S01E11 – “Monogamy” ft. Jersey O’Mari Lavish

OVERVIEW:

Masturbation: the gateway to blindness, hairy palms, and eternal damnation—or so the worst sex ed class you ever sat through might have told you. But in reality, self-pleasure isn’t just a solo act; for some, it’s a whole community. I’m joined by Bryan Bance, a seasoned bator who’s taken his love of self-pleasure to new heights—competing in BateWorld’s Annual Great Bate Off and finding a brotherhood in the world of bating. We talk about the stigma around masturbation, the rise of bate culture, and how jerking off can be a radical act of self-love, confidence, and even connection with others. If you’ve ever edged a little too long and wondered, is this a sport?, this episode is for you.

TRANSCRIPT:

Trevor Hoppe (00:09)
Hey, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Trevor Hoppe. Riddle me this, what makes you go blind? Grow hair on your palms and maybe even ruin your chance of having kids? Well, if you said masturbation, congratulations. You just might be the recipient of a really crappy American sex education. For literally centuries, American moral reformers have been doing the most

to try to keep young men and boys from touching themselves. Sylvester Graham, he invented the Graham cracker for exactly the same reason that John Harvey Kellogg invented corn flakes, to try to keep young boys from masturbating. It’s true, look it up. But as today’s guest reminds us, masturbation isn’t wasteful and it’s definitely not self-destructive. In the world of bating

Ironically, it can actually be a source of community. Bryan Bance has taken his love of self-pleasure to new heights as a competitor in season three of Bate World’s Annual Great Bate Off And I love saying that, it just makes me think of a really spicy British baking competition. But in the world of bating, Bryan didn’t just find pleasure, although of course, plenty of that was to be found. He also found

sustained real meaningful connection with other men and developed a certain kind of self-confidence about his own body. And he also really just learned to appreciate the male body and all of its messy, uninhibited glory. Let’s listen in.

Trevor Hoppe (01:51)
Bryan Bance welcome to the Best Gay Sex podcast. I’m so good. I’m so thrilled to see you again. We met over, I think, almost 20 years ago first, which is a number that is not logical to the brain, but is true.

Bryan Bance (01:55)
How are ya?

UGH!

No.

No.

Trevor Hoppe (02:08)
You were living then in San Francisco and tell folks a little bit about your sort of growing up, like where situate us back there in the Bay Area.

Bryan Bance (02:16)
Yeah, so I am Bay Area born and raised. I kind of spent my time up and down the peninsula I like to share. I’m originally from Redwood City. That’s where I grew up. I went to college in San Jose, so in the South Bay. And then as soon as I finished that, I ended up in San Francisco, where I lived for about eight to 10 years. That’s where I met my now husband. And after

Growing up there, we made our way across the country and have been living in New York, mostly Brooklyn, since 2016. So we are coming up on nine, almost 10 years, I think that’s when we can start to claim that we are New Yorkers. Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (02:54)
Native New Yorkers, right? Exactly.

totally. What’s New York been for you? Like compared to San Francisco, how do you feel they’re different?

Bryan Bance (03:02)
I mean, I think the obvious thing is just like the sheer size of New York, right? Like I think New York compared to San Francisco, like New York obviously has the reputation of being like the city, right? And I think as someone who grew up outside of San Francisco for a long time, San Francisco felt like the city and that’s what we called it. But now that I’ve been here in New York, just the sheer scale and the sheer size of people feels just immensely different. And by comparison, San Francisco,

feels like a small town. And I would say even more specifically so, like the microcosm of the Castro being the gaberhood, it got to a point where it felt like I was seeing the same people over and over, which can feel like a good thing on one hand, but also can get to a place where it feels monotonous too. So New York in general just exists on a very, very different scale than San Francisco.

Trevor Hoppe (03:58)
100%. Like I used to love walking around San Francisco, literally like you could walk around the entire peninsula almost in a day and just have a nice, a nice little day of it. But in New York City, obviously there was no walking around Manhattan. Like you would be dead. Yeah, totally. So what is your, what is your day job look like?

Bryan Bance (04:04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

No. No. No. No.

Yeah, so I’m in this kind of interesting transition right now. So I’m currently a graduate student. I am back in school. I’m getting my master’s in social work. It’s an interesting kind of circle back to something I had thought about exploring when I was younger, but I ended up falling into a very different career path. I was a, you know, retail fashion executive, which I hate even using that term, but I was in that field for about 15 years.

before getting sick of the capitalism of it all is what I like to say. And so I am, literally in the middle of my graduate program. And I really seek this path because I ultimately want to become a, you know, queer affirming therapist in the end. think there’s even in a big city like New York, there is still such a huge need for queer affirming therapists and more specifically, you know.

therapists who understand and talk about sexuality, being kink affirming, being gender affirming. And that’s one where I have a lot of curiosity and interest and hopefully more knowledge. But again, I feel like there’s a big need for it as well. And so that’s kind of what most of my days are filled with is being back in school. And then aside from that, I do dabble in some, you know, online content creation as well.

really kind of focus in on the kind of bator side of things, if you will. I’ve definitely kind of built up a reputation both online and here in New York as being part of the bator community. And it’s a place where I, you know, it really kind of fits in with what I like to do sexually, but it’s also been a place where I’ve been able to build a lot of community and friendships as well.

Trevor Hoppe (05:57)
Yeah, this concept of bating has become, I don’t know, it’s blown up, I feel like overnight. I’m sure it’s always been there, but it’s having a moment. What is, how would you define bating?

Bryan Bance (06:03)
Mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

I mean, it’s really hard because as someone who’s been, you know, involved with it more and more over the past few years, it really has so many different types of people within it. And within bating, there’s so many kind of sub genres, if you will. I think that language is something that’s really important and we may talk about a little bit later, but having this definition of, you know, a side or someone who enjoys non-penetrative sex is…

is kind of, think, what is behind this moment of where you’re actually talking about it. But we’ve all been jerking off and masturbating for a very long time. And it’s just become this thing that people are finally comfortable in being able to use language around it. But it’s interesting as we talk about it having this moment. Again, it has been around for such a long time. And one of the big…

Trevor Hoppe (06:46)
Yeah.

Bryan Bance (07:00)
things here in New York specifically for the bator community is this party called New York Jacks. And I mention it because it’s basically a twice a week, you know, party centered around masturbation. They kind of shy away from any sort of penetrative sex, but they in the month of February are about to celebrate 45 years of having this party. And yeah, yeah. And one amazing that a party can last that long, right? But two,

Trevor Hoppe (07:22)
Wow.

Bryan Bance (07:28)
If you think back as to when that started, that takes you back into the mid-80s. And a lot of these parties were born out of the necessity and what was going on with the HIV and AIDS epidemic. And we as queer people were trying to figure out what were ways to have safer sex with each other without the fear of getting sick. And that is really where New York Jerks, New York Jerks, New York Jacks emerged as

an opportunity for people to connect sexually again without the fear of, you know, contracting HIV during that timeframe. And so it was born out of this necessity.

Trevor Hoppe (08:03)
Yeah.

was just talking to Sister T’Aint A Virgin – I don’t know if you remember her from San Francisco days. I love her so much. Yes. And so she was talking about voyeurism in kind of a similar way that it kind of is a way to explore, especially in the face of epidemics like AIDS in a safe way. So I appreciate that kind of history, locating that. Obviously a lot’s changed since then. What does it take to be a bator?

Bryan Bance (08:09)
Mm. Mm-hmm, I do, I do.

huh.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I think it’s about being able to get in touch with yourself, right? I think, you know, there’s been a lot, there’s a lot of shame around sex in general. And I think that masturbation is something that’s been viewed as something that can be shameful. And it comes from, you know, yes, a very kind of puritanical and Victorian era thought. But I think a lot of that shame is also rooted in, you know, a heteronormative mentality where any type of sex that isn’t like

couldn’t possibly result in reproducing is sinful or shameful. And so I think to be a masturbator is to like, one kind of reclaim that shame and understand that taking your own pleasure in your hands quite literally is really powerful. And so I do think that that was kind of the first step of being a masturbator is like reclaiming and saying like, I’m going to have my own pleasure. I also think about that.

in the context of women too, and women being able to take their own pleasure in their own hands as well. This isn’t just a men only thing, but so reclaiming that power is really, important. And what I discovered, especially in the past few years, as I’ve kind of built up this friend circle of bators is that a lot of people may have the misconception that bating is a solo activity. And yes, it is something you can do on your own, but

I use that word community, like not lightly because there is a big community of people who like to share their masturbation with each other. And whether that’s in an exhibitionist, voyeuristic way, whether it’s online and video chat rooms, or it’s, you know, going to these parties like New York Jacks. And there’s been a few others that have cropped up in New York City as well and across the country. It is a place where people are able to come together. No pun intended.

and enjoy themselves. And I think, you know, while I’m not part of like the leather community or like the pop play community, like I would have to imagine that they also feel that camaraderie and, you know, brotherhood, if you want to use that language, that sibling hood, if you’d of just finding people that want to explore their sexuality in a similar way to you. So yes, it’s about being in touch with yourself, but I’ve also found that it is about, you know,

being able to find others and enjoy the company of others as well.

Trevor Hoppe (10:52)
Do you think there were early experiences that set you on this path?

Bryan Bance (10:56)
Yeah, I think for me specifically, and I think this ties to both my discovery of masturbation but also sex in general, is I’ve come to found that I had a pretty unique and open kind of discovery of sexuality. was a very curious kid and I did a lot of reading as when I was younger and as it relates specifically to sex, or sorry, to masturbation.

stumbled upon this website which still exists to this day it’s called Jack in World and Jack in World although it hasn’t probably been updated in over 20 years someone is maintaining the domain which is fantastic but Jack in World presented masturbation as something that was one so normal and two something that

didn’t have it did not need to have any sort of shame attached to it either. And it was presented in a very like matter of fact and educational way in terms of like, here’s how people can do it. And on top of that, here’s a bunch of different ways you can explore your masturbation. And you know, with everything from like, here are different like techniques being like different hand grips you could use to like enjoy your masturbation. Here’s different types of lubrications you can use and like,

You have to think like I was discovering this as like a teenager when I was like 13, 14 years old. And like, I didn’t have the ability to like go to an adult store and like buy lubrication. I had to use whatever I could. So it was like, we had baby oil underneath the bathroom sink. We had cooking oil in the kitchen and Jack and world opened my eyes to be like, you can use those as a new way to discover, you know, how to masturbate with yourself. but I really do think that.

It was a site like Jack and World that just really normalized masturbation as something that so many people do. you know, I think unfortunately, like I was saying before, because we’re in this heteronormative and sometimes conservative values around sex, a lot of people have historically been taught that masturbation is sinful. there were so many myths that were spread around of like, you’re gonna get hairy palms, you’re gonna go blind. Yeah, you’re going to like spend all your semen and not be able to get.

Trevor Hoppe (13:03)
gonna go blind.

Bryan Bance (13:08)
someone pregnant later on if you masturbate too much. All of these myths have been shared for such a long time, but I’m very lucky that I discovered Jack and World at an early age and a lot of those myths were dispelled for me. And so yeah, that was really kind of the point of Jack and World and really set me on that path.

Trevor Hoppe (13:28)
That’s amazing. I love the idea that something as simple as masturbation, not simple, but not even innocuous. It’s just this kind of sexuality that we think is entry level. I don’t know. It’s like the first thing you do usually. It’s the first kind of sexual experience you have, most people. And yet it can be so disruptive still, promoting and normalizing masturbation can be so disruptive because of that stigma.

Bryan Bance (13:38)
Mmmmm, mmmm.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (13:54)
That is still there, isn’t that wild?

Bryan Bance (13:56)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it’s like I just read a book. I’m looking over at my bookshelf because it’s right here. It’s by an author, Dr. Eric Sprinkle, and it’s called DIY, the wonderfully weird history and science of masturbation. And he really kind of dives into the full history of, you know, obviously kind of the Victorian era, kind of conservative values that came in. But then also what was the…

Trevor Hoppe (14:16)
Hmm?

Bryan Bance (14:20)
wrong science at the time about, again, what masturbation could do. you know, it talks about Dr. Kellogg of cereal fame, who’s one of the proponents that wanted people to stop masturbating for various reasons. And so

Trevor Hoppe (14:28)
Yes!

Graham

crackers, same thing with graham crackers. People think it’s just a delicious snack. No, that was supposed to be like a bland food that was going to make young boys not want to touch themselves.

Bryan Bance (14:36)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mm-hmm,

mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And so yeah, it’s just, again, you know, the misinformation that has been spread around masturbation, and sex in general, but I specifically masturbation is one that’s been targeted so much. And I think that it’s unfortunate if people don’t undo that level of shame around it because, you know, to get what you were saying about like, masturbation is such like an entry level quote unquote thing about sexuality, but for me,

As I become a stronger or more associated with bating and really involved it in my sexual practice, I do think that it’s made me a better lover with other people. Like, there’s no doubt that there’s a connection between being in tune and in touch with my own body and being able to be, yeah, be a better lover with other people.

Trevor Hoppe (15:32)
Well, I was just going to say, is there a time you can think of that where you like were actively aware you were like, wow, I’m doing something here with my partner. And this is something that I learned from this practice.

Bryan Bance (15:42)
Yeah, I mean, think the first and foremost thing, and I remember learning about this on Jackin World, is the experience of edging. They described it as like, you know, a stop and go technique, but being able to be in control of your body and realize, you know, when am I getting close to orgasm, getting close to ejaculation and being able to ease off on it and kind of pull back for a moment so that you don’t go over the brink too soon. I think a lot of people when they’re having sex with other people,

that is a common concern that they have is how can I last longer? Especially if they’re being the one who’s penetrating or is getting ahead or whatever it may be. And so I can definitely link my sexual acts with other people and being able to last a lot longer because I did practice stop and go techniques from Jackin World. I did learn to edge. And so I know that when I’m with people, if I’m getting close,

I either need to kind of stop and pull back for a little bit, I can breathe, and then I can continue. And so, again, that’s one example of being able in tune with my own body through solo sex that has made me a better partner for people.

Trevor Hoppe (16:50)
Yeah, I appreciate that reframing of edging a little bit because when I first heard that term and came to awareness of it, it sounded like, I don’t know, like, wow, you have a lot of time on your hands that you’re spending all day doing this thing. And then I think you’re right that for a lot of people, there’s all this anxiety that a lot of men have about coming too fast. It’s just a reality of our physical anatomy that we…

Bryan Bance (17:11)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (17:15)
Unless we know how to control it, we don’t, are not able to. And so I appreciate that the edging can be, and maybe if it had a different word for it, I don’t know, for some reason, the edging has always rubbed me the wrong way. No, no, no pun intended, but, but yes, it can help you control your orgasm. Period.

Bryan Bance (17:22)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And at the end of the

day, also makes your orgasms that more intense. like, you some people love to do that as well as a sexual activity. It’s be edged by someone else and, you know, it just makes your orgasm that much more delicious.

Trevor Hoppe (17:49)
Yeah, definitely. And it takes a certain intuition to kind of understand someone else’s body in that way to be able to read where is that brink and how do you stop in time to not go over that point. Do have any tips for that?

Bryan Bance (17:55)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm

I mean, I think, you know, it’s a practice makes perfect thing, right? I think a lot of people were so trained to like, that sex, the end of sex is orgasm. And so I think first and foremost, you need to reframe that like, orgasm isn’t necessarily the end goal. And if you kind of pull yourself away from that framework, I think that opens you up to realize that like, the journey could be just as enjoyable, or if not more enjoyable than the end point.

I just think we’re also trained to think that we have to orgasm at the end of sex that it can get us in our heads of like, when we get there quicker, because if I don’t, like, is there something wrong or what have you? So just remove orgasm and ejaculation from being the end goal can really help people kind of get into that mindset. And here’s the thing, if you mess up and you accidentally come when you were trying to orgasm, guess what? You can do it again.

The next day, if you’re lucky enough, maybe you can do it in 15 minutes from then, but like, it’s not the end all be all if you mess up once and you have the freedom and your body will allow you to do it and practice it again very shortly afterwards.

Trevor Hoppe (19:11)
Amen to that. I remember I was walking in Puerto Vallarta with a friend who had been to a tantric workshop and he ran into the leader of this workshop who was this beautiful, of course, just this beautiful man. And he grabbed, they were having a conversation about what it meant and how to practice this thing and he grabbed my friend’s junk and he was like, keep your sexual energy in here. And his challenge was to not orgasm basically to hold it back. And

Bryan Bance (19:16)
Mmm. Hmm.

huh.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.

Trevor Hoppe (19:40)
I still think about that moment, even though I was not the one experiencing that interaction. It was profound in the sense that what would it mean to recenter male sexuality away from the orgasm? It’s a, it’s not an easy feat because every time we turn on television, when we see sex, it’s over when the man comes and that’s.

Bryan Bance (19:50)
Mm-hmm.

And it happens in 30 seconds on TV. Like, you know what I mean? Like, exactly. it’s, think that, you know, again, for female identifying people or people who don’t have penises, like, orgasm is not always the end result for them. And sometimes it’s not possible for them to achieve that with a partner. And so, you know, again, it could help people who are not only in male-male relationships to, again, remove orgasm as…

Trevor Hoppe (20:01)
It’s…

Bryan Bance (20:24)
the end goal and realize there’s a lot more pleasure to be found on that journey.

Trevor Hoppe (20:28)
I think women have understood this a lot longer because I think most women will tell you in heterosexual sex that just like it is not common to have a vaginal orgasm or maybe even possible for most or many women. And so the reality is if you want to have an orgasm, it’s not going to be that time when you’re having penetrative sex unless there’s clitoral stimulation or other things happening.

Bryan Bance (20:31)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Yep. Yep.

Trevor Hoppe (20:56)
I guess men are a little late to this party, but it’s nice to be reminded of the pleasure that can come from that for sure. Do you think there was, like in this world you’re in now where you’re obviously having other kinds of sex as well as bating, like what?

Bryan Bance (21:04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (21:19)
What is the difference between those two kinds of sexual interactions? Do you seek out casual sex that’s not with your husband, that’s not bating?

Bryan Bance (21:28)
Yeah, I I think that, you for me, we were talking about like the definition of a side, like I don’t personally identify as a side because I do enjoy and have and engage in penetrative sex. And, you know, specifically you’re mentioning, you know, my husband, like he’s not in that bating world and that is perfectly fine because him and I have plenty of great sex, penetrative sex and otherwise with each other.

I think for me, the distinction between seeking out the masturbatory experience versus the experience of penetrative sex is really kind of about different types of connections. I think that because there’s so many different subsets of bettors, there’s kind of a lot of different ways you connect with people. And some of it is about not connecting with them in the ways that you would expect in penetrative sex. And so when I think about if I’m jerking off with someone,

Sometimes it’s all about showing off for each other and there isn’t a lot of physical connection and physical stimulation between the two of us. It’s more about being in the room with someone, showing off for each other. Sometimes there’s pornography involved and you might just be watching that together. And so it opens up these different ways of being able to find connection even if it isn’t physical versus…

Obviously, if you’re having penetrative sex, that is very physical and you are touching someone and you are having a lot more kind of this physical proximity and closeness with one another. And so I think that’s one of the ways that might be different between penetrative and in bator sex. I think on top of it too, the goal of bator being kind of in a bait situation might be to really kind of savor that edging that we were talking about and really kind of

get each other to that kind of point of almost coming and then pulling back and really kind of playing with that for a very long time. You know, I think the reality is that penetrative sex is that while we may hear about people who want to get fucked for hours on end, like a lot of people are also very happy to like spend 20 to 30 minutes in that type of way and like then that’s all their body can handle. And so I do think that there’s a duration difference and

Mindset that might happen between know, bare sex and penetrative sex if that makes sense

Trevor Hoppe (23:48)
Yeah, definitely. What about gooning? Where does gooning fit into all this?

Bryan Bance (23:54)
Yeah, mean, so I feel like that in particular has gotten probably the most publicity as I’ve seen more more like think pieces and articles. And so like, I think first and foremost, like, gooning for those who may not be familiar with it is this idea of like, getting so kind of like deep into your masturbation that it becomes this almost like hypnotic sense of mind and state of mind.

Yeah, exactly. And so like, there’s a lot of people who kind of, you know, might associate with like, being like dumb on your penis. And like, you just get to this point where like, you become one with your with your your deck, basically, it’s kind of a mentality. And yes, it involves a lot of people getting as they kind of go into this mentality, like a lot of like tongue being out and drooling. And I think

Not everyone, think first and foremost, there’s like a subset within the bator community that identifies as Gooners and not everyone who’s a bator is a Gooner. I think that people who get into that kind of, identifies Gooners, I think that they are kind of really taking a lot of freedom too. Like we were talking about reclaiming of like this shame that might be associated with masturbating. I think Gooners are kind of taking that reclamation to.

an extreme point of like, I’m going to like be so into my masturbation that like I’m going to look as like, free and stupid as possible. You know what I mean? Like, there’s some people that almost associated with like, you’re kind of like your bait or clowns in some sort of way. it, I think an outsider looking in might look at it and say like, it feels

performative to some people and who’s to say, like maybe there are some people that are performing in that type of way, but I still think that even if they’re performing, they’re doing it in a way that’s like freeing and trying to say like, I don’t care if I look stupid and I’m masturbating, like I love it anyway. Like, so I think that there is a kind of a freedom that comes along with people that associate with that kind of gooner mentality.

Trevor Hoppe (26:00)
Yeah, I the impulse, I share that impulse a little bit to be like, is that real? What is real? You just have to step back. We are always performing. Even if we’re in our own rooms, we have our own little security watch who’s like, oh, you don’t wanna do that. You wanna look at the wrong things. You don’t wanna get turned on in the wrong way or experience pleasure in the wrong way. So I get that there is always a performative aspect to it.

Bryan Bance (26:06)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Hey, man. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (26:28)
It looks great. Like it look I envy it like I would love to be in such a state of Zen’d out bliss I guess what I’m curious about with with both bating and gooning is how masculinity kind of figures into all of it because it feels very

Bryan Bance (26:31)
Hmm?

Mm-hmm.

Mm. Mm,

Trevor Hoppe (26:48)
bro-y and I like

Bryan Bance (26:49)
mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (26:50)
part of that but also as a gay man who was historically aggrieved by bros I it feels challenging so but maybe that’s the point I don’t know

Bryan Bance (26:56)
Hmm.

Yeah, I mean, I’ve thought about this too. And like, yes, within the bator community, there’s a lot of, you know, language and vocabulary that comes along with it. And I think you the nail on the head, like, there is this like, usage, particularly of the word bro, right? Like, I, people within the community call each other like, yeah, it’s my bator bro, or hey, bro, let’s jerk off together. And it does seem, you know, very like masculine male centric. That being said,

part of it I think is that that’s, I guess the language is so important and that’s just kind of part of like being part of the community. But that being said, I have met some very, very fem presenting and feminine, know, bators in the community that kind of slip into that language because it’s just kind of part of what’s expected in some ways. And so I don’t know if I have the exact answer to it, but like, I do think that it might be kind of,

again, kind of reclaiming some of the shame of, you know, masturbation being a shameful activity and because it’s not having sex with a woman and being procreative, like, is it less of a man thing to do? Like, I’ve seen a lot of, you know, things on social media, like from these like alpha male type of guys that say like, men don’t masturbate, stop masturbating. If you need to come, you know, you come with a woman kind of situation. And so

I do think that there is this reclamation of like, no, like masturbation can be a masculine thing. and, and just because you’re not having sex with a woman for the purposes of procreating doesn’t make it any less of a valid form of sexual expression. I think the other interesting thing too, within the bator community is that I would venture to say that especially like jerk off parties.

There’s probably a higher penetration or percentage, if you will, of men who may not solely identify as gay. I think that Badoff parties create a community and create a space that might be safe for men who are maybe, you know, again, unsure of their sexuality.

or don’t want to or are not able to come out for various reasons. If you want to use the term DL, that’s okay. And there might be also men who are straight identifying. I’ve definitely encountered quite a few at jerk-off parties. And so I don’t know how that plays into the masculinity piece of it as well, but I think on the flip side of this being non-penetrative sex, I think that creates some freedom for men in particular to explore.

sexuality with other men without fear of it being quote unquote gay. And I just find that to be very interesting. And again, I don’t have like numbers or statistics of other sex parties, but I just, in my experience, I’ve encountered a lot more men who don’t identify as gay enjoying masturbation parties specifically. And so that’s like an interesting thing to throw in there as well of what bating can mean to people.

Trevor Hoppe (30:03)
Yeah, I mean, I guess it’s not like the way that straight men or gay men are gonna heal our wounds together, but there is something appealing about the idea of finding a safe, yet sexual space for straight and gay men to be in the same room together. That’s kind of mind-blowing.

Bryan Bance (30:14)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, it’s, you know, I think you hear, or at least I’ve heard of stories of like, you know, when we’re all exploring our sexuality as, you know, teenagers of like, you know, two dudes may have jerked off together and just kind of explored that as a, you know, something when they were 15, 16 years old, but a lot of time then shame comes along with that. And so I think that…

Again, jerk off party isn’t even like a website like BateWorld is a place where I do see both bisexual identifying men, but also straight identifying men enjoying sharing their masturbation with other men. And I just think that that is yet another kind of place that people can kind of explore and reclaim their sexuality that was once thought of as shameful. And I just don’t think I see that level of exploration of non-gay men in other, you know.

sexual communities as much as I see it in the bator world.

Trevor Hoppe (31:16)
I actually, I hear you 100 % and I think that resonates with things I’ve seen as well. And so it’s just fascinating to think about. I am all for, especially as someone who’s just lived life as a little queeny kind of young boy, my relationship to straight men is problematic. I have a long history of feeling.

Bryan Bance (31:30)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (31:37)
It’s very hard for me to open up and feel vulnerable with a straight man given all the things that have happened. And it’s not rational, right? It’s not specific to a specific person. It’s just this, it’s trauma, right? And I just, I, for a moment, I just want to love and celebrate the idea of having masturbation parties to bridge that divide. So if you out there listening, I think it would be great to have more of those opportunities. What?

Bryan Bance (31:47)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (32:03)
I’m also on kind of a mission to find the good things about masculinity because it’s been a tough subject. I think my whole life, this disidentification I have with masculine, I’m trying now in my forties to embrace. What does it mean to be a man? To be a man, right? Even just saying that feels like, because you know, you’re just trained that men are do so many bad things and they do, but what about masculinity do you celebrate?

Bryan Bance (32:10)
Mm. Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting. When I have the same sort of reaction when I think about straight men, I think about even my time in corporate America, which is highly patriarchal and the way that it’s structured. And I think about moments where I felt uncomfortable were definitely in places where men ruled, were the leaders in those types of spaces and feeling very uncomfortable in it.

I think maybe similar to you and probably a lot of other gay men, my lack of masculinity was always questioned at a very early age. I remember when I was five or six years old, I used to, and this is showing my age of generation, I used to play as, do you remember Carmen Sandiego? Yeah, I mean, retrospect, fabulous, right? I didn’t understand why, but like.

Trevor Hoppe (33:17)
yes, that red jacket and that hat, yes.

Bryan Bance (33:23)
I used to like pretend to be her and like that was kind of like my like role play when I was like that age. And so like, I feel like I do have a very, really kind of like fraught relationship with masculinity. And, you know, I think for me, it’s, I’ve been trying to actually figure out how to actually make, it’s less about kind of like embracing the masculinity side and how can I make sure that.

The feminine energy is also just as respected as masculinity. Like I actually have a tattoo on my arm that says, let boys be feminine. And I think for me, that’s not only like, yes, let them express themselves as feminine if that’s the way that they are. But I think it is about what we associate with feminine energy. And that is about, you know, caring for other people, being more emotional with one another.

And so I think that in general, if we as a society embraced femininity and all that encompasses, I think the world would be a much different and better place in my opinion.

Trevor Hoppe (34:25)
I agree, but I don’t think we’re going to get to the promised land unless we also reconfigure masculinity. that’s, I used to be in the same place where I thought, well, we just need to embrace femininity more. And I think we obviously do. There’s no question. But I also just think there’s this elephant in the room that we that’s, and that’s why I think straight men, I’m getting way off topic, but that’s why I straight men are, are leaving like democratic spaces and other things because there’s been this

Bryan Bance (34:31)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Trevor Hoppe (34:53)
And I hate to say it’s, don’t want to say that we’re man haters from like a feminist perspective or whatever, but like there is this kind of refusal to look at masculinity in a positive light that I think can be challenging. And that’s what I think I see in this bate — And I bring it up because I see it in this bating world a little bit that there is something going on that’s kind of bro-y kind of masculine in its tenor, but it doesn’t feel violent or

Bryan Bance (35:04)
Mmm.

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (35:21)
It doesn’t have those negative attributes. And maybe I just don’t see those attributes, but it just doesn’t feel that way to me. I don’t know. Do you see any of that toxic stuff creep in there?

Bryan Bance (35:23)
Hmm.

Thanks.

You know, I don’t. I think it does come down to the fact of, one, again, we’re kind of reclaiming lot of tropes that maybe have been hateful against us. I think a big thing of, you see a lot of bears do, is the flexing kind of thing. It’s a big kind of pose that we do. And again, I feel like that’s a bit of us reclaiming this idea of what it is expected to be a man. What a masculine, muscular man jerk off in a room with a bunch of other dudes.

Trevor Hoppe (35:46)
yeah.

Bryan Bance (35:59)
you maybe wouldn’t expect that of when you think of masculinity. Yes, you think of being a bro, but what do bros do? We’re gonna go out and get drunk and find a bunch of bitches. You know what I mean? So like, right? And sort of like flip that on its head and it’s like, no, I’m actually going to be really, if you think about it, jerking off with someone else, you’re putting yourself in a very vulnerable position as any type of sex with someone else is, but I think.

Trevor Hoppe (36:10)
some chicks, yeah!

Bryan Bance (36:25)
you know, masturbation specifically, you’re putting yourself, being very vulnerable with someone else. And so I think it is taking those tropes or those stereotypical things and pulling it into a sexual space like masturbation does that really, I think, is a way to make us more vulnerable. And so, yeah, I can’t really recall any moments where like,

I left a bait space in particular that was like, that felt like toxic masculinity. Yeah, despite all the bro talk and that type of thing, does feel very, it still feels very queer in many ways.

Trevor Hoppe (36:57)
Yeah.

Yeah, it’s got that kind of fraternity aspect to it and the like Greek way that it’s like.

Bryan Bance (37:10)
Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (37:10)
fraternal

orders or whatever, brotherhood, those words you mentioned earlier that can be quite positive. So I’m just here to reclaim some of that, not necessarily reclaim, but to reimagine masculinity in this positive way and to celebrate that and femininity, right? We have to do both and all the space in between. anyways, I appreciate you letting me go down that little rabbit hole, because it’s been my thing I’ve been thinking about a lot.

Bryan Bance (37:12)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Anytime.

Trevor Hoppe (37:39)
If someone out there wants to get into bating, what would you tell them to do?

Bryan Bance (37:45)
I would say first and foremost, the internet is your friend and I think that there’s a fantastic social media site that is centered around masturbation and that is BaitWorld. BaitWorld has been around, they’re celebrating 15 years this year and it is a place where you can create your own kind of social, it’s like a social media site, so you can create a profile, you can put pictures up.

You can find people who are located close to you. If you’re someone who doesn’t want to take that step of meeting with someone in person, can, you know, they have a very thriving video chat room. That’s a place where I might spend some frequent time myself as an exhibitionist. It’s definitely something that tickles my fancy, but I think that Baitworld, while I’ll admit the website interface could use maybe some modernization, let’s just say that.

It is still, I think, the go-to place where people who identify as bators or enjoy masturbation seek out. And a lot of people, you know, find friends and find their community through BaitWorld. You can also easily on BaitWorld find local jerk-off clubs. Lots of cities nowadays have cropped up with these types of parties. You know, obviously I mentioned New York.

There’s some thriving ones in places like, you know, Denver, Seattle, Chicago, San Francisco, interestingly enough, I think one of them is finally kind of resurging. There was a longstanding SFJex that closed down, I think, pre-pandemic and a different group is kind of picking up the mantle. But, you know, I know it can be super intimidating to go to any type of sex party, but again, in my experience as someone who’s been to both

bait-centered sex parties, well as more quote unquote traditional sex parties where penetration happens, you can kind of make it what you want and that you are, I’ve never felt pressured to do anything I didn’t want to at a bait party. And so I would encourage people to take that leap of faith and not to be afraid to go to a bait party because…

Every time that I go to New York Jax, I leave with a new connection. And that has grown to now become, you know, a group of people that I consider friends and that, yes, we jerk off together, but we also hang out, get lunch, do drinks and that type of thing. And it really has built up this community. And I think that for any sexual kink or fetish, is something that we all seek out as other people who can help validate and help us explore, explore it in a safe way.

Trevor Hoppe (40:21)
I’ll just ask one more question about that because I hear this from a lot of guys in many different ways, but a lot of guys have anxiety about size because there’s just so much, you know, in porn it’s a diskewed perspective on what the male anatomy looks like. What would you tell someone who is anxious about that?

Bryan Bance (40:25)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm. Mmm.

I have seen all different shapes and sizes of not just like dick size, but also just men in general. again, as someone who’s spent time in both types of spaces, I do find that the bait world, and I’d say that in general, not just baitworld.com, but the bating world is much more inclusive in terms of body types, in terms of age. Again, New York Jacks has been around for 45 years.

there are some men that have probably been going for all 45 years who still show up. And so I have really kind of seen the gamut of people at this party. And because it is kind of a choose your own adventure of like whether you’re going to like be heavily involved in touching other people or maybe you’re just gonna sit back and kind of jerk off on your own. I have never seen anyone be rejected because of the size of their dick, the size of their body.

or any of that type of thing. I do feel like it is a very inclusive community and space in general.

Trevor Hoppe (41:38)
Yeah, and I’ll just add one more thing to that, which I helped me be comfortable with my own body and the way it is, going to a Korean spa. I know that sounds wild, but a space where men are all naked and it’s not sexual to me. I don’t go there seeking sexual entertainment or enjoyment, but I do get to see all the ways that men’s bodies can look. And it made me just appreciate my own body so much more.

Bryan Bance (41:48)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Yeah, I love that. It makes me think of San Francisco, Kabuki, not at a Korean spot, it’s more Japanese, but Kabuki was a place where like, yeah, the idea of just, you know, social nudity and sexuality, you know, sex not having to be the end result of it, I think really does normalize just how different our bodies can be. And that’s a wonderful and beautiful thing.

Trevor Hoppe (42:07)
is.

Yes.

Yes.

It’s so validating and I know that word is overused, but it’s true. It really can assuage you of a lot of those fears and anxieties you have about your own body because it’s just a body. it’s, we are not models, most of us. And that’s not just not okay. It’s like good, like.

Bryan Bance (42:36)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (42:45)
we should celebrate those differences. Anyways, I’ll hop off my soapbox there, but I just, appreciate that bating those parties might be another opportunity to get comfortable with your own body, but it’s hard in America. Ugh.

Bryan Bance (42:45)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

my God. It’s so difficult

and like the prevalence of like social media and how we present our sexuality on social media again as someone who does that himself. Like I think for me, like I’m not a guy who has, you know, a built body by any means. I’ve never had a six pack. I don’t think I ever will. And I think for me, part of the reason why I enjoy

you know, showing off and having this online alt world that I live in is that I wanted to be able to like reclaim, again, I’m using this word a lot, but like reclaiming my own body and being comfortable with it and realizing that like, I don’t have to like hide it, even though it’s been so ingrained, especially in queer gay men that like, this is the archetype, how you have to look like, you have to be, you know, at one point it was smooth, slim, like, you know, that type of, you know.

Body type was what I grew up seeing as from a sexual perspective, XY Magazine, Queer as Folk, right? Like was so ingrained for a long time that to be able to like show off that I have a different body type than that is very validating and very, you know, sexy as well. And so it is difficult, but I think that once you get to a point where you feel comfortable, like at least for me, it’s like I will never kind of like.

go back to feeling ashamed about my body.

Trevor Hoppe (44:18)
Amen to that. And that is

a tough mountain to climb. So I applaud you for getting to that point because it’s really hard. And it’s not just for gay people. Growing up, I remember family members saying a lot of someone was shirtless on the beach or something who didn’t have a perfect life. It’s like, no one wants to see that. Just those little, we might call them microaggressions, but just those normative statements about what a body should look. And the funny thing is, that it’s not like those family members…

Bryan Bance (44:22)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Hoppe (44:44)
They had the same, they looked the same. It’s like, and so you know they’re just projecting their own feelings about their own body, but it has this negative effect on everyone else. So I appreciate you celebrating what a body looks like, what a fabulous, lovely male body cannon does look like, because that’s brave in this world. And I don’t know, I’m applauding of that. So thank you.

Bryan Bance (44:45)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

know you’re saying like being shirtless to take me back to like, I was the kid that like left his shirt on the beach or the pool and that type situation. And so I think it’s wild that I at this point, feel comfortable with showing the entirety of my body, my whole naked body on online. I came to that realization last year that was like, wow, like you have come a long way. And yeah, I appreciate you saying that you’re proud of I’m proud of myself too, if I’m being honest.

Trevor Hoppe (45:35)
Good, you should be.

I was that same kid and like, I remember a couple, I’ve come a long way in recent years and I remember taking my shirt off with my family at the beach, right, like such a non-event event, but, and my little niece being like, why are you naked? And it was just a funny moment, cause you know, to her that was naked and I don’t know, that makes my heart break a little bit, but.

Bryan Bance (45:42)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Woo-woo.

Trevor Hoppe (45:58)
I’m glad to take it off and show and

celebrate what a body can look like. anyways, well, this brings us to our final segment, which I like to call Sordid Lives and Untold Tales or SLUT for short. What’s the sluttiest thing you ever did?

Bryan Bance (46:04)
Absolutely.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, as someone who has lived and explored sexuality for a long time, it was hard for me to narrow it down, but I’ll bring it to what we’ve been talking about and something kind of better focused. So in October of 2023, my birthday is in October, I had been going to New York Jacks for a while and had kind of built up a relationship.

both with people that went there, but also a few of the folks who organized the party. And so I decided in that year to celebrate my birthday at Jax. And so kind of in coordination with the organizers of the party, we promoted it online. People knew, you I was hoping that people would know that it was my birthday. And lo and behold, when we got to the party, which

was like a Sunday afternoon. was so heartwarming and also very sexy to have a bunch of men come up to me and be like, it’s your birthday? And come up to me and give me a little kiss or maybe a little tug on my penis type situation. And the hottest part is that at the end of the party, I ended up becoming the bukkake boy, if you will. And so to then have

You know, I honestly lost count of how many people it was, but to kind of be the center of attention to literally have all of these men like come all over me was one of the most kind of like hottest experiences. And I left there one, you know, sticky and messy, of course, but to also kind of like, yeah, my heart was warmed because I was like, it did feel like I was celebrating this part of me on my birthday and doing it in such a kind of a

public and communal way. And so yeah, I think that is one of kind of like the sluttiest kind of bator centric things that I’ve done. And I enjoyed it so much that I did it again this last year in October. So who knows, maybe it now will become this kind of annual, you know, birthday tradition where I get to celebrate it with a bunch of other, you know, Baders.

jerk off party. that’s the one that comes to mind for sure.

Trevor Hoppe (48:23)
I love that so much. That is a fabulous way to spend your birthday, if I do say so myself. Well, if people listening want to learn more about you or see this content that you are producing, where can they find you?

Bryan Bance (48:29)
Okay, I’m sorry.

Mm-hmm.

So I am on several different platforms. My at is xybkbry. So you can find me on Blue Sky. You can find me on Bate World. And you can also find me on Just For Fans. And yeah, that’s where you can find me.

Trevor Hoppe (48:54)
Fabulous. Well, thank you so much, Bryan. I appreciate your love for bating and sharing it with the world.

Bryan Bance (48:58)
Mm-hmm.

Of course. Thank you for having me.

Trevor Hoppe (49:02)
That’s our episode for today. Thank you as always so much for listening. And remember, if you’re not having your best sex, I’m here to help. My services as a sex coach can help you identify and overcome those obstacles that are standing between you and your best sex life. Find out more on my website, thebestgaysex.net. See you next time.

OVERVIEW:

In a world of fast food, fast fashion, and even faster Grindr hookups, slowing down can feel almost rebellious. But today’s guest, Manny Ocasio, host of the “Girl, Bye” podcast, is here to remind us that the best sex isn’t rushed—it’s savored. Manny shares how growing up with a gay dad shaped his journey, why anticipation and foreplay are everything, and how a washing machine made one encounter unforgettable. We also get into aftercare, pushing boundaries, and, of course, his sluttiest moment (college party, cops, and a twist you won’t see coming). Ready to take your time? Hit play.

TRANSCRIPT:

Trevor Hoppe (00:09)
Hey, welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Trevor Hoppe. Today’s episode is about taking time. You know, it occurs to me that in today’s day and age, saying you like something slow is kind of taboo. We want fast food, fast fashion, and even think about Amazon. Two-day delivery apparently wasn’t fast enough. We want it overnight. We want it now, baby.

When it comes to sex, just think about Grindr. The quickie has never been more in vogue. But today’s guest wants us to slow down and smell the rose buds. Manny Ocasio finds the pleasure in the anticipation, the waiting, the teasing. And when the moment finally comes, he urges us to savor it, not let it slip between our fingers.

Born in the hustle and bustle of New York City where life moves pretty fast, Manny now works on his Girl Bye podcast and Cosmic Stoners lifestyle brand from the sunny beaches of Puerto Rico where island time moves a little slower. Let’s listen in.

Trevor Hoppe (01:26)
Manny Ocasio welcome to the Best Gay Sex Podcast.

Manuel (01:30)
Hi, I’m so excited to be on this podcast. The set is gorgeous.

Trevor Hoppe (01:32)
Hey, bitch.

Thank you. We’ve renovated. It’s great. I’m thrilled to have you with us. You are talking to us from Puerto Rico. Yes. The lovely island of Puerto Rico. But before Puerto Rico, tell us a little bit about where you grew up. You obviously have the podcast Girl Bye Now. We’ll get to that. But just go back in time. Where did little Manny, where did you start your journey?

Manuel (01:45)
Yes.

Yeah, so I grew up in New York, New York City kid. I grew up on Long Island most of my life actually went to high school out there and then moved to Florida in my high school time, which was crazy. I advise anybody who has the opportunity.

really think about it before you make those crazy decisions. Because it was very different leaving in the middle of high school and trying to make new friends, you’re graduating with people you don’t know, all of those little things. So it’s kind of crazy. But I was in New York, moved to Florida. As we all know, Florida is Florida. So.

I, since then, graduated high school and been on the move. I’ve lived in a couple different states from going out to Kentucky and Ohio to living in the mountains in Virginia. So kind of been all over the place, spent a little bit of time in North Carolina and then decided to come out to Puerto Rico for a while.

Trevor Hoppe (03:07)
You have definitely been all over then. where did you remind me your New York was high school? High school was New York?

Manuel (03:15)
Yeah, so I was born in New York. I was born on Long Island. And I lived there until I was 15.

Trevor Hoppe (03:24)
Okay. And then where was I’m just trying to sort of set like

Manuel (03:25)
Yeah.

And then I went to

Florida and I went to Tampa, from there. Just north of Tampa, Florida, actually, because my dad bought a house out there, so we moved out there and then fun fact that not many people know. But if you look on my if you become accepted on my Facebook and are able to go that far back, you can see where I turned 18 and I had a Toyota Yaris, a tiny little like golf cart sized car.

Trevor Hoppe (03:34)
Ogen.

Manuel (03:54)
and I put my own hitch on the back of that thing and tied a U-Haul to it and I moved to Kentucky with that tiny little Yaris.

Trevor Hoppe (04:03)
I don’t think the Yaris is supposed to do that, but good for you.

Manuel (04:06)
No, it was definitely

dragging itself there. By the time I got there, I needed new tires for sure.

Trevor Hoppe (04:14)
And what was it like, I mean, did you know you were a little queer boy when you moved to Florida? Was that something you were already aware of?

Manuel (04:21)
Yeah, by that point, so I would say that up until like middle school, I was pretty, pretty much always pretty fluid. Luckily, I did grow up in a household where I had a gay dad. So I really, there were some like religious things and like family members that would make comments or say things or whatever, but like,

In my personal home, you know, I was never really like frowned upon. So my mom was really good about teaching us like love is love and you’re going to care for somebody because you care for them. Not really on like a intimate relationship wise, but more like, you know, if somebody spends time with you, if somebody is invested in you, if somebody cares about you, you should care about them and you should like, you know, build relationships based off of those types of things versus, you know, building a relationship strictly on sex in the beginning.

which I thought being a kid and being taught that really kept me open-minded, really kept me like, you know, I had a lot of friends. I had a lot of people that I talked through over the years. I was never a shy kid. Even moving to Florida, I built friends pretty quickly because I’m a very outgoing person. And I think that all kind of boils down to being that open person as a kid.

Trevor Hoppe (05:34)
And you said gay dad and you just breezed right past that, but we have to talk about that. So when did you discover that your dad was gay?

Manuel (05:38)
you

Yeah, so my parents got divorced when I was five or six years old. And pretty much shortly after that, my dad had his first partner and they were together. And his first partner, they were together for a really long time, maybe six or seven years, maybe eight years. I was really young. So I don’t quite remember how many years, you And then ever since then, my dad has always been

with men, you know what mean? So it was very much, you know, he came out, they got divorced and we kind of just lived life. Now as an adult, it’s a little different because now we learn a lot more about all the different situations in life. And, you know, I learned more about my parents’ relationships and things like that. So you kind of learn other pieces to it. But luckily enough, I got to live in a household where

You know, even though they got divorced, they never trash talked each other. They never bullied each other, things like that. Like we never got to see those types of things. They were always big on like showing us to, you can get dealt a bad deck of cards, but like you can still make it work.

Trevor Hoppe (06:52)
Definitely. what did it mean to you having a gay parent? I mean, that’s an unusual experience for most of us, right? Because most of us experience difference. And you experience this kind of similarity. Did you talk to your dad about your own sexuality?

Manuel (07:09)
Never.

Trevor Hoppe (07:09)
Really?

Manuel (07:10)
Yeah, I never talked to my dad about my sexuality ever in my life. I never actually came out to my family. Luckily enough, I was just like one day showed up with a guy and was like, this is my boyfriend. So, you know, I never really had like a big coming out moment or anything like that. I never felt comfortable enough to go to my dad about those types of things. think.

A lot of people don’t realize that like, even though you have a gay parent doesn’t mean that the coming out process is any easier. Cause I feel like a lot of the things that I did try to talk to my dad about in those early stages of me getting to understand who I was and what I liked and the people I wanted to be around. I got a lot of like backlash and I don’t want to say like,

he gave me bad advice, but I think he gave me advice from the concept of also trying to understand that like, if I was a cisgender straight male, my life would be different. And I think he wanted to give me the best advice that he could give with still trying to not want me to go through those downsides of life and understanding.

you’re going to get bullied. People are going to say things. You’re going to go through these pieces of life. So I think he wanted to help me avoid those things. But ultimately, I felt like he knew he couldn’t because I mean, if you were a queer kid in the 90s and early 2000s, you were going to get bullied, right? So I think it kind of just went through that.

Trevor Hoppe (08:41)
Yeah, definitely. But so you don’t have this kind of coming out experience. When did you start to realize that you were gay?

Manuel (08:48)
so it’s a funny story. I dated women, up until my sophomore year of high school. So when I moved to Florida, I was a marching band kid. And if anybody knows marching band kids, we were crazy, fun, always wanted to have a good time.

but I also went to a very competitive school for marching bands. So we went to a lot of band competitions. We had band camp. We practiced three to five days a week. I mean, it was a extraneous process being in band because we did want to win. We wanted to be the best. We were constantly, you know, in the top five in the state. Like our goal was to be successful in band. And there was a boy that joined the color guard team.

Trevor Hoppe (09:14)
Hmm?

Manuel (09:33)
that just so happened to catch my attention. And we spent a lot of time together. We lived, oddly enough, very close together. We lived enough close where I could ride my bike to get to his house. So I would get on my bike. I would go to his house. We would hang out. And then one day, we started making out. And that was that.

Trevor Hoppe (09:33)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

my god, this is like a movie experience. Wow. And did this person become like a boyfriend to you?

Manuel (09:59)
Yeah

Yeah, he became boyfriend of mine. I did a lot of firsts with that person. We had a good relationship for a while. I would say up until up until my senior year, I think we were like still close and still trying to like figure out life. But I think I was also trying to figure out who I was, what I wanted to accomplish.

Trevor Hoppe (10:11)
Yeah.

Manuel (10:29)
all the pieces of my life I wanted to like really live for. And I don’t have fears as you guys already know, because I can live anywhere and I’ll pack a bag and go and see what happens. So I think, you know, getting with somebody that really had the mindset of like, my God, this is my first boyfriend and I’m in love and I want to be married and we’re going to get married and we’re going to have kids and all that stuff.

I was terrified of all of those things, right? And I was like, there’s no way. Like, I just turned 18. I’m ready to go experience life. You know, I had Grindr by that point. And my friends were telling me about bath houses and…

Trevor Hoppe (11:17)
Hmm.

Manuel (11:17)
these parties that people were going to and these college parties and sex parties and things like that. And I was like, why would I want to not experience life yet? Because I don’t even know if I like those things or don’t like those things. I have never gotten that moment to try it or see it or be around it. So our relationship at that point kind of went left.

because I was ready to enjoy life and learn what it was to be an adult and they weren’t.

Trevor Hoppe (11:51)
Yeah, well, you you’re 18. I mean, who is ready to make those decisions at that age? But I just can’t even like that’s hard to even for me to fathom to have that kind of relationship like that in high school because it just was so different from my own experience. But is this your friends knew about this relationship? Or was this something you kept private?

Manuel (11:56)
Right.

No, I mean, we would go to Busch Gardens and hold hands all day. We would cuddle for hours. Everybody in band knew that we were together. He was the only one that wouldn’t be with the Color Guard girls on the bus. He would be with us band kids in the back of the bus because he wanted to sit next to me. Yeah, no, it was everybody knew everybody knew I’ve everybody knew. Yeah. I think actually let me not say that.

Trevor Hoppe (12:19)
my god.

very tender.

Manuel (12:39)
There might be a photo on the internet somewhere of us holding hands in Busch Gardens somewhere on the internet. Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (12:44)
well, that’s sweet. That’s sweet.

And so it sounds like you had some of your first sexual experiences also in the context of this relationship.

Manuel (12:52)
Yeah, some of my very like, the first person that I topped in my life was that person.

Trevor Hoppe (13:01)
Yeah.

Manuel (13:02)
And then the first threesome that I’ve ever done was with that person.

Trevor Hoppe (13:06)
Okay, how did just curiosity how did that come about?

Manuel (13:07)
Yeah.

That came about later when we were, so I went to college in Tampa, Florida. Went to college out there, worked out there, like kind of pretty much started spending a lot more time over there versus Spring Hill, which is where I’m originally from, which is like 40 minutes away. All of my friends ended up kind of moving that direction. So like that’s where we would go hang out and meet people and whatever.

And at this point, I was a college kid and they had graduated and we went to a party and we were doing all this, you know, meeting people, hanging out. We may or may not have been on Mali and we just had like fun.

Trevor Hoppe (13:48)
Aha, amazing!

Manuel (13:49)
You know,

and so life was an adventure and we just kind of that whole situation just kind of came upon itself. You know what mean? Like we were all hanging out. Everybody was hanging out, having a good time. We went to a house party after that. The house party turned into everybody kind of going their own direction and certain people going to do certain things. Certain people went home. Certain people went to their apartments. You know, we’re all in dorms, so like everybody’s close. So.

It just kind of, we were in a room, the three of us, and we kind of just went for it.

Trevor Hoppe (14:21)
Sounds like it. Looking back on those early sexual experiences, how did you figure out what you were into?

Manuel (14:28)
I YouTubed a lot. I don’t remember if everybody remembers, but there was a video, a YouTuber, I forget his name, but he would do YouTube videos on like being queer. And I remember the first time ever seeing somebody douche because he douche on YouTube. Do you remember this video?

Trevor Hoppe (14:30)
Mmm.

I do not know, I wish I had had

this video, but that did not exist when I was that age.

Manuel (14:54)
So,

yeah, so basically it’s a YouTube video and he’s like has like a curtain like on the back half of his body and like, so you can’t really see his ass or anything, but like you can, you get the concept of what we’re doing here. And they show you a douche and how to douche and they talk about how to douche and things like that. And so when I first ever started like having gay sex, I really was like, I don’t know that that’s for me.

Trevor Hoppe (15:05)
Uh-huh.

Manuel (15:21)
All the prep time, all the stuff people were doing, some of my friends were not eating. I’m like, how are you not eating? I’m not going on a date to not eat. Like the whole point of on this date is for the free food. So like there’s no way. So from there was kind of when I was like, I don’t think this is for me. So.

Trevor Hoppe (15:33)
Ha ha!

Manuel (15:41)
my sexual journey really like evolved itself over the years. I actually have been atop a majority of my life, which is funny because I get a lot of different answers from a lot of different people. But a majority of my journey has been being atop. I feel like the only times I’ve ever actually not feel like it is the truth. The only times I ever bottom.

has been for people that I have been in a relationship with. People who I felt a lot more comfortable with. I always felt like if this is a hit it and quit it situation, you don’t get the ability to get that close to me.

Trevor Hoppe (16:21)
Yeah, so I think I’m sort of the same way about topping, which is funny because most people are that way about bottoming. just for me, it’s kind of like this is a special thing that is just not handed out. Bottoming on the other hand, maybe not as different. So you’ve been a top most of your life. You’re figuring out.

On YouTube, that is again, just like a generational difference because I just did not have access to that. So that’s really kind of amazing to have that kind of resource as well as your friends. sounds like we’re also a resource around sexuality. Yeah, that’s amazing. Are there things you think you

resources that you wish you had had at that age, I’m just looking, I’m like, man, it sounds like you had a lot of assets to kind of understand sex and sexuality.

Manuel (17:06)
Yeah, think, I think, yes, I think I wish there was, better places to talk about certain pieces of sex. Like, yes, we had these videos about like, douching and things like that. But at the end of the day, they weren’t really, they could give you a concept in your brain, but you have to kind of like really go out of your way to like

research more and get to learn more and and get a little deeper because they were so high level right like even back in the day we had rules on youtube you can only go so far you know what mean so i do feel like i do wish there was some more resources i also wished back then that we talked more just about sex in itself like sex education

I remember being in middle school in New York and this could be like moving from New York to going to Florida. The curriculum in general, like from grade to grade and your entire life, like you are genuinely taught less in Florida than you are in New York. And so it was shocking to me to kind of go from New York to Florida and really understand the fact that like

Trevor Hoppe (17:56)
Mm-hmm.

Manuel (18:16)
academically, you’re so far ahead, they didn’t even have certain classes to put me in. I didn’t do a gym class my junior or senior year because I already had all the credits that I needed to graduate high school, which I found crazy considering if I would have stayed in New York, I would have had to continue to do gym till I graduated high school. You know what mean? So there were certain pieces that I thought were really interesting and

part of that was kind of like this sex education, home economics, things like that. When I was in middle school, and I’m sorry to the middle school if you guys get in trouble for this, but we used to have like a shop class where you had to like do oil changes on the teacher’s cars and like build a bridge and all that kind of stuff. And like, I learned a lot about like,

building stuff, doing stuff around the house, those types of things that I don’t think kids are learning today. I learned a lot about cooking in school, which was crazy. I learned how to make pasta. We made Rice Krispie Treats. We made a bunch of different things. So those really day-to-day types of things, I think we should have. And part of that, think, is that sex education.

We shouldn’t sit people in front of this old movie where private parts tinkle and like that’s how we’re teaching sex, right? I think that’s why I find your podcast so interesting and like some of the stuff that you do. I you know, I’ve read your book stuff like that. We’ve talked about some of these things because I find it so interesting that now we have not that we’ve never had resources, but like now they’re so easy to obtain for queer people today to.

listen to a podcast and relate to other people’s stories or hear different pieces of life. You know, you can watch a bath house on the internet. You know, before we had to go on LimeWire and try to download something and hope that it wasn’t, you know, the president saying that he didn’t have sexual relations with that woman.

Trevor Hoppe (20:18)
Do you remember when Madonna put out she like leaked her album and then she was like screaming F you at that? Yeah, exactly. my gosh. Throwback to some the older listeners to the podcast. Yeah, totally. So do you remember differences in that sex ed like specifically links that you learned in New York that like just were absent in Florida because I’m sure there were many things. There you go. Everything it was just absent. Yeah.

Manuel (20:37)
Florida had no sex ed.

Yeah, everything

was different. Yeah, we had no sex ed in Florida, none whatsoever. What we did have in our school was a parenting class where they made you take a baby home. And I was like, we’re teaching these people how to care for a child, but we’re not teaching them about condoms.

Trevor Hoppe (20:54)
Uh-huh.

America is quite an amazing place. I can imagine that that was a jarring experience to head down to Florida. I see that with my students in North Carolina. We don’t have consistent sex out across the state and.

Manuel (21:01)
You know?

Trevor Hoppe (21:12)
their knowledge is pretty limited. Even with the resources you mentioned, you have to go find those resources. They don’t come to you. So if you don’t know how or where to look, you know, you’re in the dark. And so I think many Americans, even though all the information ever created is like here, right? Like we still are very ignorant about so many things, especially sex. So I’m glad you found that douching video on YouTube because

It’s just an example of one of those things that like they don’t certainly don’t teach you in school. We can’t even fathom a world where that might be true, but as a gay man, like that’s kind of important.

Manuel (21:48)
I’ll send it to you so you can

link the link down below. We’ll send you the the early 2000s douche prepping sex video.

Trevor Hoppe (21:51)
Okay, yeah, check the link down below. I live.

That’s amazing. So you’re in Florida, you’re having this relationship, you go off to college. What kinds of sexual experiences did you have? Do you remember sexual experiences where you felt like you learned valuable lessons about yourself or your sexuality or sex in general?

Manuel (22:14)
a lot of lessons. where would you like me to start in lessons I’ve learned from people?

Trevor Hoppe (22:19)
Ugh,

how many frogs did you have to kiss?

Manuel (22:22)
Right, so I would say in kind of just thinking about my early years of figuring out being queer, figuring out the things that I liked, wanting to try things and being fearful of some of those things, I grew up in a time frame where sex was still really talked about in a very negative way, especially in

like my household and like just the people that I kind of communicated with, you know, a lot of people always constantly, you know, really focused on like not having sex till you get married type of stuff, those types of things. And I never understood how somebody can get married without test driving the car. You know what I mean? I don’t know if anybody else can really think about it, but you know, for me, I knew that if I wanted to get into a relationship and really care for somebody that if that

part of me was not to the standards of what I wanted it to be, that I would not be fully invested, right? So knowing that I kind of already knew my entire life that sex was a part of my love language, it’s a part of my attention, it’s a part of getting to know me in a much deeper level. And so in that timeframe, I wanted to experiment and find things and get to know people that

maybe could take me to some of these places where I didn’t feel so alone, right? And so like, I don’t know about most people, but going to your first bath house is terrifying. The only person I’ve ever heard talk about that was RuPaul in RuPaul’s book.

RuPaul talks about the first time kind of going to this cruising spot and kind of getting there but never actually going in, right? And then like going there a couple of times and then finally like getting the energy and the want to actually like walk through the door. And I think being able to kind of meet other people and kind of go through that was what helped me kind of get to those.

points in life and meet people that would encourage me to maybe explore and see these things. And some of the things that I’ve learned from going to some of these places and being a college student at that time was that college kids, some of them are nasty. It doesn’t matter how gay you are, you’re not always clean. And I never understood that. And so, you know,

That was really where I would say I learned the most about myself, what I’m willing to put up with and not put up with. You know, for me, cleanliness is a huge thing and a huge turnoff. If, you know, I understand that gay sex, for instance, is not always the cleanest situation, but it doesn’t have to always smell terrible.

right so

Trevor Hoppe (25:13)
Yes, well, yeah,

that’s a very, yeah, that’s a base level kind of thing. Yeah.

Manuel (25:17)
Right? It’s like pretty bare minimum. So like those are things that I learned in that timeframe of life was like, you know, hygiene was huge for me. If you know somebody and people you could call me shallow in the comments. I don’t care. But like if there is a bad smell, I already know that that is going to be a huge turn off. Like I will not be able to even perform because I know that like in my head it’s already going to turn me off and it’s already going to kill the whole vibe.

So those are things that I learned the very hard way in these stages of like, you know, you’re in front of somebody and like, you just can’t get hard. Like that’s the craziest moment in your life where you’re like, am I broken?

Trevor Hoppe (25:59)
Yeah,

I mean, the human body will betray you sometimes, even if you want it to work, it might not always work. But again, you’ve breezed past something that I think you must now unpack, which is your first trip to the bathhouse. What was that like?

Manuel (26:14)
Yeah, so my first trip to the bath house was interesting. I went to a bath house in Clearwater, Florida. If anybody is listening from Clearwater, Florida, you probably know. But you walk in, it was interesting. I didn’t do anything with any other partners in that first kind of…

walk through and like getting to the bathhouse. I did go with one of my friends who after two seconds of walking in the door was gone. Left me completely alone and then when I found him later he was in a room with like five other dudes and I was like thanks for leaving me high and dry but get it girl like I’m not gonna yuck your yum get in that.

Trevor Hoppe (26:45)
huh. Yeah.

Great friend, yep.

Manuel (27:02)
So I spent just a lot of time like walking around and getting to understand what was going on, trying to map in my head, like how do you even communicate in these places? Like not a single person was speaking basically. You know, you have these different rooms where people are doing all kinds of different stuff. There is, you know, a large number of people that I was highly uninterested in.

so I thought, you know, just kind of taking it all in and understanding what it was and then remembering you’re in Clearwater, Florida. So that should tell you a little bit about like who’s there, right? but it was interesting. It was an adventure for sure.

Trevor Hoppe (27:36)
Yes.

Manuel (27:43)
And then I went to one other bathhouse in my life, which was in New York. I went with a couple of friends on a trip. We went to New York. We had a great time. We went to the bathhouse. And I indulged in a couple of different things in the bathhouse. I just never felt that that was my place. sexually.

What has always driven me is the like intimacy of sex. It’s more of the foreplay and the journey versus the end results. So my whole journey has always been that. It’s like really, I like the foreplay. like…

making out, I like touching each other, I like going from one room to another room, you know, throw you on a washing machine and turn it on. Like, I like to have sex for a long time. I like to enjoy the journey, experience it, be in the moment. And I felt like the bath house was fun. I went with my friends because they wanted to go, so I wasn’t like gonna be the Debbie Downer and not go. You know, you get a blowjob and you walk out of the bath house. Like, it’s really not…

I never thought that you’re not going to find the love of your life in the dark rooms of a bathhouse.

Trevor Hoppe (28:51)
Well, I don’t know about all that, but probably not, but who knows? Stranger things have happened.

Manuel (28:53)
Maybe

Trevor Hoppe (28:57)
Where did you feel like, when did you start feeling like you were having sex where you were like, is amazing, like this is what sex should be?

Manuel (29:05)
so when I got into my first what I would consider like real relationship, I was in a relationship for almost five years. We got engaged. so I would say it was a very serious relationship. this was the first relationship where I lived with the person, introduced them to my entire family. a lot of different pieces of my life kind of went into that.

Trevor Hoppe (29:18)
Yes.

Manuel (29:28)
and oddly enough, you know, I was pretty much a just regular person, just living life, kind of working, doing things in my relationship, kind of in this bubble. but our intimate moments were extremely intimate and we did, you know, we, met in Florida.

because I had moved back after Kentucky and stuff. We met in Florida. We ended up moving to Virginia together. So like we spent a lot of time and moved and stuff like that. But that was when I can say was like my initial person that I felt like this was what I wanted. This was like, you know, most of the crazy movie type.

You know, you get home from work, start making out at the door. By the time you get upstairs, you’re naked, you’re in the shower, you’re bathing. Like, all of that to me is part of that sex journey and part of that like arousal and getting people to that point. So, you know, that was the first person that I really feel like I had sex that I genuinely enjoyed consistently. As we kind of got to know each other more and experienced more.

Trevor Hoppe (30:36)
Mmm.

Manuel (30:40)
and that was the first person that I truly let myself go sexually for, where I bottomed, we would tie each other up, we would play with toys, like all of the things. I was here for anything that would extend the play time.

Trevor Hoppe (30:56)
Mm-hmm. I hear you talking about time a lot. What does that mean to you?

Manuel (31:01)
I feel like our lives are consistently on a thousand. I know that most of us today, anybody listening to this podcast can probably say, damn, it’s already the eighth of January or the, well, cut that. It’s already the, you know, it’s a, we’re already almost in February, right? And like so many people can always constantly just be pushing ahead. Like can’t believe we made it to 2025 already. So I think time is going so fast. And

Yes, I like to take time and spend it with my friends. And I like to take time to just enjoy life. I take time and sit at the beach, things like that. think that ability to cut those minutes out of your day, to enjoy it, and to just experience it and live in the moment, we don’t do enough of it. And there’s some of us that don’t do any of it. And weirdly enough,

I had an extremely close relationship with my grandmother, which most Hispanics, I would say, do. And my grandmother used to constantly tell me in my very early years of life, like, take a moment and like, smell the roses, look at the roses, pluck a rose, clean the rose, put it in a vase, right? Like, don’t only stop to smell the rose, but like,

Trevor Hoppe (32:09)
Uh-huh.

Manuel (32:18)
take one, enjoy it for the seven days it might be alive and like be in the moment for that and enjoy those pieces of life. And oddly enough, she traveled a lot. She would, you know, you would call her sometimes and she would be like, I’m not home. I’m in Canada or like on a cruise or something like that. And so I find time to be so invaluable to

just giving it away for like work and stuff like that. You’ve got to take it and enjoy it because before you know it, you’re going to be dead.

Trevor Hoppe (32:51)
Ha! Yeah.

Manuel (32:53)
And then what do do then? Right? Like you can’t take time with you. So like you can crunch as much stuff into time. But unfortunately for me, I really like to take the time to get to the nut because the nut is 10 seconds.

Trevor Hoppe (33:10)
Sure, yeah, I get that. mean, like, it’s a small part of the experience. I guess the sort of finale, the grand finale, but it’s not a grand finale if there’s not a show before it. So like, it kind of has to balance out. that’s kind of what I hear you saying. But I also feel like I hear you saying something about that sex may be one area of our lives where we break free from

the kind of regimented life that we live.

Manuel (33:38)
Yeah, I 100 % believe that. a lot of people, you know, I feel like a lot of people take sex, and maybe this is like in the straight world, just because like, everybody’s doing stuff and like, you’re just, you’re just taking sex as like a 10 second thing. Like, oh, let me, you know, I talked to like my straight friends and like all of them talk about sex being 10 minutes. And to me, I just can’t fathom that.

Trevor Hoppe (34:06)
Right.

Yeah.

Manuel (34:08)
You want

me to do all of this work for 10 minutes?

Trevor Hoppe (34:13)
Yeah, I have a friend who jokes like if the sex is not, it doesn’t take as long as it took me to clean out then like it was not worth it, which speaks to that. Yeah. Yeah.

Manuel (34:21)
You know what I mean? Like,

that’s crazy to me. To be able to think that you are willing to put so much effort for something that’s gonna last as long as a high, smoke a blunt and just enjoy that high. Like, it’s gonna last longer. You could do both, right? True.

Trevor Hoppe (34:37)
Well, you could do both, yeah.

That’s a very interesting perspective because I’ve heard other guests sort of like TT Baum was talking about sex as adult playtime. And I think that speaks to a similar element that it like, takes us out of the normal constraints of day to day life and time is one of those. So I just wanted to kind of draw that out because I think that’s an interesting perspective.

Manuel (35:01)
Like think about it, would you take your child or your dog to the dog park for five minutes?

Trevor Hoppe (35:09)
Right.

I don’t know.

Manuel (35:09)
You

wouldn’t, right? You’re going to take your kid to the park because you want your kid to run around in circles and be exhausted after. So why would you think that, you know, adult playtime, I love that terminology of like, this is our time to be able to explore each other and get to know what each other likes. And maybe if you’re in a relationship or not in a relationship, if you are having a sexual encounter,

Granted, there are people out here that only care about their own nut and not always other people’s nuts, which…

That’s a battle on the internet forever. But I think ultimately, if you’re having a sexual experience and you’re with someone else and you care about their journey in that moment and your own, maybe they like things you don’t. And so maybe you do some of that and some of what you like and you kind of go along through the game, right? Like I’m the type of person where

Trevor Hoppe (35:45)
Uh-huh.

Manuel (36:07)
If there’s something that I don’t necessarily like for myself, but you like it to be done to you, I would do that even if it’s not 100 % of a turn on for me in that moment. Because the trade off is that you’re going to do something that I like after. And we can continue to explore what we do and don’t like. And maybe there are things that you come to a point where you’re like, this is a hard no for me. But.

You won’t figure that out unless you try and experiment in these different pieces.

Trevor Hoppe (36:36)
Yeah, there’s yeses, there’s nos, but there’s also this stuff in the middle that’s like, I don’t know, maybe. And you kind of have to play with that and let other people, it’s a push and pull, certainly, a negotiation to figure out what that ideal situation looks like, what the maximum potential of two people coming together could be. What does the best sex look like for you?

Manuel (36:56)
Right.

Ooh, I’ve been thinking about this a lot. And I think there’s a couple of things that go into it.

Trevor Hoppe (37:01)
Yeah.

Manuel (37:05)
I like it to be, first of all, it needs to be long. If we’re not passing 30 minutes, this was a quickie and this is taking too fast and I’m probably ready for round two because we didn’t go long enough, right? So it’s gotta be long. It’s gotta be spontaneous. Don’t send me a calendar invite for two weeks from now.

Trevor Hoppe (37:09)
Yeah.

interesting.

You

Manuel (37:30)
Right? Like don’t pencil me in between your meetings. That’s not to me. That doesn’t give me a turn on of like, my God, you were thinking about me and you just, you know, wanted to fuck right now. Like, let’s just go. Like I want it to be spontaneous. I want it to be in the moment. Like we should be doing something and just have fun. but ultimately like long play is my, is my gig. Like,

Trevor Hoppe (37:57)
Mmm.

Manuel (37:57)
my biggest funnest things is like going out to dinner with a vibrator butt plug-in and I just control it while we’re having dinner and having a good time. Then you come back to the house, like you keep it going and it just lasts a long time of like that, that excitement of what’s going to happen next. Where are we going to go? What are we going to do? Those types of things I feel like makes it.

more of a game and more fun and more interactive. And we’re not just like, you know, plowing each other and just moving on. We’re really getting to know each other a lot more. We’re getting to know what our limits are, right? You’re getting to learn what your your thresholds are for certain pieces of sex. And, you know, we all take different levels of pain. We all take different levels of restraints, right? You know, I’m a person that

I would, I love tying people up. You’re not tying me up though.

Trevor Hoppe (38:54)
Yeah, sure.

Manuel (38:56)
There’s no way. So like, I think we all learn those pieces of ourselves as we kind of go through this journey of figuring those little things out. But ultimately, best sex for me is something that takes time and has, is spontaneous, but has like reason and attention and a real story to it.

Trevor Hoppe (38:57)
Yeah.

Huh. Can you think of a time where…

like what if you were gonna and I’m sure there are many encounters right and so no diss to any other story in your Rolodex but like are there is there a time that comes up where you’re like that was it like man that was pinaccle Sex.

Manuel (39:31)
yes.

Trevor Hoppe (39:31)
Hahaha!

Manuel (39:33)
I would say, so let me set the tone. We are, I wanna say, yeah, it was like winter time. Yeah, winter time. So it’s cold out. So you can wear like clothes, like you can put on a jacket, you can put on a lot of stuff. So I would say sex that I remember the best is, you know,

lot of foreplay so went out to dinner a lot of foreplay we had the I forget what the thing is called but anyway it’s like a little plug that you put in you can control it on your phone and you go to dinner

Great conversation, normal conversation at the table, work, life, goals, things like that. you can play with the app. Turn it up, turn it down, things like that. Somebody’s ordering food, you turn it up. How do you interact with other people that have no idea what’s going on? So that type of fun to me is really interesting. And it really shows you a different side of people.

the sex encounter is much longer, right? You’re starting really from before you even leave the house and it goes through the dinner and getting back and kind of not even really making it into the house before you’re like kind of going at it and really getting started, going into the home, showering together, like that whole journey. And then propping them up on top of the washing machine and…

Trevor Hoppe (41:03)
Ha ha ha ha

Manuel (41:05)
turning that thing on is my favorite thing. And at that time, yes, at that time I lived in this small apartment. I had a washing machine that had to be from like the eighties or nineties that when you turn that thing on, it shook the whole house. I don’t know what the name was, but it would make a lot of noise and it would shake the whole house.

Trevor Hoppe (41:08)
Really?

You

is a speed queen probably. I know exactly the type.

Manuel (41:31)
And so, you know, that was like part of that adventure. And then it’s the, you know, kind of going from there, going to our room, finishing in there, and then spending that time after, not only like just there, like cuddling and talking and things like that, but like, you know, taking the time to, are you okay? Does anything hurt? Is it okay what we’ve done? Like things that you like, don’t like, things like that.

and kind of going over the encounter, what their favorite parts were, what my favorite parts were, and kind of talking about that journey together, especially right after it happened so that we’re able to clearly kind of rethink the evening and really understand like where the hard no’s are, you know what mean? Because that was always my biggest thing was if there is a hard no, really learning that and remembering that because, you know,

I want to be able to push my boundaries and push their boundaries and get to know all the things we do like and don’t like. But you also want to be considerate of what other people feel and what they like and don’t like. And really asking, most people may not even tell you if you don’t ask.

Trevor Hoppe (42:43)
So I’m just noticing that you’re using a lot of terms that are so close to ideas in the BDSM world, but are not. Like aftercare, for example, is a way that people in BDSM talk about that moment after where you check in and you kind of, it can be quite emotional to sort of go through the encounter and make sure that everyone’s okay and check on those limits. That would be another word that like, so I’m just curious, are you,

Is BDSM, like is that a framework that you feel, because you mentioned restraint as well. I’m just trying to piece it all together.

Manuel (43:18)
Yeah, I don’t consider myself a person in the BDSM space because there are a lot of things that I don’t personally like or would not do to myself or other people. But there are things that I do like, like, you know, I believe in tying people up. I think if you, you know, in a very safe and understanding way, you can use string and things like that for not only

tying someone up, but the textures, the way it feels on your body, the way that maybe you can tie somebody’s chest so that you feel like that pressure that maybe you can’t do with your hand or your arm, but you can rope in the chest part and then pull from the back. And it’ll compress almost like a full body hold type thing. So there’s pieces of it that I think are really interesting. And I think.

This is part of what I mean by, you know, don’t necessarily have to become, you know, a queen of a dungeon to enjoy certain pieces of BDSM or any other, you know, things that people enjoy. And I think being able to experiment in those spaces, everybody should have those opportunities and feel that it’s okay.

Because I do feel like a lot of these spaces are gate-capped. A lot of these spaces are not talked about. A lot of these spaces, you know, a lot of people just try to steer people away from. And I think unless you know for a fact that you’ve tried something and you don’t like it, it’s very hard to say that you don’t like it. You might be surprised, you know, at the end.

Trevor Hoppe (44:53)
Yes, well, hopefully you’re surprised in some way. It’s always good to be a little surprised with sex. I find that really interesting because those are principles that are more universal than they’re generally regarded as. So I just wanted to take a moment to check in on that because especially with the aftercare stuff, it’s fascinating to me that

We need a word for that, just the idea that you might talk to someone about the sex you just had. most of us don’t. We’re just terrified. What do you learn from your partners in those moments?

Manuel (45:25)
Ooh, you learn a lot. You learn, the main thing that you learn is how close you really are with that other sexual partner. You know, if it’s a one night stand, they’re probably not gonna say anything, right? So if you do have like a one night stand and you try to like check in and stuff, if they haven’t already grabbed their clothes and got out, you’re probably not going to get that far in that conversation.

Most of the people that I’ve had sex with in my life, I’ve been in relationships with, know, so in those relationships, I’ve always taken a lot more time at that because I also feel like that’s a time for us to connect. That’s a time for us to, you know, if everything is okay with sex and things like that, we can also talk about other things. We can also move into other conversations. We can, you know, kind of get that conversation out of the way.

And then you also learn like pieces of it that maybe people didn’t like or or or moments that maybe you were too aggressive or not aggressive enough or things like that where not everybody’s comfortable to like stop in the middle and be like, yeah, like be more aggressive or you know, whatever. Most people will use a safe word and you know, you’re being too aggressive, but some people are afraid to tell you to be more aggressive or to do something specific. And I think those are the moments where

you can kind of check that off your list and say, OK, this is something that they said that I didn’t do now, but maybe I’ll try the next time. And because I do like sex to be more spontaneous, you want to know those things ahead of time. Because if you do have another encounter, either quickly or later or whatever, you want to try to remember those things so that their experience is better every single time.

Trevor Hoppe (47:08)
Yeah, I think people are, especially after a very intense encounter, it can be a very vulnerable state. And so I think that’s why One Night Stands hit the road is because there’s a recognition of that vulnerability and a fear. I think people are scared of what they might say or do in that post-nut clarity moment or whatever, you know, that can be quite intense.

Manuel (47:30)
Yeah.

Trevor Hoppe (47:32)
So I appreciate that perspective because we haven’t talked about it so much on the show, but I think after care or whatever we want to call it is is so critical because

Manuel (47:43)
Yeah, I think it’s

more than just aftercare. think that’s the difference. think aftercare, especially in the BDSM world, is really used around the really understanding of are you hurt? Are things OK? Was something too hard? Things like that. Where I think we should really get to the point where if you’re having

multiple sessions with similar partners, right? Because if it’s a one night stand, mean, grab your shit and go. I mean, what else can I say? But if you’re really trying to continuously have sex with the same partner, wouldn’t you want it to get better? Wouldn’t you want it to improve? It’s not going to happen just out of the blue. It’s not just going to miraculously get better the next time if you don’t actually talk about it and express

how this could have been better.

Trevor Hoppe (48:32)
Amen. Communication. It’s like, it’s such a fundamental basic idea, but it’s so many of us don’t practice it, but, and we wonder why we don’t have great sex. amen. Communication is key. I always like to end with my favorite segments, Sorted Lives and Untold Tales. Slept for short. What’s the sluttiest thing you ever did?

Manuel (48:53)
Oof.

Okay. I said that I would, I would be very open on this podcast. So I’m to be very open to this podcast. Um, so sluttiest thing I’ve ever did. I was in college. went to a college party and we got way too drunk. Like it was bad. Like cops showed up everything. It was a mess. Like the worst.

party I ever went to in my life. But halfway through the party, there, so it’s like an apartment. It’s a dorm, but like it’s not a regular college dorm. There are apartments that are just on campus. So it’s a typical apartment. You walk in, kitchen, two bedrooms, two bathrooms, blah, blah, blah. Balcony, beautiful.

So, walk into the back room and there is an entire orgy going on in this back room. And so, I joined in and just kind of got to start indulging into the different things. And that was the first time ever in my life that I tried to bottom like just whimsy because there was this guy in the room.

that I found very, very, very, very attractive back then. And I kind of didn’t want to say no. And I didn’t want to like miss my opportunity, I guess. And yeah, and he didn’t actually top me and my emotions were broken. So I topped the guy next to him and then I left.

Trevor Hoppe (50:28)
Aww.

Manuel (50:33)
So that is the sluttiest thing I ever did in a quick moment.

Trevor Hoppe (50:39)
Awwww, college parties. I mean, that sounds ruckus with the police coming, so I’m glad it was a… that you walked out of that party. Safe and sound.

Manuel (50:48)
Yeah,

I mean, they weren’t gonna take me. The cops weren’t gonna take me.

Trevor Hoppe (50:52)
Yay, take me. my God, that’s hilarious. Well, of course you have your podcast Girl Bye, which people can find online. Where can they find that? Where can they find you? How can people find more about you?

Manuel (51:03)
Yeah, so you can find the Girl, Bye podcast at Girl By M.O. on Instagram, TikTok, all the social platforms. You can also listen to the podcast on YouTube and Spotify. And yeah, season two is coming out next year. This is the official place I will announce season two coming out. So. Yeah, this year, 2025.

Trevor Hoppe (51:26)
But you mean this year, This year, I know.

It’s here.

Manuel (51:31)
I’m still

in 2024. I’m still in 2024.

Trevor Hoppe (51:34)
Tell me about it, I feel you.

Manuel (51:36)
Yeah, but everybody

should be on the lookout. Girl, Bye season two is really focused around education and, you know, getting more people to talk about their lives. I think we don’t spend enough time highlighting queer people. And, know, your podcast Girl, Bye podcast, you know, if you have anybody that you’re listening to that’s queer, we should continue to promote these things because only

us can educate each other and you know clearly the schools are not doing it and who knows if we even have a board of education next year.

Trevor Hoppe (52:13)
Oy vey. Yes. Amen to that. So thank you for doing the hard work of helping educate the world about queer people and lifting up those stories because I think that’s so valuable, especially over the next couple of years. So thank you, Manny. Thank you for your time and your insights. I really appreciate it.

Manuel (52:26)
Yes.

Absolutely, anytime. I had a blast and this is the best gay sex podcast on the internet

Trevor Hoppe (52:40)
That’s our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. Really please. And if you enjoy the show, take a second, give us a review on Apple, Spotify, whatever platform you use. Really, it means a lot and will help spread the message to other people. So thank you. And as always, remember, if you are not having your best gay sex or someone in your life is not having their best gay sex, I can help.

My services as a sex coach can help you or your friend identify and overcome those obstacles that are standing between you and your best sex life. Find out more on my website, thebestgaysex.net. Till next time.