, those were things that did not go well. In terms of other people, the experiences that have not been so pleasant are when somebody’s not, when somebody’s on meth, and I’m really trying not to judge drug use, but for me, sexually, it’s not a turn on because it’s just like we’re on two different.
planets. We are in very different worlds. I don’t find seggs pleasurable when there’s a disconnect for any reason. Doesn’t mean we have to be exactly like on the same page, but if there’s a really clear disconnect mentally and chemically, that to me is not sexy and not enjoyable. And sometimes I’ve tried to just go through with it just to see. And every time I’ve tried when someone’s been on meth, it’s been like, nah, that wasn’t good. That didn’t work out well. I don’t feel good about that.
So that is definitely now a no. Like that’s a clear no for me, a deal breaker. That if someone’s on meth, I just, I can’t. I mean, literally I can’t. I can’t, like my body, like I can’t get a boner. I can’t get into it erotically or, you know, I can’t get erect with someone who is on that kind of planet. It just doesn’t work anymore. You know, the thing that really…
The thing that is like kind of, I wish that people wouldn’t do, cause it’s a turn off for me, is like manscaping in a way that they’re stubble. Because if that’s gonna, you know, to me it’s sort of like, that’s some of the most amazing part of the man’s human body, his body hair. And if he chops it off or scrapes it off or whatever, and then, but if there’s sort of the promise it’s gonna be there and then he takes off his clothes and it’s not there, again.
Trevor Hoppe (33:19)
Mmm.
Damon L. Jacobs (33:37)
That’s an erotic, that’s like a boner killer for me. It’s like, you kind of promise one thing and deliver it on another. And I can’t tell anyone what to do with their body or how to handle their body dysmorphia, but I do wish people, if they’re gonna do it, be open about it. Don’t say you’re hairy if you’re not, or don’t, you know, that would be, so the experiences that I’ve had where people have done that and have gone through with it anyway, again, not trusting my intuition.
Trevor Hoppe (33:44)
It’s a mini catfish.
-huh.
Damon L. Jacobs (34:02)
But I’ve said like, all right, well, he’s here. I feel bad. Maybe I’m being petty. Maybe I’m being silly. Maybe I’m being stupid. Ain’t gone through with it anyway. Have just not been satisfying or gratifying for me. So that’s sort of a no as well.
Trevor Hoppe (34:15)
And so it sounds like in those both the the meth and the body hair, those are things that you didn’t know in advance, but then became apparent when they came over. Is that correct?
Damon L. Jacobs (34:28)
Sometimes, yeah, sometimes they surprise. With meth, sometimes people have been open about it and they’ve been like, okay, well, you seem like a nice person. Let’s just see how this goes. And it just has never really gone well.
Trevor Hoppe (34:33)
Okay.
Let’s try. All right, so in both cases though, it sounds like you’re are, are, how do you prevent that from happening? I guess, like what, what are your tips? Cause, cause this is a common thing, right? People are not finding the sex that they want and they’re having these encounters that aren’t fulfilling in this way. How do you kind of, what advice would you give to people to, to, to avoid those outcomes?
Damon L. Jacobs (35:02)
Well, so when it comes to drugs, or specifically really meth, I have it very clear on my profiles if I’m really scruff or sniffies are the ones I use the most. And it’s very clear, like no, please no drugs, no capital T’s. And that usually filters out most of the people, because usually when people are partying, they usually want to be with other people who are partying. So for the most part, not completely, but that filters out a lot right there. No partying, no capital T’s, no.
Trevor Hoppe (35:22)
Yeah.
Damon L. Jacobs (35:31)
So, and then I find that people at least are usually kind of polite about it, like, hey, I’m partying, you too? And then I’m like, no, no, thank you. So that helps too. So if somebody tells me they’re partying or they’re using capital T, that’s no thank you. I make, you know, there’s no way to really filter out people who are, have stubble, but I am very clear when I’m talking to somebody, if they’re hairy, I’m like, yeah, I really like your hairy chest. That’s really, you know.
I’d like to touch that. And again, if they’re not hairy at that point, I have found people who have been open like, well I was in that picture, but I’m not now. I’m like, okay, well, then maybe hit me back in a few weeks. Or, you know, it’s like, but I just don’t want to, you know, really, I don’t want to waste anyone’s time at this stage. And, you know, and just like, all right, I have, again, I’m not saying this is a 100 % thing, but at this,
point in my 50s, I have a fair idea of what is turning me on and what’s not. Now, again, that’s not an absolute. I’m not saying that it’s quantifiably a shut door, because sometimes there’s chemistry, and when there’s chemistry, there’s chemistry, and that sort of supersedes all of the things we’re talking about. But if it’s just a casual thing or meeting somebody, yeah, if there’s stubble, it’s kind of a turnoff. And again, one of the ways that you sort of sidestep that is that if you’re meeting in person,
Whether it’s a bar or a club or an orgy, you get to see what you’re getting pretty quickly. You can sort of feel it out or see it.
Trevor Hoppe (37:05)
Yeah, definitely. I mean, in person, obviously, these things are apparent. Online, as we all know, there can be surprises when people get to the door. And there’s no perfect filter. But no, I like that idea of you’re kind of suggesting making clear your erotic attachment to this thing that they have. And so that if that thing is not there anymore or is different than the way they are in the moment, then…
Damon L. Jacobs (37:12)
There can be surprises, yeah.
Trevor Hoppe (37:30)
You know, if they’re blonde in their picture and you’re like, I love blondes. They’re like, I’m not blonde anymore. You know, you kind of make it into a positive rather than a negative. So I like that. You’re like, I’m really into that. And that gives them the opportunity.
Damon L. Jacobs (37:40)
Yeah. And again, sometimes there can be, even online, even like when you’re typing, there can be a chemistry. I can feel the chemistry. And if there’s a chemistry, if there’s an energy that overrides everything, he might say, I want to top and not be able to get direction. Well, if there’s a chemistry, then we’re going to have a lot of fun. We’re going to work with that. He might say he’s hairy and then show up and he’s not.
Trevor Hoppe (37:49)
Yeah, of course.
Damon L. Jacobs (38:04)
But if he’s got chemistry and we have this connection that you can’t describe, but when there’s chemistry, there’s chemistry, we’re still gonna have a good time.
Trevor Hoppe (38:12)
So now I’m just curious on your profiles, do you just leave the top bottom verse blank?
Damon L. Jacobs (38:18)
If I’m forced to identify, I’d say a verse bottom. Or there may be times that I’m feeling more verse than others and I’ll just say versatile. But it’s usually verse bottom.
Trevor Hoppe (38:22)
Okay, alright.
Because I’m just curious, because I think there are people out there who can be into different things depending on the person and the context and their mood. And I think we struggle with that tab sometimes, right? Like, what do I say? And I mean, my solution has been to say what’s the moment. What is the moment? And that changes potentially daily. But.
Damon L. Jacobs (38:48)
Yeah, I mean, look, all the apps have the options that you can change. You can change in any time. Again, when I do that, I’m identifying a preference, not an identity. That’s not my identity, that’s my preference. So I’m comfortable saying that. Yeah. Yeah.
Trevor Hoppe (39:01)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I hear you. I was just kind of curious. So we’ve got these strategies for kind of filtering out. And it sounds like part of that is knowing what your deal breakers are. Isn’t that fair? Yeah, I think it takes us a long time to figure that out. I mean, just in my experience as well, it wasn’t until really my late 30s, 40s where I was like, yes, I’m not into this. And I need to make that clear.
Damon L. Jacobs (39:13)
Mm -hmm. yeah.
Yeah. Well, again, in every other part of our culture, when we talk about savoring pleasure, we make room to try new things. So again, like food. If we go to food, if I was a foodie, they wouldn’t call me a food whore, they’d call me a foodie, right? They wouldn’t call me a food slut. They’d be like, great, let’s create reality shows around you. But if you want to be a foodie and you savor food,
then you’re encouraged to try and taste as many delicacies as you can. So you get to learn more about food and more about what you personally like and what you personally don’t. And we reward people for that. I think we deserve to do the same thing when it comes to seggs. That we deserve to have agency. And when I say agency around seggs, what I mean is the ability with reasonable effort to say yes.
Trevor Hoppe (39:57)
You
Damon L. Jacobs (40:20)
to the things that are definitely a yes, to say no to the things that are definitely a no, and to say maybe to the things that might be a maybe. And the only way we ever get to learning about what might be a yes or what might be a no is through the maybe. So we want to have agency in terms of discovering and savoring different experiences, different
Trevor Hoppe (40:33)
in between.
Damon L. Jacobs (40:50)
different sexual activities, different flavors, different ages, different races, different hair follicle levels, different anything. To be able to understand what you may prefer. And there’s only one way that I know of to ever learn this, which is to try it. Find out. Try it. You might hate anal seggs. And if you don’t like bottoming, hey, there’s like, okay, we don’t need more bottoms out there. But you…
Trevor Hoppe (41:10)
Practice, practice, practice.
Damon L. Jacobs (41:19)
Don’t know unless you try it. You know, you may not ever want to do anal seggs, but you’re not gonna know unless you try it. You may have a thing like no guy’s over 40, but unless you’ve actually been with a man over 40, and I’m not just one, I can say try several, you’re really not gonna know what that experience offers you until you try it. And you may try it and you still may decide, no, I don’t like men over 40. Well, all right.
Trevor Hoppe (41:43)
-huh.
Damon L. Jacobs (41:48)
But then at least you tried it and then you have agency around that decision.
Trevor Hoppe (41:52)
Definitely. Agency is a great concept, especially around sex because we can lose track of it sometimes, I think. Even saying not just the no part, but also the yes. I think the yes is critical that we don’t appreciate as well. Just like leaning into the stuff that feels good and that you like. So I appreciate both sides, you pointing to both sides of that coin.
Damon L. Jacobs (42:18)
Yeah.
Trevor Hoppe (42:20)
Before we leave the bad stuff, I just have one more kind of question that I’m curious about. If you’ve had a bad encounter with someone, or bad for whatever reason, are you willing to go back for seconds?
Damon L. Jacobs (42:33)
it’s so funny you mentioned this because like right now in my mind is kind of that experience. I wouldn’t say bad. But like this guy last week who I met on Scruff who is really hot and all his pictures were hot and everything appeared like we appeared to have chemistry. And I got to his place and I worked late, but he let me come over after work. So this is like 12 and
He seemed a little off and just a little something felt a little off. And then he did reveal that he had done cocaine earlier.
And again, I’m not putting down drugs. I’m just saying, all right, well, he’s on cocaine or had been on cocaine. I’m not on cocaine. So that means, sort of explains why there was sort of like, it feels like we’re on two different planets. He’s sort of speaking in a tone and a nuance and a pace that’s different from where I’m at. And sort of his brain seems to be operating in a way that’s kind of different from mine. So it was a pleasant, I’d say it was a very neutral.
Trevor Hoppe (43:18)
Rawr.
Damon L. Jacobs (43:38)
thing and you know we still played together he was very sweet. I am not sure that’s an experience I want to replicate. I’m not sure I don’t. I’m still kind of considering that but that’s an example of like okay that was sort of not a great experience but he seems to be a cool person and I may just say if there’s a possibility of the next time because he may not have felt connection either. I mean you know it’s very possible that he felt the same thing I felt.
Trevor Hoppe (43:50)
Mmm.
Damon L. Jacobs (44:06)
which was like, he’s a nice guy, but we didn’t have much of a connection. If there is an opportunity to have a next time, I will make it clear. I really prefer that you haven’t used cocaine earlier that night or day.
Trevor Hoppe (44:20)
No, that’s helpful. So you’re open to it within the right context.
Damon L. Jacobs (44:26)
Yeah, if someone seems to be a cool person and nice and like kindness goes a long way in my world. If you’re basically a decent person and a good communicator and you seem like you’re kind and you give a s**t about the world you live in, I’m willing to go a second round even if it’s not the best experience because you know, again, in this realm of discovery and play, sometimes we learn new things that we didn’t learn the first time.
Sometimes there’s reason to consider having an experience. And then maybe there’s a second time and you come away the second time saying, yeah, that wasn’t so great. My, you know, the first experience was indicative of the second experience. Well then, okay, now you learn. I think I wish that we had more room in the sexual realm to discover and play. You know, I feel like as kids, we’re often, if we’re lucky, we’re given a lot of room to play. Play means you try something.
Trevor Hoppe (44:56)
Hopefully we do.
Damon L. Jacobs (45:24)
And even if it doesn’t go well, maybe you try it again. And if it doesn’t go well a second time, then maybe you’re like, nah, probably not for me. But at least you’re given permission and space to say, let me see, let me play, let me see what I like, let me see who I like. If I don’t like playing with this guy, if I don’t like playing, then I don’t have to play with him again. But as kids, I feel like we’re given a little more room for that. As adults, we’re so quick to say, nope, nope, nope, keep it moving. And I don’t know if that’s always a beneficial thing.
Trevor Hoppe (45:53)
Mmm. Yeah, that’s fair.
Damon L. Jacobs (45:54)
There may be something to learn and discover the second time around. But I do want to say that if anyone has an experience where they felt unsafe or something where they felt like something was really, really chemically off or something they felt any way physically or psychologically unsafe, then trust that intuition. Because that is your intuition giving you really, really important and valuable information.
Trevor Hoppe (45:58)
I love that.
course.
Amen to that. Yeah, there’s gotta be something to go back for if you’re going back for more. Yeah, definitely. So thinking back on all the experiences you’ve had over the years, like what makes for the best sex for you?
Damon L. Jacobs (46:21)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
So it’s weird to think about that because it’s 35 years. I know, 35 years. It’s like my next book might be 35 years on bottom. Because literally, I mean, this is 4th of July weekend. And this was around the time that I started bottoming in 1989. So yeah, that’s like 35 years. It’s hard to say because so much of what makes seggs good or what we describe, what I describe as good seggs, is state of mind. As I get older,
Trevor Hoppe (46:39)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Damon L. Jacobs (47:03)
As I get more mentally healthy and clearer, I feel like my seggs gets better because my mind gets better. I’m also learning now, just now in my 50s, I’m just beginning to learn and understand these tantric principles I described earlier, ways that our bodies are wired for orgasmic pleasure that are not necessarily about penetrative seggs.
or may not happen through penetrative seggs. And some of those experiences I’m having more of lately, because I’m learning more about Tantra, and I have a partner who is really, really into all that, and really, really into anal orgasms, and really into this idea of exploring erotic touch that can be extremely pleasurable, that’s not necessarily about ejaculation. It could, but it doesn’t always.
So the more I learn about that, and the more I have these experiences of orgasming without ejaculation, the more I’m like, wow, this is some of the best seggs ever. And to have that with someone who I really love and really trust is also phenomenal, because that doesn’t always line up. We don’t always have the greatest sexual chemistry with people we love and trust. Or sometimes we love and trust people whom we have no sexual chemistry with. But when you can have love and trust and sexual chemistry with someone,
Trevor Hoppe (48:14)
Mm -hmm.
Mmm.
you
Damon L. Jacobs (48:25)
That is a really, really powerful thing. So that’s some of the best seggs that I’m having today. I would say in the age of PrEP, there’s so many experiences that have been phenomenally, like spiritually meaningful and beyond the glass ceiling of pleasurable. Again, part of that is my state of mind, but part of that is just having partners who are so also exploring the disinhibition of…
Trevor Hoppe (48:27)
Fireworks.
Damon L. Jacobs (48:51)
seggs at this stage, or maybe they’re in their 20s and they never had it to begin with, because I think that’s a beautiful thing too. I will say like one of the most like peak experiences that I’ve like sled experiences I’ve ever had was last year, not this year, but I went to Bear Dip in Mexico in 2023. And part of that was going on this excursion to this sort of gay island where they let you run around like naked for like four hours.
Trevor Hoppe (49:20)
Yeah.
Damon L. Jacobs (49:20)
And there was this experience that I had with the other travelers. Like, it was this beach, but there was also this cave. And you could go in and explore the cave. And as I’m sure you can guess, you go to Puerto Vallarta and you’ve got a bunch of naked drunk guys, there’s gonna be stuff going on in the cave. I ended up having this experience of being f***ed And three guys…
fing and coming inside me, like each one watching the other and then moving me over to the other one. So it was three consecutive men in a row fing and coming inside my ass. I’d never, some people have had those experiences, it’s a normal Friday. I’d never really had an experience quite like that before. I’d say that far surpasses any porn I’ve ever seen, any fantasy I’ve ever had. It just was phenomenally.
sexually, spiritually meaningful to me. And no matter what else ever happens in my life, whether that ever happens again, whether I can ever figure out how to make that happen again or not, I will cherish that until my very last breath in this body. That again, the sexual, spiritual, emotional, mental freedom in that and the liberation in that is just, yeah, this is I think part of why.
we are spiritual beings in human bodies right now because we’re meant to be spiritual and enjoy this human body in every way, shape, and form possible that’s available for us.
Trevor Hoppe (50:57)
And so do you think that that was like, what is the embodied experience? What makes that? Is it the, do you feel like it was in the moment? You’re like, this is the best. Or is it after the fact that you’re like, this is the best. Like, I’m curious, like, cause sometimes it’s the memory of that experience that’s so erotically thrilling. And sometimes it’s the embodied experience, that moment that’s erotically thrilling. Like what, what in particular about that experience was just like.
You know.
Damon L. Jacobs (51:27)
It was, it was in this, I know what you’re saying because sometimes during an experience it’s not always, there’s still fear. There’s still the fear tape playing in my head. And it’s not until after I look back and say, well, that was amazing. Cause you know, as I, you know, this is my idea of porn, everything fit and nothing st. That’s the point. If I ever did a porn, that would be what it’s called. Everything fit and nothing st. So you can look back on an experience and say, well, that was great. Cause everything fit and nothing s**t. This.
Trevor Hoppe (51:44)
You
Damon L. Jacobs (51:54)
was an experience where I was able to really be in the moment. I wasn’t afraid. I wasn’t afraid of nothing. I wasn’t afraid of s**t, of HIV, of STIs, nothing. So I was able to be present and fully savor that experience. And what I mean by savoring the spiritual part of it, Trevor, is that I believe fundamentally that we are spiritual energy in human bodies, that in our natural form, we are just like this big blob of energy and light. It’s almost like this huge thing of cookie dough.
Trevor Hoppe (51:57)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Damon L. Jacobs (52:24)
But while we’re here in these bodies, it looks like we’re separate cookies. It’s like, okay, you know, you you I have separate bodies, but we’re all part of the same cookie dough. We’re all part of the same energy. And the closest we can ever get to our spiritual form in human bodies is through f***ing The closest we ever get to our natural form of not being separated spiritual energies is through penetration. So when I am being penetrated now at this part of my life, that’s what I am experiencing.
That’s what I am imagining. That’s what I am fully experiencing is like, this spiritual energy is penetrating my body to connect with my spiritual energy and ejaculating as a result of that connection, literally leaving part of himself, his life force within me that I can have, that I can hold, that I can carry, which I did as long as possible. So.
Trevor Hoppe (53:12)
Hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Damon L. Jacobs (53:20)
That is what I mean by pleasure, and that is what I mean by savoring sacred spiritual pleasure through fing. So yes, again, this conversation is very much about honoring and loving and experiencing fing in a really important way and how powerful the mind is in that process. And as we said earlier, expanding on the many, many, many items on the menu that also provide connection even when penetrative seggs is not what’s on the menu.
Trevor Hoppe (53:27)
Mm -hmm
Yeah, I really want to make some cookies now. I am going to love that analogy. That’s that’s fabulous. And I think it’s helpful because when I interviewed bottoms for a research study, a lot of them talked about, yeah, that’s just like that semen was like this almost like embodiment of pleasure. It was like they talked about it that way. And so that resonates with me. It’s like it’s like it’s like liquid pleasure or something. And yeah.
Damon L. Jacobs (53:52)
Yeah!
Yeah!
Yes.
It’s life. It’s literally life inside my body. And for those of us that we grew up and were affected, A, with an A, by HIV, meaning, you know, so much of my life was shaped and formed by terror of dying of AIDS. To be able now to experience semen inside my body, which was tantamount to su*cide when I was growing up in the 80s, now it’s all pleasure.
Trevor Hoppe (54:40)
Mmm.
Damon L. Jacobs (54:40)
That’s meaningful for me. That’s powerful for me. That is sacred for me.
Trevor Hoppe (54:46)
Yeah, I appreciate that because
Damon L. Jacobs (54:47)
So it’s not just about bottoming, it’s really about that spiritual sacred connection.
Trevor Hoppe (54:53)
Absolutely. And I think for so long, the only way we could understand that practice or whatever you want to describe it was through the lens of HIV, that it was only that was the only way we can interpret that is bare backing as, you know, as you say, kind of suicidal or self -destructive behavior. And now we have the ability with PrEP and U equals U to see it more holistically without HIV kind of, you know, as a lens. So thank you for that.
Damon L. Jacobs (55:21)
Right, and it’s almost hard for some of us to imagine seggs without fear. But this is where I get really hopeful, because I see younger gay people not having that experience, which means they’re very lucky. And it also means we did our work. If there can be a generation of people that aren’t having their sexual health sacrificed because they’re terrified of HIV and STIs, that’s good, in my view.
Trevor Hoppe (55:26)
Yeah!
Absolutely. As I sort of we round the corner to thinking about like skills and advice. I like to think about what would you tell those young people that you just mentioned looking for the best sex like play obviously is a key ingredient for you. But other practical tips you would give give young people for like here’s what my advice would be two or three tips whatever for finding that best sex.
Damon L. Jacobs (56:12)
Yes, that the best seggs isn’t because a man is giving you validation, self -esteem, or attention. The best seggs is when we know how beautiful and powerful and strong we are as spiritual beings in human bodies. And then we seek to expand and enhance that through sexual connection with another person or a group of people. That is where the best seggs transpires.
Trevor Hoppe (56:21)
Oof.
Damon L. Jacobs (56:41)
But if you’re using seggs, or you’re using a man, or you’re using his pnis or his cm as a source of validation or attention for who you are, for your self -esteem, that is a lose -lose proposition. Because A, it’s not always gonna work out the way you want it to. And B, even if you do get what you’re looking for, it’s very temporary.
Trevor Hoppe (56:41)
Oof.
Damon L. Jacobs (57:02)
So please consider sexual connection as a means by which we expand and enhance the internal flame of beauty and power and fire and strength that lies within all of us.
Trevor Hoppe (57:17)
that cuts deep. Because a lot of us are turning on those apps looking for that validation. I certainly know I can be I am prone to that behavior as well. And it’s you know, and I’m 41. So it’s not something that gets easier over time. Well, maybe it gets easier over time. But the temptation is always there. And it’s so easy. So I appreciate that insight. It’s like it’s a little bit of a RuPaulism. You can’t love yourself. How the hell you know exactly.
Damon L. Jacobs (57:19)
Yeah.
Trevor Hoppe (57:47)
So that’s… yeah.
Damon L. Jacobs (57:47)
Well, RuPaul is a very spiritual person and quotes many times from a psychological, sociological, spiritual course called the Course in Miracles. So that’s actually, you know, and that has a lot in common with Buddhism and a lot of Eastern philosophies about the true center of loving ourselves, but almost that’s a false language because there really is no such thing as a me or a you. We again are all part of the same energy. We’re all derivative from the same beautiful cookie dough.
Trevor Hoppe (57:56)
Yeah.
cookie dough.
Damon L. Jacobs (58:15)
And so there really isn’t a you or a me. And when we know that and we own that and we express that and connect from that, that is where there is so much beauty. That is where there’s so much light and pleasure available for us via the human body.
Trevor Hoppe (58:30)
fabulous. I always like to end and I feel like you may have you may have already told the story but I sorted lives and untell tales slut for short. What’s the sluttiest thing you ever did?
Damon L. Jacobs (58:41)
Mm -hmm.
you know, I think probably that thing I described in Mexico. I’m sure, I mean, it depends on how you describe slut. You know, I use that term affectionately, partly because when I started talking about using PrEP in 2011, I got called a slut in a bad way so many times. So I really wanted to take that back as something empowering. But I don’t, you know, I mean, I’ve had the wonderful pleasure to be in a lot of group situations in recent years.
Trevor Hoppe (58:55)
me too.
Mm -hmm.
Damon L. Jacobs (59:13)
In New York City, there is a lot of orgies and groups that are really, really kind, where people are mostly kind. And in some of those groups have had opportunities to top and bottom with many, many partners at a time. I’d say, you know, that’s probably for me, pretty slutty, but for other people, that’s a normal Tuesday. So it’s hard to describe.
you know, what I think or what anybody else thinks is slutty. I just think it’s like, okay, for me, as many partners as I can experience erotic connection with in a healthy way that I described, for me is a win -win all around. And sometimes that happens a lot and sometimes there’s faces where it’s not happening a lot.
that I may not be in the mood or, you know, we, New York City, we go through, it’s really, really clear when people have seasonal affective disorder, because there ain’t nobody on those apps or, you know, there’s very few people around. There are sometimes droughts in erotic energy around here. So I don’t know, gosh, sorry. Didn’t mean to end on a bad answer. I just, I don’t, it’s such a relative term, you know, but I have been and am open to.
Trevor Hoppe (1:00:08)
Hmm.
Not a bad answer. Of course. Absolutely.
Damon L. Jacobs (1:00:27)
loving connection with multiple partners in any way that’s healthy and will continue to be, I hope.
Trevor Hoppe (1:00:34)
Fabulous. Well, if people want to learn more about you and the work that you do, where would they find you?
Damon L. Jacobs (1:00:41)
Well, so I have an interview series, including you. It has an air jet. It’s coming up. But I wanted to, you know, clearly I have a lot of opinions, but I also wanted to interview artists, entertainers, HIV historians, researchers, doctors, leaders, people who I just find fascinating. I do these interviews about mental health, sexual health, spiritual health in my bathtub in Brooklyn. And so people can learn more about that at TubTalksWithDamon .com. TubTalks, plural.
Trevor Hoppe (1:01:02)
Yes.
Damon L. Jacobs (1:01:09)
with damon .com, it’s on YouTube. People can also check out my website, damonljacobs .com, don’t forget the L, damonljacobs .com, where I do some of the writing or, you know, when I turned 50, I did a series called The 50 Lessons of 50, the 50 things that I had learned which was helping me to age with more power, purpose, and pleasure, many of which we just talked about. But I’ve wrote down a lot of those things that are on my website at damonljacobs .com.
Trevor Hoppe (1:01:11)
Mm -hmm.
Damon L. Jacobs (1:01:37)
People can read, I’ve written two books, not exactly about what we’re talking about, but about mental, spiritual health and wellness. One is right behind me, it’s called Absolutely Shouldless, about learning to question and challenge the word shoulds that harm us in life. The other is called Rational Relating, the Smart Way to Stay Saint in the Crazy World of Love, based on working with polyamorous couples throughout New York City. And those are all again at damonljacobs .com. And I’m on Facebook and Instagram, and if anybody wants to holler at me, just go ahead.
Trevor Hoppe (1:01:43)
Mm -hmm.
Damon L. Jacobs (1:02:06)
I’m pretty open.
Trevor Hoppe (1:02:08)
Fabulous. Well, thank you so much, Damen I really appreciate it.
Damon L. Jacobs (1:02:12)
Thank you, Trevor. It means a lot to be in this experience with you. I’ve admired you for so many years, so thank you very much.
Trevor Hoppe (1:02:16)
Fabulous.
the feeling is mutual.
Trevor Hoppe (1:02:22)
And that’s our show for today. Thank you for listening. Tune in for the next episode where we talk to Alex Garner of MPact Global, talking about sexual sherpas and gloryholes. It will make sense when you listen. I hope you’ll tune in. It’s a real hoot.
And remember, if you liked what I had to say on today’s episode, reach out and schedule a consultation with me to learn more about my services as a sex coach. I would be happy to help you find the best gay sex. You can find out more on my website, thebestgaysex.net. Hope to hear from you. See you next time.
